Wow, 2g rear suspension is a HUGE PITA. Help!

OK, I am trying to install rear shocks and I want to replace the bushings at the same time (urethane). I figured I would just take the knuckles off so I could press the old ones out. Pretty much the only bolts on the car I haven't touched. Not working out so well though.

1. There is one bolt that is like 6" long that won't come out, it hits the gas tank and does not allow me to remove the lower control arm (the one that connects to the sway bar). Do I really have to cut this off?

WTF mitsubishi?

2. My toe control arm bolt seemes to be seized in the inner sleeve (took the nut off but nothing moves). THis has to be fixed to lower the car, also the ball joint boots are toast so will have to be replaced.

Do I have to cut this stupid thing off as well? Pretty much have to cut the arm in to 2 or 3 pieces to get at it. ARGH.

3. ABS sensor seems to be completely seized into the knuckle...cut it?

4. How do I disconnect the parking brake cable...I'm NOT cutting that! Do I take off the disc and go from that side?

Other than that it is going well.

So what you're saying is you should have left the wheels on and the car on the ground and stayed happily oblivious to the disaster that lay underneath.

A lot of those issues seem to be pretty common to 2Gs, based on the stuff I've read/seen over the years.

Yeah, except I have to be able to adjust toe to lower it and there is no way I am putting on my new suspension on almost 20 year old bushings.

Castle Thrust. Find it, stock up on it, and SOAK the underside of your car with it. It comes in a spray can, and makes rust it's bitch in a matter of minutes.
http://www.castlepackspower.com/index.cfm?Page=Castle%20Thrust

Screw those bolts as they hardly do anything when they aren't seized.
Spend a couple donaro and do this:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/handling-tech/382953-cheap-rear-toe-arms-solution.html

I have this in my GSX and it works flawlessly. No issues to date.

Looks like a great product, know of anywhere it is sold locally by chance?

If enough people are interested, I could do a group buy through my work. We need it because we operate snow plows straight from the 70s. Our newest acquisition is an 86 GMC....

theres no way around cutting those bolts, and buying new ones. Been there, done that.

My toe sleeve was seized as well. Heat, wd-40, more heat, lots of bashing. New bolts will be needed as well. Ziggy stocks them.

Parking brake cable comes off when you remove the bearing hub from the knuckle, you can then get inside the inner workings of the parking brake assembly and take it off. The cable steel sleeve that leads into the mechanism will most likely be rusted to the hub plate, pound it out.

Ill give you my next pay check if you can get an ABS sensor out without bashing it out.

Good luck

From the shop or BS?

Everything Rob said ----^ Been there done that as well.

Fortunately those rear ABS sensors are usually already broken by the time you get there.

Thanks for the tips.

Just to confirm Rob, I have to remove the bearing flange (i.e. remove the bolts on the inboard side of the upright) in order to remove the hand brake cable?

I'm going to see if I can drop the rear sub frame to remove the long bolts tonight (that seems to be what the Mitsu manual says to do), otherwise the CHOP.

Johnny do you have the part numbers you used (and where you got them from) for those arms? Or at least make and model year. I don't feel like standing around in a parts store for 2 hours test fitting parts...would make toe adjustment a LOT easier!

I love my car, I love my car, I love my car.

Oh and my ABS sensor exploded when I tried to get it off, so it is already toast.

All I have is a 2002 (or similar) intrepid, and I used the same outer tierod ends that are used on our car. Went to crappy tire for them. The whole thing (with paint) cost about $60

Johnny,

All I can find are toe links that have threaded ends, none with the threaded rod like the ones you showed. I don't think I could find tie rod ends to fit them, also they are like $90 each from partsource.

The wrong ones

The threaded rod is from the Intrepid. It's actually 3 pieces. The dual end threaded rod, and the 2 end caps of which you only need one.

did you look at the link though? These ones have no threaded rod. So while they would work fine for their intended purpose they wouldn't work here.

How long ago did you get these? You said you got them from CT?

Whoops, just saw that link now. No, I'm not using those. I'm using the ones from the tuners link. I just picked up an additional set of outer tie rod ends (same part number for a 2G Eclipse/Talon) and they threaded right up to the intrepid part.

If this isn't want you're looking for, then I'm confused somewhere....

I think the confusion is that when I try to buy the intrepid arms they look like the ones in the link I posted(which are wrong).

So where and when did you get yours, cause I can't find them in that style.

Speaking from the experience of a guy who's just redone his entire rear from the door jams back....

2G Rear suspension unless it just rolled off the factory floor can be a pain in the ass.

I cut my old bolts out and bought new ones. I also replaced the arms with new OEM. Set it and forget it.

The knuckle bushings are a pisser too. Good luck pressing in the new urethane ones. Make sure you have lots of lube and patience.

I'll add that getting the old ones OUT is MUCH more of a PITA than getting the new ones IN

Especially the two at the bottom. Trailing arm and toe arm. They are at an angle, and maneuvering the entire knuckle to a position on a press, or mill, trying to get the bore perpendicular to the axis of the press, to hack them out is just Faking awesome, You'll see.

Also, dont waste your time on Energy suspension, go prothane, the material is better, and the kit comes with WAY more parts. I had pressed out all the bushings in the knuckles and arms, only to find that the energy kit was missing almost half of them needed.

Also, the knuckle bushing for the upper control arm, Definitely use prothane, the engergy bushing is too soft, and from what Ive read, and told from personal experiences, they wear out in a year.

I am certain I have a solid 20 hours worth of work in my rear end rebuild. Its just what it is.

Also dont drop your subframe unless you want to do those bushings as well. Just cut the control arm bolts. The cost of a bolt is not worth the hassle of fighting with the subframe if you dont intend to rebuild it as well.......ie bushings and such.

Hack, cut and burn. That is the only way to fly.

Those 2G Rear Lower Control Arms and related Hardware are not that expensive. Save what can be easily removed and replace the rest.

Like Rob said some of the Rear Knuckle's Bushings and be a pain to remove. Fire would be my choise if I'd have to do this again.

Use lots of lube before you push the new Bushings in.

Ghislain

Fire takes care of the rubber part, but what about the sleeve? They are always welded with rust to the casting of the knuckle.

I tried on an arbour press, I ended up going to a manual bridgeport mill, and plunging with a cutter into the side of the sleeve to get it to collapse and fall out.

Not fun.....at all.

You can just cut the sleeve with a torch in 2 spot then just tap it out. Of course if you are not skilled with a torch probably better off paying someone to do it.

I know Brad has access to a machine, which is better than melting your lower control arm press bent sheet metal with a torch

An oxy/acetylene torch is the only way to get it hot enough on the cast parts. Propane will just make you swear more

Oh well if he has a machine then yeah. Propane is garbage other then to cook hotdogs. I have done hundreds of bushing and never melted any contol arms

A 2g lower control arm is very flimsy, the material is actually thinner than the sleeve of the bushing. It would be sketchy to try and burn it out. The knucle however, I agree, torch the thing if u have the means.

Back to the Intrepid control arm issue, I just went to a wrecking yard and pulled them off some destroyed '00 or '02 model. I didn't buy them new but I did refinish them before they were installed. Costed me a whopping $10 for both. Woot.

Thanks for all the tips.

Johnny: ah,that makes sense. Yours are OEM. Not sure I have the patience to go to a wreckers, I may just buy OEM ones.

I got everything off except passenger axle won't come out. Seems like tomorrows problem. Put in a valiant effort to get everything off tonight but whatever. I ended up dropping the subframe to get the long bolts out, it actually came down really easily (rust is not USUALLY an issue on my car). The toe arms I cut off, ABS sensors just smashed until the wire came off, sensor didn't budge!

For the bushings I think I'll just mill them out if the 25 ton press doesn't work. I have a whole bunch of urethane if I'm missing any bushings too!

I've been keeping an eye on this thread because I know I'll be in this position soon. Definitely a lot of great info, as usual!

As for those rear toe links - Brad, I'll be at work tomorrow morning (parts supplier) and I was planning on trying to find a combination that works. You linked a Raybestos part that was built a little bit backwards, but I'll see if ACDelco, Moog, Mevotech, Beck/Arnley, or Dorman offer it with the male threads we're after.

I'll see what I can find, and post up any part numbers/approximate costs if I'm successful.

I borrowed this wicked tool a few months back to get the rear axle out of my subaru. It clamped to the hub using your lug nuts, and has a big acme screw that pushes the spline in.

Maybe Stephen knows what its called? I have yet to see one in stores. I want one badly to have on hand. This tool was invaluable!

I think I've seen something like that in the tool catalogs at work. I'll have a look tomorrow and text you a price if I find it.

something like this ?

http://www.foerch.hr/documents/thumbs/-1750202911_20111801082848_150x150_Pad_1_0.png

Same idea but thats a gear "puller".

This tool "pushes" and clamps to the hub face via your lugs.

I looked around on the web last night and it looks like aftermarket pieces for some Hondas (preludes, early accords) might work. They have the same ball joint/bushing combination and look around the same length. Megan racing sells them.

Jeremy: I'm thinking easiest would be those backwards intrepid arms with different male threaded tie rod ends. Nifty cross reference here. I just hate the thought of putting new OEM arms on and having to deal with their stupidness next time (I tend to adjust things a lot)

http://www.moog-suspension-parts.com/Universal_Outer_Tie_Rod_Ends.asp

Male threaded tie rod ends was the other option I was going to try. It all depends on how busy we are though Luckily I start full time again on Monday so I'll have more time to play with parts

Thanks for the link! If I can get the entire assembly (link and tie rod) in Moog, that would be my preference.

ahhh, now I get it

Sorry for the confusion, I dot have any problems with English until it get's technical ( still have to learn the names of tools and technical stuff, hope you guys will bare with me )

When you find that tool, please post a picture of it.

It is called a hub press or axle press. OTC tools makes it. And it works awesome

Rob, if you find one let me know where you borrowed it from (assuming you don't purchase it), as I could most definitely use it if/when I ever need to try and get my driver's side front axle out.

Rob (or anyone): do you know what fails in the ES rear upper control arm bushing? Does the hole just elongate or is it the ears pulling off?

I bought the ES kit years ago and just never did the rear.

Are you talking about a "hub puller"?

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/t_10153_12605?i_cntr=1366377979898&tName=front-hub-puller.html

Those are them.

Pretty sure I have seen that first one at Princess before.

Some are too shallow to get over the Axleshaft the first one is a POS. Look at the 5th one.

This one is the only one I can find at princess.
http://www.princessauto.com/pal/product/8309262/Pullers-And-Bearing-Tools/Slide-Hammer-Puller-Kit

Nice, not sure how I missed this tool every time I go there.

Those things work really well, work best if you tighten it up then hit the screw with a mallet/hammer.

Rob: did you read my question re: what fails on the upper control arm bushing (1 page back before the side track)?

The energy suspension kit upper bushing is not good a enough replacement for that spot, they wear within a year or so. The rubber splits and falls apart from what Ive been told from some one with experience, and from what I read on Tuners. I was suggesting you go with the Prothane kit, its bushings are better for our cars.

This of course is assuming your replacing all bushings in the knuckle.

I've used that tool before. I failed when trying to remove my rear axles the first time. I ended up stripping the "acme" screw right out of it. oops....

Lower quality one's will.. The trick is if siezed that bad you tightend the sh!t out of the axle nut that frees up the rust. I once had one of those cheaper slidehammers pull the threads in mid swing put my hand and the tool threw the window of the car beside me.

LOL!! Great mental image there. Thanks for that.

I used a small slide hammer in my trade also, and I made my own. I decided to "improve" upon the one I copied by making the area the slide works against much larger, same diameter as the sliding weight. Very first swing I pinched my flesh in there and had quite a red spot for quite some time. Needless to say, I undid my "improvement"

Insert end mill makes quick work of the bushings!

Johnny, any luck on the frankenstein toe arm?

What is an Insert end mill?

What do you mean? Mine work perfectly and allowed me to lower my car with keeping the rear toe in spec.

My bad Johnny, it was Jeremy that was going to look for mating pieces to frankenstein a toe link out of part store parts. I'd love to stand in a parts source for an hour and open every box and try to fit things together but somehow I think I would wear out my welcome.


An insert end mill is an end mill that uses indexible carbide inserts. With a nice tough insert material it will go through anything without the worry of chipping or breaking if you don't have the right speeds or no coolant or whatever. Makes sparks, smokes, bangs, smashes. You get a strong edge from the insert with the strength/fracture resistance of a tool steel shank. I use it like a sawzall...Rob would probably not approve.

I used to break end mills all the time with fab work (nothing is ever straight, always chattery etc), the inserts seem to be indestructable.
http://cfnewsads.thomasnet.com/images/large/029/29954.jpg

Hydraulic press with about 5t got the first two bushings out of the knuckle, the last one is at a weird angle so I poped out the centre metal piece using a bolt and some washers then clamped it in a vice and plunged the insert endmill in a couple places to cut the outer ring and it poped out. Took all of 5 minutes.

Jesus still sounds like greek to me. I will stick with my gas axe. Is it just a bit on a rotary tool?

Yeah I'm going to take a look tomorrow when I'm at work.

ATTA BOY!!!

Finally got the other knuckle off. Only one problem...its still connected to the axle! I tried an axle pusher+mallet+tightening and loosening it, everything but heat, for about 5 hours and it moved about 1mm.

I'm hoping I'll find a way to mount it in my press to get it out, otherwise I'll just drill the fugger out and get a new one.

Can't wait until the next time I do this and it comes out all coated in copper.

You can take the axle and bearing out as one piece. That would make it easier to get set up on your press, and then separate the bearing and axle cup.

Where are you located? Want some of that thrust stuff??

Okay, good news/bad news.

Bad news: we were swamped. One guy had back problems and didn't show up at all. The other slept through his alarm and showed up late. The first bit, I was alone

I barely had any time to look into these, but what I did find was that Moog has the same design as the Raybestos one. Mevotech generally copies Moog. I can look into Beck/Arnley and ACDelco from home (and will do so). We had nothing in stock for me to play with, and I didn't have time to check my warehouses (but I'm sure one will have them).

Oh... and I lied. No good news

Well my good news is that my press goes up to 35t, even though it is only rated for 25t. It spit oil all over the place but the axle came out. I ended removing the CV boot and splitting the axle as suggested so I could get it in the press.

Now just need to make a custom upper bushing and figure out this toe arm thing.

Make sure you didn't mushroom the end of that axle! I did that once. I didn't notice it until I got it back in and the castle nut wouldn't fit. Kinda went like this ".... why isn't thi...fffrrrraaaaacccckkkkk......"

Yeah, I'll just turn down the end of the thread where it is fubar'd, no way the nut is going on as it is.

Bushings are on, I sandblasted any rust and will paint today/tomorrow. Installation is the reverse of removal;)

I see the light! Thank you all for you inspiration along the way. Hopefully Jeremy comes through and we can ditch the stupid OEM toe control arm.

BTW if anyone is ever doing this I'll help you out by pressing the old bushings out on my hydraulic press. You'd be insane to do it any other way.

And where are you located for that?

hamilton/ancaster

Hmmmm... Could work.

Bradley, I assume that means that when we do our cruise this summer that you will be joining us. We cruise through the hamilton ring on our way to cayuga or just on our way to ancaster.

We'll see. I joined up a couple years ago, harder now with two young kids!

Alright first drive around the block tonight!

For the toe arms this is what I ended up doing:

Rear toe control arms from a '00 intrepid (brand Mevotech). This has a ~1" bar with female threads on both ends (one right hand one left hand thread), both M18x1.5. Each end has a threaded in bushing. I shortened the bar by a bit on either end and threw out the right hand thread one.

I bought a tie rod end from a '95 talon which has a female M14x1.5 thread. I made an adapter which is M14 to M18 male to male to attach the tie rod end (material is 17-4 which is high strength heat treatable stainless steel). Overall length is about 13" with some adjustment on either end.

I also made spacers to go on either side of the bushing to fit the actual space available (80mm width) and reduce the bushing bore down to a 12mm bolt.

Final piece you need is the washers that go on the frame side of the car. I made my out of 3/16" aluminum, they are round approx 32mm OD with the sides flattened. I believe you could just use the OEM ones there if you wanted.

I originally tried a male tie rod end for a '95 intrepid but the taper on it was not the right angle (note ours is a 7degree angle), my adapter that I made spaced it too far away from the arm and when I tightened the nut it broke the thread off at the pin hole. If another male ended tie rod end could be found with the right thread then it would make everything a lot easier.

Adjustment was easy and it looks trick.

Nice overhaul and good info Bradley!

Sorry to hear the tie rod off the '95 wouldn't work! Glad to hear you got everything sorted out anyway.

Hopefully I'll be able to piece together a more bolt-on setup as the summer goes on. Once I'm moved and have my car on the road I'll be able to spend more time getting something set up.

I'm sure I'll be bugging you when it comes time to get this setup bolted on to my car!

Interested to see what you did. Have images?? I'm just curious why you needed the M14 to M18 adapter.

The DSM tie rod end is known to have the exact same taper as the rear toe arm. Unfortunately it's a female M14 thread, and the aftermarket toe arms for the Intrepid use an adjusting sleeve with an M18 female thread.

The adapter was to make sure he had the right taper for the application, while still being able to mate to the arms that he just spent a bunch of money on and can't return after cutting

I guess we did something completely different then. For my setup I was able to use the same outer tierod with no issues. Would still like to see though

Yeah, the first problem we ran into is that aftermarket lateral links for the '00 Sebring use an adjusting sleeve rather than an adjusting rod (which is the OEM style). The OEM style threads into the DSM tie rod, the aftermarket ones do not.

I don't like getting junk yard parts and using them, so I wanted something I could buy new. The Arms you used, Johnny, when you buy them after market they are female rather then male ended, so that screws everything up.