Very low timing w/ DSMLink v2

I just picked up DSMlink v2 and I have got my o2 values around 11.5-12.0/1 which seems ok, but my timing is very very low in comparison to some of the example logs that I am using as a comparison. To be exact I seem to flatline at about 9degrees @ 3000rpm then the car sputters and knocks like a m#ther f%cker til 5k and I let off in fear of my life! I have read to retard timing in instances of knock but I am really concerned about my internals...any suggestions...please! I don't know if it is wise to retard the timing all across the rpm range.

Incidentally how accurate is this make-shift internal "wideband"? Some tuners I have talked to say because it runs off the stock front 02 sensor that value is essentially useless (it can't even differentiate between 9/1 and 11/1), is this true? (even w/ a brand new o2 sensor) Is it possible to tune without dropping yet more big coin???

Lastly, it may help some of you to know what I am running; I have a HKS external w/g, the spring is "supposedly" set at 15psi but it seems more comfortable around 19psi...yikes! I also have a 20g, Greedy profec B spec "junk" and Denso 660's...but alas no FMIC as of yet. Can somebody out there with the HKS help me out, I am really close to selling this setup and picking up an internally gated turbo???

Let me discuss this from experience...

Firstly, LOOSE YOUR NEED to use the o2 to do any WOT tuning, the only thing your o2 sensor is good for is to know its working, and to give you some fuel economy when crusing, DO NOT use it as a baseline/guide to do your tuning.

Secondly, I've had the "timing" problem as well.. I would be on the highway, punch the gas, and the car would drop to 12deg and stay there all the way to redline.

The bad part is i`m not sure exaclty how I fixed that, but I believe it had to do with the airflow readings.. Are you using a MAFT? or a VPC? If so, you may want to check your mid/high settings.

As for the knock, leave the timing sliders at zero and dont touch them for now.. I would suggest adding maybe 5% fuel across your rpm-band to see if it helps the problem, also what injectors are you running and what is your deadtime set to?

p.s.: log your airflow readings when this happens and see if rises steadily or if its all over the place.

The estimated AFRatio in DSMLink is not solely based on the o2 sensor. It uses a number of inputs such as airflow and injector duty cycle to calculate its value. People who have widebands have found it to be fairly accurate as long as the car has NO boost leaks of any kind.

As for the low timing, I would say that a 20g at 19psi on a stock SMIC is causing some major heat soak and is likely the cause of your knock retard. Try dialing the boost way down for now until you can get a FMIC.

Greg

Email me the log and I'll take a look at what's going on!

I wouldn't tune based on that AFR number in DSMLink. Sure, it *might* be accurate, but it also *might not* be accurate. With the absence of a real wideband, I'd suggest you tune based on getting your airflow #s as high as possible with minimal knock.

Like I said, send me the log and I'll make some suggestions.

I'm in the same boat right now. But I think it's the 3 counts of knock that drops my timing. I still haven't had a chance to really work on this, so I'd be interested to see what you find out.

Jonathan, try and remember how you got your timing on track...I'll pay for the hypnosis if necessary!

Jeff, I will try and figure out how to email you the logs, its pretty new to me so be patient, but I do appreciate the offer.

My first run in the car had 02's about 10:1, so I leaned it out after 3k rpm to about -8% then it got closer to 11.5:1. Ok so some of you say to lose my reliance on the 02 readings, what then would you suggest I use?

In short, how can I get my timing where it should be?

Thanks.

If you dont have your Lo and Med fuel trims as close to zero as possible, theres no way your dead time and global is correct. So basicly your WASTING YOUR TIME. With that being said, theres no possible way for your WOT or timing to be correct if the injector pulse width is wrong etc... which is achived by setting your trims up FIRST with a good global and dead time.

YOU HAVE TO GET YOUR LOW AND MED TRIM TO BE CLOSE TO ZERO before even attempting to tune WOT. This is done via the tuning guide link which you should have if your DSMLink is legit. It involves alot of long boring cruzes at the same rpm, pulling over and idling for 5 min, making adjustmets to the dead time till the lo and med are the same value, then once they are the same value, you adjust the global to bring them both up or down to as close to zero as possible. This cruzing is repeated over and over and over agian till your trims are good. 10 minute cruizes on the hwy, CONSTANT RPM and throttle, then idle for 5 min, read vales, make dead time adjustments, repeat cruize till your done.

Now, once that is done, then you can worry about timing and fuel. Its impossible to tune if your global and dead time are not set correctly and your global and dead time is set by doing the above. THERE IS NO SOLID FORMULA for dead time and global, every car is different, every setup is different, you just cant get around doing this first! Dont let anyone tell you different.

IGNORE your O2 readings, dont even faking log them. the only thing you should be watching at this point is the LO LTFT and the MED LTFT, turn everyting else off till you tune your cruze first!

All your sliders should be at ZERO when doing this, and if your using a MAFT, i highly suggest putting all the knobs to zero, even the base, and JUST use the DSMLnik. Sliders are only used once closed loop is tuned. (lo and med close as possible to zero) Use the sliders for WOT only, and you will most likely only be using the 4K and up sliders when doing this. Start lean, and add fuel till the knock goes away. I wouldnt worry too much about what the timing says.

READ ME CAREFULLY AND OBEY, THE DSMLINK GODS HAVE SPOKEN

My DSMLink v2 is legit, I have a serial number AND a wounded wallet.

Rob, Thomas of DSMlink hasn't got back to me, what do I use as my username and password for the forum?

So you are suggesting I just use LTFT as a value/parameter, that's it, make some cruises and mess with global fuel until LTFT is 0%?

Thomas suggested -32% global adj and -180usecs...

That Link above is only accessable to DSMLink users. If you dont have a user and pass yet, you will have to wait for one.

You have to go for 10 minute long cruizes. In that 10 minutes, you should hold the RPM at aprox 2500 - 3000 rpm. You should also maintain the same throttle position. Try your best no to disturb the rpm and throttle position. when thats done, imediatly pull over and idle for 5 minutes. You will notice your mid and lo trims start to adjust.

NOW, remeber, 12.5% is MAX whether you are plus or minus. Read what I am about to tell you over and over till it sinks in:

If you LO trim is a GREATER value then the MID trim after the cruize and idle, you heve to INCREASE the dead time value. If your LO trim is a LESSER valule then the MID trim, you have to DECREASE the dead time.

Make an adjustment to the dead time, then go for another 10 minute cruize and idle. Do this till your LO and MID trims are the SAME value. Once they are the same, then you bring that value closer to zero by adjusting the GLOBAL and go for more 10 minute cruizes and idling till you have the LO and the MID at zero. If you are within 1 or 2 percent, that is usually close enough but I would strive for zero.

Your dead time and global given to you are just a rough ball park, theres no way in hell they can be perfect because everyones setup is different, and no two cars are quite the same from the factory even.

See how you cant have a good dead time and global till your trims are at zero now? Once that is done, then go to WOT tuning.

DONT TOUCH THE SLIDERS!!!!! put your fuel and timing sliders all to zero when tuning the cruize!! the sliders are for WOT tuning only which cant be done untill you tune your cruize!

And you dont use the LTFT, you use the LO LTFT and the MED LTFT. You can select these under ECU/captured values. Then you can then choose them as values under the display options to be logged.

One more thing Mike, throw that profec into the river or off a cliff, I could never get mine to work with an external gate properly as well. I got a good ol MBC now and its solid boost every time. Some things just dont need technological improvement. A ball and spring, how can that go wrong?

Good advice with the Profec...but right now I am just about ready to throw the entire car off a cliff!! And me shortly thereafter...

I did exactly as you suggested, first run established my Lo LTFT at -1% and the Mid LTFT was -11% all at 180usecs. So I started increasing the dead time incrimentally first by 10 then by 20 and finally I have both the Lo and Mid equal at 350usecs -12.5%. I was mindful that this was the lower limit and the actual values could be much much lower, not only that, 350usecs seemed a long ways away from 180usecs so it all seems pretty strange. When we did get around to changing the global, the lo/mid didn't move at all from -12.5% grrrrrr. For some reason or another we turned off the car and put the values back to original, so 180usecs and -32% but then the Lo and Mid were staying close to -8% and 12.5 respectively. So I have no f*cking clue what to do...

Just curious, what are your "usecs", Lo/Mid LTFT's and global set at? I want to get a rough idea about what is normal and what is totally in left field somewhere.

if your maxing or minusing out at 12.5%, increas or decrease the global a bit to give it some more adjustment then go cruising again, you were on the right track, but that seems odd how the dead time had to be increased so much.

Increasing the global value is essentially richening things up and vise versa, the more the negative, the leaner.

increasing the dead time is "essentially" leaning things out and vise versa (sorta)

a positive trim value means the car is running lean so its adding that % of fuel and vise versa up to a max of 12.5%. (+-)

your trims were maxed in the minus which means the car is running rich so you need to lean the global a bit by bringing the slider down in the negative more

The quality of your cruising between adjustments is vital, dont skimp out, make sure you do the cruise with a nice consistant rpm and throttle between each adjustment. Its a pain, but its the only way.

You were getting close, you just didnt realize you had to then play with the global a bit to make the ecu adjust again without maxing out. Keep at it. Try starting again from where you are now, just small adjustments.

Its useless to you, dont worry about what any body elses is, it wont help. Every maf reads differently, every injector flows differently, every car is set up different. This is for YOUR car and no one elses. If you got a perfect zero on all your trims after this, and gave some one with a "similar" setup the dead time and global settings, chances of their car making good trims is slim to none.

Because I am at -12.5% it is running rich...hmmm. So like you said I should decrease global from -32% to perhaps -38% or -40%. By hitting dead times of 350-400usecs I guess I am also leaning things out but I should do it by means of global adjustment not dead time?? Man, those 660's must be just dumping fuel in like crazy...

Suffice to say Rob that equal lo/mid values of -12.5% is not the desired equal amount (they should not be hitting the upper/lower limits). So like I said above, I will decrease global and hopefully I will see lo/mid's come up from the lower limits. If for example I had lo/mids match eachother at say -3% and then brought the global up/down so now lo/mids were at 0% this would be the desired settings???

Admittedly, my 10min runs turned into 5min runs because I only seemed to see a change in values when I pulled over and made the adjustments, after that whatever I set it at (for example 180usecs to 350usecs), the car just seemed to react the same for a 2min run as a 10min run. Why is it so necessary to make the 10min runs then sit for 5min?

Rob, believe me, I trust you but these guys on DSMTuners.com are singing a totally different song;

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91676

That artcle is for WOT tuning which is what you CANT DO till you set your cruse. That guy forgot to mention the hard part, WOT tuning is much easier. This is a bitch, I know. Not many people can grasp the importance of this step. Its how yor dead time and global are achived. WOT tuning depends on a correct global and dead time setting, get it????????

You HAVE TO run the car for at least 10 minutes when cruising becuse the ecu needs that time to learn. You might not see it adjust during the cruise, but trust me, its doing something. I too used to skimp out and the results were not good. Not untill I did a friends car with good 10 minute consistant runs and 3-5 minutes of idling after each cruise did the tune begin to show progress. We spent nearly 4 hours just cruising, the result was a lo and mid trim of 1% which is pretty damn good. We couldnt get that with shorter unconsistant cruises no matter what we did.

Just to recap,

-all sliders at zero
-cruise time and consistancy important
-small adjustments
-adjust global a bit if trims maxing out
-patience young grasshopper

There's a lot of DSMLink questions going on. I thought I'd dig this thread up for others to read. I often refer to this when I think about tuning with DSMLink. I'm in the process of working through this on my own car.

Maybe this thread should be a sticky so we can all see Rob's good advice.

^^^ I second that! I've also been fighting the same battles with an overly rich condition but was hesitant to deviate much from the recommended deadtime and global values in the manual. I was close to pulling an injector and taking for flow testing but I I'm definately going to spend some more time on idle and cruise adjustments first.

Good explanations Rob.

Wow, did we look at the post date of the thread?

3 years old!

That's because it's a sticky! Did ya check the sticky?

And it was actually 4 years old, since Noah stated he dug it up for interest.

Had to get your thought in, eh Troy?

Now my question in regards to this is how does this relate to today's V3 with SD? As I am struggling with getting any timing above 10degrees wot with meth spraying and still getting knock in the early portion of the pull. Step out of throttle and back in and it pulls like a son of a gun..... Oh how I wish I was in ontario so it would be easier to get hands on help