Energy Suspension (ES) Bushings.

Hello all.

Went to Crappy today to pick up a few Bushing Sets from ES. I decided to replace all the Bushings I can as I obesrved most of them are all shot (Cracked, Sloppy and Loose).

So far I have alreary replaced the Sway Bar Set. Today I pick-up the Rear End Control Arm and the Sub-Frame Mount sets. I'll be going to the car club next Tuesday to replace the Rear End and to have a look at what is involved in order to replace the dreaded Sub-Frame donuts. (I just ordered the Front End. The last one I'll be ordering will be the Track Arm Set)

Any of you ever replaced the Sub Frame Mount Set??? Do I have to drop the XMember and Steering Rack or can I just remove the Four Bolts and do the swap leaving the Sub-Frame in???

Ghislain.

How much did they run you at Crappy? I have to find out what the part numbers are for my 1G AWD, so I can do the same thing. I have an email from Nino Mastricola on the sub-frame topic, but it's printed, and not on my system.

Here are the PN for the 1G AWD;

Front End Control Arm Set 5-3108 ($59.62, same as yours)
Rear End Control Arm Set 5-3113 (Mine was 35.75, different from yours)
Sub Frame Set 5-4105 (Mine was $49.67, different from yours)
Front Sway Bar 20mm 5-5106 (Mine costed about $25, different from yours)
Rear Sway Bar 20mm 5-5108 (Includes End Links)
Tie Rod Boots 9-13101 (Two per pakage)

Colour code; You add the letter of your choise after the PN. (5-5106G)
B- Blue
G-Black (Don't ask...)
O-Orange
R-Red
Y-Yellow

Hope this helps.

Ghislain.


[This message has been edited by Ghislain Goudreau (edited November 04, 2000).]

It helps, Ghislain. Thanks! I'm also planning on getting the Suspension Techniques SwayBar set, which probably comes with it's own bushings, so I'm debating whether I should get the Energy ones or not.

I'd say wait for the new Sway Bar.

I asked crappy last summer about a new Sway Bar for my 1G NT. The ansewer I got was that Suspension Technique only had an Additionnal Sway Bar for my car. By Additionnal I mean that I would of have to leave the original Sway Bar on and add a second one in front (Additionnal)... I tought that was BS. I never followed through.

How much did they quoted you and do you know if that Sway Bar would fit a 1G NT???

Ghislain.

[This message has been edited by Ghislain Goudreau (edited November 05, 2000).]

They're right, but I can't remember the details. The ST set has one 'add-on' bar, and one replacement bar. I can't remember which had the add-on, front or rear.

Add on, that is the word I was looking for...

I was told (If I remember right) that was for the front for a 1G NT (NT don't have a Rear Sway Bar). I'm not sure if the 1G AWD T has the same Sway Bar/Control Arm.

Keep us in touch when you get it.

Ghislain

Poly bushings dramaticly improve handling and road feedback at high speeds, g-forces. There is some extra harshness but not much. Magnus automotive did mine and others (lots of brute force, pry bars, torches are used). They need the whole day to do them all, not including front sub-frame, not worth it unless you have money to burn. I may do them still however but I road race so...I have heard of someone using a slide hammer to get them out without lowering the steering rack.

As far as sway bars, don't buy a front sway bar unless your car doesn't have a stock one in the front already. Just replace the bushings with poly. I would add a larger one in the back only. Talons understeer, increasing the role stiffness in the front will make it understeer more (bad) A large on in the rear..you are reducing understeer which is good for performance handling.

I got a 1G NT. It does not have a Rear Sway Bar. This car does not Oversteer as much as a AWD. The slight Oversteer I got by replacing the front Sway Bar Bushing is a bonus. Oversteer can be good on the track as long as it can be controlled. In my case (FWD) it's not out of control. A little more could not hurt.

I'll be replacing those bushings myself. Got access to a Auto Club with all the good tools; Lift, Hydraulic Press and a "flaming device"...

Also have access to a "Slide Hammer". I'll be looking at the Sub Frame tomorrow after I do the Rear End Control Arm Donuts.

Ghislain.

Mmmm.

Just came back from the Auto Club. Not good at all...

I went early this morning in order to replace the Rear End Control Arm Bushings. Put the car on jack removed the wheels and tried to remove one of the Blots... Snap. Neeless to say I was a little upset. I had a look at it. I'll now need to drill it out. Easyer saied than done as I'll have to remove the Exhaust and the Fuel tank in order to have a clean shot at it. Fuel Tank is full and I'm by miself. sh!t. I packed up and will be back on my next days off.

I also have to do some work to my wife's car. Can't have the car out of service because I'm going to work tonight.

Don't you hate when that happends.

Ghislain.

Hahaha! Ghis, if that's anything like when I first started hacking at my AWD? Get ready to drill and grind snapped bolts out. ALOT. Even soaking them in good penetrating fluid amounts to nothing in most cases.

Nino, I was planning on both bars because it gives more lateral control to your ride. I didn't plan on going nuts with oversteer, but I'd planned to control that through wheel adjustments...

Yeah you can laugh all you want.

No need to get upset about it. I had a better look at it this afternoon. I should be able to use a reciprocating saw and cut the F*&?"$ bolt just outside the Control Arm. I'll then drill out what will be left inside the Anchor Nut and buy a good old bolt at the local Hardware Store. Well, that is the plan.

I'll bring a Digital Camera along, who knows that might become a VFAQ...

Oh and by the way, that was without busting a knuckle.

Ghislain.

wow, I'm impressed.
I have yet to break a bolt without breaking skin.

Ask Scott Petrie about what happens when the crowbar comes loose when you're prying with all your might trying to get an axle cup out of the tranny

""Nino, I was planning on both bars because it gives more lateral control to your ride. I didn't plan on going nuts with oversteer, but I'd planned to control that through wheel adjustments...""

I'm afraid you don't know what your talking about, do what ever you please.

Thanks for the reply guys...

Ghislain.

Nino, I can't tell you to screw off, because you're a nice helpful guy, and probably know a bit more than I do about handling since you have more practical experience. I probably just phrased that statement incorrectly.

The sway bars help cornering by transmitting some of the stress across the body to the other wheel, no? This should stiffen up the ride, and make handling more responsive. Mine are gone so badly that when I hit washboard ruts going around a corner, the car tracks *straight*. It will also cause understeer, since the car is no longer flexing to 'help' it through the corner (a little). This is where a rear-only swaybar increase can help.

However, with both bars (and upper STB's, etc.) in place, you should be able to control under/oversteer by adjusting wheel camber (or toe, or caster), correct? You can call me stupid all you want, but I KNOW this how it's done on the Acura NSX (although it wears tires in 40k kms (: ) and how most PRO racing teams set them up...

I don't do any real racing, and I usually don't go into corners fast enough to provoke understeer unless I'm at a fun weekend SoloII autoX. Maybe I'll try a road race track run in the future, maybe. All I want is the best handling that I can get.

Well you can tell me to screw off if you wish, I have thick skin (some may say a thick head). I will try to expand on a few things. First of all, understeer is the tendency for a car to track wide on a turn, also know as PUSH, the car wants to push to the outside of the turn, that is you turn right a lot put the car wants to push left and you need more steering input, thus the car is UNDER steering. Now most mfgs design and build cars with understeer built in because it is easier for the AVERAGE driver to control an understeering vehicle in MOST conditions. Some rear wheel cars such as a corvette, viper will mostly oversteer because they have high power and are rear wheel drive. Talons understeer or push LIKE PIGS in stock form. Both FWD and RWD talons push, 1Gs and 2Gs.

There are many many ways to change handling on a car. Spring rates, sway bars, bushings, tires, alignment, tire pressure.....

You should not compare apples to oranges, the NSX is rear wheel drive super car made to handle and is not a talon in any shape or form so don't go there.

Now for a talon, for better handling you want to make the car neutral, to do this you want to make the car understeer less. Now sway bars are used to control body lean and increase the roll stiffness. The larger the sway bar, the greater the roll stiffness. If you increase front roll stiffness, you add UNDERSTEER (which is bad. So to lessen understeer you either a) decrease front roll stiffness or b)increase rear roll stiffness.

Some racers actually REMOVE front sway bars to lessen understeer which you most likely don't want to do as the car will lean more. So you leave the front alone and do b) increase rear roll stiffness by adding a larger sway bar in the rear. This will make the car understeer less and more neutral. You can also increase roll stiffness by increasing spring rates. If you make the rear very stiff, the car will oversteer. IF your car moves around a lot in ruts, sway bars will not help. Check all you bushing and the alignment first. Worn shock will do that as well. I would not worry about camber, keep it normal unless you are on a race track.

LIST for improving handling, in order of importance.

Tires, springs, shocks, rear sway bar, strut bars, bushings. alignment should be in spec. For race track, extra front neg. camber is good as well as a bit of front toe out. Excess neg. rear camber adds understeer as the rear will not slide out as much.

Hope this helps.

You see? I knew all that. (:

My upgrade path is exactly that. I'm just doing some planning ahead. I have just got 16x7.5" wheels, with a tire purchase (probably 245/45 Pirelli P7000SS's) planned for the Spring. My springs and shocks are newer than the car, as I swapped on a 75k km set to replace my 190k km ones. The bushings are completely shot, almost all over. I'm replacing these with Energy Suspension ones. Then I'm going to probably go with KYB AGX's and Eibach ProKits. Then comes the upper STB's, and then the Sway bars. So it was all a little out of order. (: Having a slightly stiffer ride would be good, but with our potholes and bad roads, I almost dread it.

When it comes to the handling part of it, I'll have to see what comes. The NSX handles so awesomely because it's preset with camber and toe adjustments that pre-tension the suspension, making it more lively with better turn-in. I'm a pretty good driver, and I know how handling and weight transfer all work, but I'd want to work up to a totally neutral car gradually. Understeer is a nice safety feature. (:

I have Suspension Techniques springs and front and rear sway bars with poly bushings, and experience oversteer when I push my AWD around corners. I didn't even know it until my shop told me, but I also have, what he referred to as, "dog-bone link" swaybars in the front. He thought it was extremely bizarre to have 2 sets of sway bars, especially these "dog-bone" kind.

I much prefer oversteer to understeer as it's easy to correct. Of course, my previous vehicles were RWD, and I've become accustomed to correcting oversteer.

M.
p.s. Troy, I used to have P7000 Super Sports on my car, and all I can say is... Wow! The Toyo's I have now are GOOD, but don't compare to the Pirelli's. Of course, the Toyo's were $100 cheaper per tire!

[This message has been edited by marty edwards (edited January 18, 2001).]

Heh, I had a guy tell me the 7000SS's were garbage. I'll have to see what the prices are like when I'm ready to buy.

What Toyos do you have? The Proxes FZ4? I've heard bad (and one good) things about them. Maybe I'll lean toward the Kumho ECSTA 712's. Marta? How are those tires doing?

Yep, the trusty FZ4's. 215/40/17. They're alright, although I wish I'd have bought 225/45's. I'd buy 'em again just because they're a little on the cheaper side. Cornering, they don't give as much warning as the P7000's before they break their grip, but just enough if you're paying attention (ie: radio off). One sure benefit: They give far less road noise than the Pirelli's!!

M.

It must depend on the tire, wheel and setup. One guy told me the FZ4's squealed like stuck pigs, and another told me his 7000's did the same. And other's have told me the opposite. (:

Well, ya. Launching at 5000 they squeal! But not a peep cornering - or sliding. And neither did my Pirelli's. And dats de truth! It could be, as you said, because of my set up. Who knows? I just know I like it...

Scott, I changed all the bushings in my AWD talon last month. The front sub-frame bushings were a little difficult to change. I dropped the the control arms first, the 2 crossmembers, the gusket. Then I dropped the whole subframe with the power steering rack and sway bar still attached. Torch out the old bushing, put in the new and put back together in reverse order. I may have forgotten a few steps cause its been 1 month since I did this.

Call me if you have any questions.

Len...

Hey!

Dou you guys think it could be done by leaving the Sub Frame on the Car??? Once read on the Digest that it could be done...

Ghislain.

Scott, Hows the car handle with the new bushings. I havent had my car out yet to test them. My car still on blocks, more work to do still.

Len...

TX for the info Scott.

I just made a small page about the replacement of ES bushings to my sled. Again it ain't much but it might give an idea to those that might want to tackle the project. Pics are not the best but oh well that is what you get for dealing with an amateur. LOL

I included the ES Part Numbers for the 1G (FWD & AWD) and little trick on how to remove one of the Front Control Arm Bushings.

I could add the 2G PN's!!! If anybody cares for the info.

http://www.lks.net/~ghislisa/Bushings.htm

Ghislain.

Yes, please add them.

Jeff Mitchell

It will be done in a few days.

Ghislain.

Ghislain, you guys have a local Auto Club on your base? I just joined the one here in Halifax.

Heh, Full-sized shop with 8 bays and lifts, any tool you'd want, BIG air compressors, tire changers and balancers, wash and paint bays... *Garrrgle* (:

Our Auto Club is moving this month. Have been a Member since I joined in 86. They are greath.

I like to rent a bay for 24 hours at the time. It's nice to go in the middle of the day when everybody is at work, nobody to bug you.

We're also going to get a wall mounted Spring Compressor... That would be handy for your futute Suspension work. Heck drive to Trenton. LOL

BTW, I updated the Bushing page with the 2G FWD and AWD Part Numbers.
http://www.lks.net/~ghislisa/Bushings.htm

Ghislain.

[This message has been edited by Ghislain Goudreau (edited February 13, 2001).]

What sort of prices are you guys paying for renting a bay, or for being a memeber??

What sort of prices are you guys paying for renting a bay, or for being a memeber??

Membership is $35 a year. $5 an hours for a bay with a hoist, $15 for a full day.

I think the regular bay (No hoist) is $12 a day and $3 an hours.

Each base car clubs have their own membership prices and bay rental fees.

Ghislain.

Yup. That's close to what we're paying. I don't know what kind of spring compressor they have there yet. I didn't really look.

Unfortunately, you have to be a Forces or RCMP member, or a Civilian or Family (guess who's family? (: ). Charter members are allowed, but only if a full member sponsors them with the base commander's approval. This might be harder than it seems, as the member is FULLY liable for anything that happens with you. Unpaid bills, broken tools, etc...

What does the old man do??? Sailor, Zoomies???

Ghislain.

Nah, he was a radar tech for years (Goose Bay, Barrington) and then switched to CE as a fridge tech. That's what he's still doing as a Civvie.