Design Project Ideas

As some of you may know, I'm currently studying mechanical engineering at the University of Waterloo.

I will be going into my final year come Fall and as part of my credit/course requirements, it is necessary that I do a design project.

This being the case, I want it to be automotive related. Originally I was going to do something for the Formula SAE team but I've decided I want to do something for my own vehicle(s) or just something interesting in general.

So, if any of you have any project ideas (remember, I will have 6 full courses in the Fall as well as other commitments, so it needs to be somewhat reasonable in scope) that would be cool to see/try/test on a DSM or otherwise (I have a '69 Malibu as well), let me know. Powertrain (and to a lesser extent, drivetrain) is what interests me most, but vehicle dynamics, aerodynamics, etc. are definite possibilities as well. If I do decide on a project sooner, I can start getting the wheels turning and so I'd like to at least get an idea of what I want to do.

Low budget is also ideal!

We also have an engine dyno here




Possible topics:

- Some sort of engine development
- Turbo technologies/development
- Proper development and aerodynamic analysis of front aero/ducting/etc. for the Talon (a la Andrew Brilliant for the 2G).

Variable vane turbo. I know it's been done, but if you could simplify the concept, then we might be getting somewhere. PM me because I have some interesting ideas.

center clutch system.. to be able to disengage and engage the rear wheels while driving. Ken block and tanner foust have it in their realy fun awd fiestas.


Or a 30-70 split center dif.

A DSM that actually makes you money!

A 1g billet DSM front knuckle that converts it to a 2g/EVO wheel bearing, evo caliper and to use evo suspension. Correcting all suspension geometry for being lowered, bump steer, roll center and full suspension travel.

A 1g could use evo suspension all the way around if this was designed. Its on my to do list.

I have a 1g knuckle, a evo knuckle, wheel bearing, evo rotor, evo caliper all for mock up and measurements.

As for a design project which i'm sure you'll have to write a report for you cover the FEA in stress analysis of the design, the correction of the suspension design operating outside of OEM specifications, braking ability and making use of updated technologies form the EVO suspension.

Ok, so Mike has some pretty good ideas

there all good ideas..

This has actually been one (of many) thing I've considered and have read up a bit into, although not on any sort of extensive level. I'll shoot you a PM to see what you've got in mind.



Would be pretty cool/sweet to try. I'll add it to the list, although I think this would be more along the lines of a 'tinker at home' kind of project for myself.



It's funny, because I have thought about this (although not as indepth-ly as you clearly have) numerous times before and just in the past few days have been looking up 1G/Evo suspension combinations (as a number of people have done it...the issues is actually more with the rear than the front, at least in terms of mounting) and what-not. I'm VERY interested in this idea and will be in touch with you.

I know embarrassingly little about suspension/vehicle dynamics but it is something I have been itching to really delve into, as I'm a road course guy and this stuff makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. If you (or anyone here) has any good books/sources to learn more then feel free to pass them on.

I don't have to start doing anything (officially) for this until Fall term begins, but I'd like to pick my project within the next few months and get a good grasp on it so I'm not rushing to do it last minute come Fall, when I've got a full course load. Having the summer will also give me lots of time to learn all the stuff I'll need to know.

As for a report, there will be a huge one, including a presentation for some of the profs (this is a report course).

I don't currently know FEA (or CFD), but I am enrolled in both of those courses come Fall. That being said, I would love to learn it sooner!

Mike, expect a PM.

Awwww, no PM for me lol

I like the centre clutch idea.

Read again.



I like the centre clutch idea too, but I'm most likely going to focus my efforts on powertrain or vehicle dynamics. Possibly aerodynamics but that is likely a little advanced for where I am right now. (At least in terms of being able to demonstrate proof of concept analytically).

Are you looking for less parasite drag, or are you looking for more downforce/handling characteristics?

I want to design a body(kit) that will provide exceptional downforce/handling characteristics as well as exceptional cooling for the rad/intercooler, brakes, etc. Most people call me silly, but I want to make my 1G a road course beast.

I will be the first inline to see it. When I drive my car, road course beast is definitely not one of the things that comes to mind.

An excellent resource, this should be standard reading in case you haven't already seen it. Covers all aspects from Aerodynamics to Suspension and "Written for both the engineer and the automobile enthusiast"

http://www.millikenresearch.com/rcvd.html

We used it for our FSAE car way back in the 90's! Spawned many design projects for us.

Ahh yes. I have seen that book around the FSAE room here as well. It's definitely one of the more well-worn books! I'll have to give it a read.

I REALLY want to attend an OptimumG training session. Claude Rouelle is incredible and is the lead judge at the FSAE competition in Michigan (and also at the newer Formula North in Barrie). One of the guys on our FSAE is actually working for him right now after he got a personal invite from Claude during judging sessions. He also got personal invites from quite a few other judges...he's somewhat of vehicle dynamics whiz-kid to say the least!

I'll have to look more into the Optimum software as well.

So when are you going to come Brightside any pick up the materials to start the project?

Brightside will sponsor you if you do!

Pretty sure I'm gonna go with this project. Kills three birds with one stone:

1) Gives me a good project to do.
2) Forces me to learn a ton about suspension/vehicle dynamics and also FEA.
3) Will have a sweet setup



I've had finals, which is why I haven't even had a chance to PM/talk to you about it...but, I finished my last one this morning so I'm FREE!

I've got this week and next week off and will be back home (RHill), so I'll be by, don't worry.

I'll shoot you a message soon. Just cleaning up and running errands that I've put off for the past while.


For what it's worth, I'd still like to hear other ideas if anyone has. Even if I don't take them on as my design project, I'm always interested in new ideas for stuff to try/dig into!

Sal, you best be starting a thread with lots of pictures when you start this project!

Good stuff on the finals man. Congrats and happy summer car time.

There will be pictures. Lots of them. And there will be a full engineering design report (including engineering analysis), should you/anyone care to read it. Once I start digging into it I'll also be throwing up a post on Tuners to get some input from some of the guys over there.



Thanks! Couldn't have been a more perfect day to end - this weather is AMAZING!

Guess this means it's time for that AWD swap, eh?

I was just about to head over there and start making some room to work with.
Might start by fixing my driver window and diagnosing the disgusting sound coming from my front passenger speaker... What's nice weather with out solid beats?!

True dat!

on that note, anyone have a solid lead on someone who does audio repairs?

What sort of repair?
Is it you that had the rear issues a few months ago?

Have never had 'beats' in the Talon since I've owned her. Makes the drive to the SO and back quite enjoyable. Haha...Malibu doesn't have 'beats' either, but who needs beats when you've got a roaring SBC under the hood

I don't believe that was me. It crackles under bass. No physical damage to the exterior of the speaker (cone, magnet, shroud, VC, etc) It's an mb Quart component 6.5"

Crackling is usually just a loost connection/contact. see if there is anything loose and resolder it.

I could have a good idea for you...

Last thing I figured out and invented got "stolen" by Pagani.
Have you decided to go ground up and begin from scratch, or use something and modify it ?

Is there a way we could chat?
Noticed the DSM chat ain't working

Hey Salomon, have you decided to start on this.
I have been trying to figure out if there is a budget option for rally suspension so I was just doing a bunch of reading on the evo viii suspension on the 1g.
Here is what I found, figured you might be interested. http://www.galantvr4.org/ubbthreads...amp;Number=208738&page=0&fpart=1

A little teaser for you guys. Currently working on the proposal...my attention to detail and not wanting to leave anything out is going to be the damn end of me.



I will be using various programs to aid in the design of the front knuckles, but the main one (besides my CAD software) will be Altair Hyperworks Optistruct to maximize strength and minimize weight. Here's a little video showing what it does, albeit in a MUCH shortened timeframe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-DBpMKxKQc

A few key points:

- Mine are going to be one piece (billet aluminum) unlike the Magnus multi-piece ones (which are 2G only, anyways), as a single piece design is much stronger/more desirable

- I'm making it so the Evo 8/9 brembos are bolt-ons, no brackets necessary

- 2G/Evo bolt-in wheel bearing will be used and a direct bolt-in, versus the awful press-in style 1G wheel bearings/hubs

- For the scope of this project/paper I'm keeping the suspension pickup points the same, but I'd like to ultimately modify those as well to directly accept the Evo suspension (vs. the slight modifications currently necessary) as well as to change the pickup points for the control arms, once I do a full suspension geometry analysis. Of course, this also requires custom control arms, but I plan to make those as well in due time

- Ideally, I'll make two versions, the one I'm designing now that will be a direct bolt-on piece (but with brembos vs stock calipers), and then the 2nd one will have the top modified slightly for direct Evo shock bolt-on and possible modified suspension pickup points, depending on how much time/effort I decide to dedicate and if I deem it a worthwhile endeavour


If the design goes well, I will be making rear 1G ones and front & rear 2G ones, if someone feels like paying for me to design them

The program you're using reminds me a lot of Catia and MARC Mentat. Looks fun to do either way!

2G hub is a brilliant idea. If I recall, they aren't that pricy either. If you can do anything, you should make 2G rears to accept the front hubs as well! Those rear hubs are frakin expensive!

Looking forward to updates!

Magnus sells them for $1500 for the pair, but it's a poor design and requires custom control arms.

For 1Gs I want to offer a version that uses stock geometry and custom geometry (requiring custom control arms, etc.).

For the 2G, I will likely only make one design with custom geometry as the 2G hubs are already bolt on and if I am going to go through the trouble of redesigning the upright, it will be done with no holds barred. I know there will be more of a market for the 2G ones anyways as there are quite a few very serious road racers running 2Gs out there.

I thought that the 2g kids just replaced their whole hub when they needed to replace there bearings?

Why the evo suspension? This doesn't seem like the cheaper option to go with so why wouldn't you just go with a nice set of coilovers? or is it because the evo suspension uses larger bolts and is believed to be stronger?

EVO suspension because EVO suspension has been much more developed then 1g DSM suspension has.

The goal of this project is to develop something that works REALLY well and adapts to many different configurations of cars.

Cost is likely third in this development to function and adaptability. This goes against most DSm'ers beliefs.....stop being cheap!

I hope to support Salomon in this project. I have already given him an EVO and DSM knuckle to measure all the pick up points.

Salomon, I forgot to tell you that the DSM knuckle i gave you is a FWD knuckle which is identical to a AWD except the ear for the tir rod is slightly lower because a FWD sits lower (its a benefit if you lower your AWD). If you want an AWD knuckle, I have one of these also.

The first sentence is all I needed not being cheap, just trying to be informed

I figured a good coilover setup for a DSM was as good as anything else.
I remember Salomon had posted up about some really expensive/impressive coilovers that were available for the DSM.

Bryan, the best suspension options available for the 1Gs are Evo 8/9 suspension bits that have been modified slightly to fit the 1G. The Evo 8/9 suspension is almost a direct bolt-in, particularly in the front. It will require minimal modification to the design to make it work directly as a bolt-on.

To give you an idea, look here: http://www.muellerized.com/products_1gdsm.html (These are the ones I posted up quite a while back). You're looking at easily $3-$4k+ just for the shocks/struts for 4 corners from Ohlins/Hot Bits/etc. and that doesn't include any of the other suspension components nor does it include proper setup, which is easily more than 50% of what goes into making a car handle well, regardless of how good the components you use are. If you go through the Mueller site you can see that you can easily turn that $3-4k into $8-10k+++ VERY quickly. Again, for nothing other than your struts for four corners.

When I get a chance, I will post pictures of the two knuckles side-by-side and you will see just how damn near identical they are.

As Mike mentioned, cost is literally the last thing I care about. To be honest, the largest cost in something like this is the R&D. I'm doing it myself and I'm even getting a credit out of it, so there's no monetary cost (to me) in that sense. It's a LOT of work, but I'm getting a lot out of it that will help me more than just on the track. Materials and machining ARE very expensive, but luckily I have some generous offers that will help cover most, if not all of the expenses for the first set I make (for myself).

Mike, thanks for letting me know that it's FWD. I actually have a pair of spare AWD front knuckles, so I will compare and measure all 3. I have to speak to Rob, as he mentioned that he could CMM them for me, which would be far more ideal than trying to build a jig and taking hand measurements.

Yaaaay more 1g parts
I want my car to outhandle a porsche.
Make it happen Salomon.

Will do my best. But, moreso than almost any other aspect of a car, suspension/vehicle dynamics is one area where you really need to 'pay-to-play'....especially in these cars.

I definitely know all about the 8/9 setup did a ton of research on it as I was searching for the bits.
The reason they are not direct is the part that bolts to the hub is much larger on the evo (so there is need for spacers) and pretty sure the bolts are larger too.

I am hoping that through watching your progress and reading all of this I will get an understanding of what exactly is needed for a proper setup.

I think that's the way something like this needs to be done! Then you can make sure you are doing things proper without worrying about a budget!

Well look at it this way, with these knuckles you will need to run the Evo Brembos OR any brake kit meant to fit on the Evo 8/9, there's money right there. You will need to run Evo suspension, again, more money right there. If I change the lower pickup location then you're looking at a custom lower A-arm to do it properly (I'd switch to a spherical bearing, etc.)...a lot more money...so, yes, these will be expensive but it's everything else you need for a complete setup that is really going to add up. Unlike engine/power mods, suspension is one thing that is best upgraded all at once, versus in bits and pieces.

All said and done, for a full-out race suspension/handling/dynamics setup (custom knuckles, custom control arms, a-arms, race struts, big brake kit, tubular front and rear subframes, bushings, etc.) you're looking well into the 5-digit territory. Hell, a high-end BBK will cost you $5k (easily).

All that being said, I'd rather design without a budget in mind and then have the freedom to backtrack from the ideal design to get something feasible that suits my needs versus the opposite.

Which suspension are you planning on running? What will you being doing for the top hat?

My google skills aren't having much luck right now, what is an a-arm?

I already run one of these rare items in my 1g DSM.
Cusco 30-70 split, 4 spider center differential with internal clutch pack lsd.
This thing works like a charm

Regular 4 spider on left, cusco 4 spider lsd center diff on right:

From what I read you are making an Evo 4 front hub. They can bolt on any brembo found on any year evo.
My brother runs them on his Evo 3. The only difference is the type of ball joint it takes, But thats why you would run Evo 4 control arms that are cast aluminum. I and also believe they use the same wheel bearings as 8&9 evos,

I haven't checked if they fit in 1g but it looks indentical. I should be trying this in a few weeks though.

Interesting, didn't know this. Can't imagine they're very easy (or cheap) to get ones hands on, though.

Still, mine will be lighter, stronger and eventually, have optimized geometry in addition to allowing for direct bolt-on compatibility with Evo 8/9 struts.

I'm tempted to design it for use with radial-mounted calipers...but that necessitates buying a VERY expensive race brake setup, so I think I'll leave that our for now.

He got his for $250 with control arms and brakes. It's the control arms that are hard to get.

But if you are making billet ones, It would be easier for you to copy the evo 4 hubs but change the type of ball joint it takes to the style of a 1g, If you did this then put me down for a set.

Also you should make billet controls with increased caster. Cause I would also buy a set of those as well

Hey Sal, what ever happened to this?

A design has been completed but until I have time/the means to get all the parts measured via CMM to confirm my measurements/placements I am going to refrain from spending time on any further development. Still need to do some more FEA on the part as well.

Cool! Any timelines?

Nope. I'm going to be out of country traveling all summer and possibly moving to another country for work when I come back so it's all on hold till next year at minimum.

Are the cars coming with you or are you leaving everything here?

Staying here for the summer. If I move for work only the Talon will be coming with me. The Malibu would stay with my dad and the Mazda 3 would probably get sold or given to my brother.

Hope you're Cali "smog" approved if you move there with it. Worse place to be if you have mods.