Project: Daunting Task

It's been a while since I've built a DSM, I've tried getting back into it a couple times and it never really worked out.

So here is attempt #13 at building a fast DSM.

First of all this car has sat since 2003 (12 years) and when it was parked it did not run. It has sat quietly in my friends pool house (converted into a shop), last week we made a deal and now the car is in my garage and I have started the rebuild.

So far this week I have just being stripping the car down and cleaning it up, organizing the boxes of parts that I was given and making a plan.

The 7 bolt that is in it is coming out and a 2.4 is going in but everything will need to be changed, all belts, fluids, O-rings, etc.

The brakes don't work at all which is scary, the wiring has been messed with in ways that I don't want to think about.

My plan is to try to make everything as simple as possible, first I strip the car down and then I slowly build it back up.

Here are some pictures.

Seeing light for the first time since 2003. The car had so much dust on it and no brakes so moving it was daunting.



This is the car firmly secured in the trailer, just loading up the boxes of random parts.



This is the 2.4l that will eventually power this car.



The Talon finally in my garage and facing the right direction, doing this took 10 hours thanks to no brakes and me by myself.



The current 7 bolt engine that is in the car and the random wires and probes that I will have to deal with.

Subsribed!
Good luck with the project & please keep us posted fresh pics and progress status. Hopefully she is all up and running for next season starting April.

Looks like a nice work space you got there! This should be fun to watch

Looking forward to watching this too!!

Likewise, should be interesting. Looks like a nice shop/garage you have there too!

Make it happen!

Looks like a fun project!

I completely understand that taking things apart is the simple part but getting this engine out without any real difficulty felt good.

My next couple of tasks off the top of my head:

- Clean things up and remove all of the non-essential items, especially all of the aftermarket stereo wiring.
- Pull the transmission from the 7 bolt.
- Pull whatever ECU is currently in the car.
- Pull any aftermarket alarms or car starters.
- Get the brakes to work.
















Thanks guys.

That's a hell of a shop you've got there!

Also subscribed.

Keep up the good work. You're moving right along!

I'm selling the AEM ECU and Ignition Module that came in the parts box and the Vipec ECU. I'd like to run DSMLink as I assume it's easier to use than the AEM or Vipec. Any thoughts?





Thanks Mike.

So the car is now stripped down to the basics, I still have a lot of concerns over the wiring harness and the "modifications" that have been done to it. My next step is trying to find an ECU, the problem is the engine is a Frankenstein of various parts that I have no idea the source of, can I just buy a 1991-1994 ECU and then make everything work off of that? My plan is to run DSMLink.

Yeah that should work fine. You will have to see how everything look on link once you get it all setup.

I pulled the dash out to get to the wires that were modified. I think I may find a stock engine, get the car running with the stock engine and then put the parts on one at a time. I think trying to get it running with so many changes is a recipe for disaster.

I have barely stopped working on this car. I bought a running parts car, I pulled the engine and ECU and put them into the black Talon and it will not start. So I put the engine and ECU back into the parts car to make sure I hadn't messed anything up and now the parts car won't start. The engine doesn't even crank.

On the ECU connector C-59 the ignition switch input (108) gets 12v when I turn the key but the starter signal wire gets no voltage whatsoever. What is between the ignition switch wire on the ECU and the starter signal wire?

Hopefully someone has the 2g FSM and can post it cause the wiring diagram will tell you the answer to that question.

Did you check the starter relay, and the Clutch switch?

Thanks for the ideas. I had bypassed the neutral safety switch by unplugging it. I will test the starter relay next though.

I've decided that my next best course of action is to physically follow the wire so I have torn everything apart. I'm working nights now so it has to wait but I've removed the HVAC which will make it easier.



I also took my daily driver to the track Friday, I ran a 12.7 @ 109mph which is about 3/10ths faster than I thought I would run. It's completely stock so I am happy with the time. The GTR in front of me in this picture ran 9.1 @ 162mph, haha, stupid fast Datsun.

Apparently I have to plug this in, the engine now cranks, yay.

Haha well I am glad to see that you got it figured out. Sometimes its those kinds of things that can go on for weeks until you find it, and you would never think that it would be something like that.

The nice thing about this car is that it is all apart so I can literally follow the wires and see where the disconnect is.

Today was a scary day, I don't know if this is from a long time ago or from today. The tank had been empty until I filled it today, I'm amazed I didn't burn down my house.

That's a scary sh!t! What could possibly caused it? Was it rewired ?

Yes, it had been rewired. I put it back to stock this morning as I am trying to eliminate the previous owners poor wiring. I still could not get fuel to the engine so I pulled the pump and found this mess.

Jesus, yeah you're definitely lucky to say the least.

I would guess that the pump seized from sitting so long, and if the previous owner didnt put an inline fuse in the wiring, I could definitely see this happening.

I thought it was just initial paranoia, but if this is what the guys wiring was like I would agree with you and go through every wire that previous owner touched...

Well after a lot of time and work I finally got the car to run.

I had to extend the fuel pump wiring because one of the harnesses I used is from a FWD and the pump is closer to the front of the car. I ended up changing all three harnesses over so I had fresh wiring instead of the hacked up job of the owner.

One question I do have is how many different engine mount configurations are there, the mounts I took off the other engines don't fit this engine, it's a mess.

Video of it starting, running then me shutting it off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLG1n30R9p4

Good call on changing everything out. Who knows what other part of the car might have been ready to melt or catch fire due to that wiring.

Unfortunately I know nothing about 1G mounts, but congrats on getting her going!

This was the link that led me to look at the fuel pump and realize it had fallen out: http://www.ca.dsm.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=328440

Now I'm going to pull this engine and put the 2.4L in it that came with the car.

I'm sure you've figured this out already as well but the 1G FWD uses separate pump and sending unit connectors which as you mentioned are located much further forward. The 1G AWD uses one connector for pump and sending unit as it's all attached to the same piece that comes out when you unbolt it from the top of the tank at the back.

A little bit since I updated this but I've since got the 2.4l to run in the car, I fixed the brakes and the car now runs and drives. I have returned it to it's owner and picked up another Talon to play with.

I haven't looked over it to see how bad everything is but it was once owned by the same guy as the black one so I am a little worried about the wiring.

It has a crazy custom sub and speaker setup, I feel bad for taking it out but it won't have a stereo so subs don't really work, haha.

I want to convert the steering rack to a 1.8l manual rack, just have to find one.

So I couldn't get motivated to build the red Talon after the large amount of work that I put into the black Talon.

I've decided to change my plans to build a RWD 4G63 powered BMW E30. I know I can get the engine to run so the largest concern for me is the motor mounts and connecting the engine to the driveline.

I picked up a clean 1988 E30 Coupe that I drove into the garage:


Perfectly fine running BMW M20 engine out:


Mustang T5 transmission has been bought, I had to take measurements of the output shaft and sent them to a guy in the states who will build me my bell housing:


Ruining the interior as well, I am going for full race car:




I've decided to try to find a running Talon with a decent build to buy and use as a parts car for this build. I'll also have to learn how to weld as I'd like to make my own engine mounts, this is my biggest worry as I have no idea what I'm doing.

Hopefully it drives by spring.

VERY interested to see how this new project progresses

Do you know if that swap has ever been done before?

Very interested as well!!

I'm confused, what's going on? There is a black DSM, a red DSM, and now a BMW all on the same page.

It's been done and it's quite famous - it's been around for many years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5QIVxy_z2U

(This is just one of a number that have done the swap. Not sure there's much documentation though as it's mostly race/shop builds.

If you ever came to the Shootout you would know this Mr. Jeremy

Motor mounts would be a good start for learning how to weld. I would advise a good gas mig, and after mocking up the design, tack it, bring it to the bench and run all your beads in the flat position. Lap joints are also great to learn. Stock up on the same material you'll use for the mounts and get some practice in.

I love the idea of being able to do to burnouts. Really miss it in fact.

Would be fun with line lock.

Found this one too but with a sooby trans
http://e30m3b-spec.blogspot.ca/

I have found 3 but I'm sure there are more out there, I like the looks of the old BMW's and I know 4G63's so we'll see how it works.



Ya me too, we'll see if it works, getting the engine to run should be easy as I'm just porting the entire wiring harness over, no splicing.



I'm just using the same thread for all of my projects instead of creating new ones, I switch vehicles often. About four months ago I called a friend of mine who has been sitting on two mint Talons for 10 to 12 years without either of them running. I took his black Talon and started rebuilding it, I ended up having to replace all the wiring in the car, the fuel pump melted all the wiring in the tank, I went through two engines and then finally got it running. Once it was running I returned it to him and took his red Talon for my own, I was planning on building it up but after the huge work I put into the black Talon I just couldn't get motivated. I phoned a buddy and was bitching to him about my lack of motivation to build the Talon and he said "Why don't you build my BMW" and I said "Yes sir." A couple days later he drove the car to my house, signed a bill of sale into my name and this project began.



Ya, they all seem to be drag race only cars, I know it's the same thing but I have three goals for this car: Hillclimb, Targa Newfoundland and the Bonnyville Salt Flats. I've already started the registration process for a hillclimb in May so I have to get this thing running.





Thanks for the advice, can I just buy a generic Canadian Tire mig or should I spend more? I hate the idea of buying the wrong welder.



Great link, thanks.

I like the idea of using the Subie trans as well^^ Although that Mustang unit seems stout enough. I want to see how this turns out. I imagine that the choice of trans as far as strength goes will be less critical when you can just spin two wheels instead of worrying about all four

Well it really depends on what sort of welding you will or want to be doing. Versatility gets expensive. I ended up with a flux core for little things and a 225 amp ac/dc arc welder which was nearly a grand for bigger jobs. That being structural licenced welding. I do plan to get a multi processor (mig, tig and stick) eventually. Just not a need more than a want.

YouTube welding videos.

A lot of what certified welders learn start there. Tons of great info!

Ya I like the low price of the T5, it looks like I'll be running a 2.3l with a Holset HX35 so I may overpower the T5 and then I'll just upgrade the T5, I kind of want straight cut gears in it eventually anyway.

I may cut the fenders and put bolt on flares on to run a wider tire, probably a slick we'll see how the finances work.



I'm watching youtube videos now, I think I'll buy a cheap mig and just learn with it while making my intercooler piping and exhaust piping and I'll get the rollcage guy to build the motor mounts, I would rather not mess them up.

Cheap flux is going to make a mess and produce some pretty porous welds.
From what I am reading if you can get a 220v line in there it will make welding a lot easier and gas will be much cleaner too.

Bryan is right.

And piping is much tougher to weld when first getting started.

If I had the project on my table...

I would;

Use the cherry picker to position the motor in the engine bay where I would need to install the mounts. Considering how the motor torques and use of heavy duty hardware. The longitudinal setup means you'll have to use the roll stops on a customized cross member. Again considering clearance issues with things like exhaust, charge piping, accessories. While the upper motor timing side mount would likely need the rad support.

In fact, the more I think about it.. The harder it is for me to gauge how much work is needed without physically seeing the engine bay and how the transmission is factored in.

The last guy on this board who did what you're about to do, did it successfully in a 1964 valiant. He did post the project on here. Guys name is Dan Falardeau from HP racing.

That may help you with getting some ideas on what to expect.

The intake manifold is another one.

Hell of a daunting task

From what I am seeing from the post I put up he only put the roll stops on and the trans mounts, is that enough? do you really need the timing mount?

Oh also what block are you using? a 7? if so the evo manifold is a good choice cause it will be facing forwards instead of backwards like the dsm manifold will be facing.

Sounds good, thanks. I'll work on getting the 220v into the garage and buying a better welder. One of the things I want to weld is the sunroof panel into the roof, this seems like it should be a good starting point for me.



Haha, yes it is. I've decided to take the body to a race shop that I know the owner of to help me with the engine mounts while he's building the cage.

As for the intake manifold I'm converting the car to non boosted brakes to remove the master cylinder. http://store.garagistic.com/e30-boosterless-brake-setup



I wasn't going to do a timing mount.

I just found a 6 bolt block with a 2.3l build on it. I bought it a couple days ago. JMF and Magnus actually make RWD intake manifolds for the 4G63. I really like the idea of the Evo manifold though as that sounds cheaper.

One other thing I'm a little worried about is the floor where I believe one of the roll cage mounts will be is a little rusty, I'll ask my cage builder but will he just cut that out and weld new floor in it's place?

My buddy who is co-funding this project is also talking about getting the shell sand blasted, I think I'll talk him out of this as it seems an unnecessary expense.

Your garage likely already has 220v. Even our houses do. It's just that we really only use it for the stove, and run everything else on 110v.

Just be aware of how many amp breaker you need to run from the panel. Usually there's a data sticker mentioning it or the info is found in the owners manual.

Doesn't seem like you need the timing mount for something like this so I think you are good.

The problem with the 6 bolt head is the intake ports are completely different from the evo ports, you can modify an evo head and throw it on the 6 bolt block if you like and that will work. Even with purchase of head and manifold still should be cheaper than the SMIM, but will be sacrificing some hp for some added torque.

Yes they will probably cut back as much as they need to so that they can put in a sufficient panel to hold in the cage.

Sand blasting is nice, if you are planning to paint the car then acid dip is a popular option too. If you can find yourself a closed enough area you can blast it yourself too.

The bell housing has been built, just waiting for it to ship. With the horrible conversion of CDN to US dollars this was a bit more of a hit than I anticipated, it'll be worth it when it runs though.



I ended up buying a Millermatic 190 mig welder. I'm going to try to learn how to weld on one of the parts cars before tackling the projects on the BMW. I will pick the welder up Monday and probably start trying to weld Wednesday.

https://www.millerwelds.com/equipment/welders/mig-gmaw/millermatic-190

Gas mig is nice! Not sure if you bought the cart to match the Miller but using argon will definitely keep your beads nice and tidy.

You can definitely learn everything there is to know about how to weld from just watching YouTube videos. How you apply it, is entirely on you though. The basics are simple, from understanding metals (metallurgy), melting points, types of joints, injection angles, positions in which you're welding, and puddle size and control.

Like I say, learn in the flat position by stacking beads 1/3rd overlapping on a steel plate from top to bottom, left to right. And right to left if you can.

Some tools I recommend owning, if you don't already, are;

1. Angle grinder.
2. Wire wheel.
3. A decent auto tinting mask.
4. Miller low profile air filtered mask (has interchangeable filters, new product on the market as of 2 years ago).
5. Various sizes of vise grip style clamps.
6. Tig style gloves which give you the best dexterity.

That's all that comes to mind for the time being...

Looking forward to seeing your progress!

Damn nice bell housing if I don't say so myself.

I also noticed the welder requires 240v.

I ended up making my own extension cord with 60 amp connectors and 25 feet of cable for roughly $90. After searching long and hard for a pre made one, I figured they just don't exist.

Well this past black Friday, I found myself in the RV parts and accessories aisle of TSC, I found the cable I made but IIRC, it was 10 or 15 feet and around the same price I ended building mine.

Something to consider as well..

99% of people use CO2 or 75/25 with Mig and keep the more expensive 100% argon to tig welding.

Being able to weld is one of the best assets you can have for projects like this.

I used to be a wood worker... Untill my uncle left an old mig welder in my garage. Havent biult anything in wood in years!

Going to highlight this one as this will make a massive difference in your quality of welds and how easy it is to get good welds!!

Correction; 75/25 as Jason mentioned!

Well the project has been a drain on my soul lately, haha.

The bell housing has been shipped so that's exciting.

I test fit the engine and I realized that all of the coolant ports from the engine are at the fire wall and point towards the turbo side of the engine, this makes running lines a bit more complicated. It appears there are two common methods of dealing with this, the first is to convert the coolant exits to the pulley side of the engine, the second is to use flexible rad hoses and just run the lines all the way around on the intake side. I definitely prefer the cleaner method of moving the coolant ports to the "front" of the engine but it may not be as simple as I first thought. Definitely will need more research.



I spliced the wiring for the fuel pump in and then installed the Walbro 255, it was fairly straight forward so we'll see if it works. It's weird because the fuel pump is soldered to the fuel pump housing in the BMW so I just cut the wires and soldered them together then heat wrapped them.





The other thing I've been doing as time permits is trying to learn to weld, I've been taking random parts off of the BMW parts car and welding them together or just welding on them. I cut the evap canister in half then welded it back together then ground down the welds.

The welding needs more practise!

Control the puddle and you'll have better fusion. I highly recommend starting with lap and T joints before doing butt joints on pipe. But that's great progress! Keep up the good work Cody!

based on the mess around the welds I would assume that's Flux core than your doing pretty damn good, no puddle control with flux cause it's so damn hot and the slag usually screws you up when trying to run beads.

If I am completely wrong and that's with gas then you need to do some reading on some settings. Certain characteristics of your weld will tell you how you need to adjust your settings to get things right

Ya, I'm welding whatever I can find in the parts car I have. I'll probably start cutting pieces of body panels off to fill in holes in the good car.

I'll start working on T joints next. Thanks.



Haha, I am using gas. A guy at work thinks that I have the gas set too high and it's blowing the mess around. I definitely have the settings off. I've found a welding class at the local college that I'm going to try to sign up for.

So to update this, I had everything set up all the parts except the oil pan and I just decided that it was above my abilities, I think I could have got it to run but I didn't trust my ability to custom fabricate a oil pan, I didn't trust the oil pick up to work in a way that the car wasn't designed for and I didn't trust the cooling system.

I've now chosen the easy way out and I am in the middle of my Ford 302 swap into the E30.

It was a hard choice but I think it's the right one for me.

I'm selling a 4G63t to Ford T5 bell housing adapter if anyone is interested. I'd give a good deal to any ca.dsm.org folks.

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-transmission-drive-train/calgary/4g63-to-t5-rwd-bell-housing/1183242281

On a positive note my welding has improved drastically since I took the college welding course a couple months ago.

Let's see some updated pictures of your welding!!