RC 1000cc Injectors

So these injectors don't seem to be the most popular as trying to find data on them is very difficult.
I spent the summer tuning the car and with everything set in the log I have linked the car idled great and it cruised great. This was all done following the guide "tuning a 1g sd car with no maf"
The car is still cruising great but the idle is really rich, afr is sitting around 12.
Before I go adjusting the SD table with CombinedFT I was hoping to get some comments on my injector setting. Oh and my front02 sim is not cycling.
Global = -48.8 and deadtime = 45
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qylj50qtfgg1unx/log.2013.12.28-01.elg

I have not had a chance to look at your log but your dead time at 45 sounds very alarming to me. The larger injector the more dead time it needs. For example RC550 needs about 180 so your 1000cc needs to be way above that mark.

looks like you need a firmware update. check out this thread:

ecmlink firmware thread

The [CombinedFT] and [LTFT LO] suggest there are problems in your tune. I would most likely blame your injector deadtime for this since it mostly affects low RPMs. Things get better as your RPMs go up and [LTFT Hi] are at normal -2.5%. [CombinedFT] and [LTFT LO] are dangerously low at aprx -13% to -30% at lower RPMs. Negative means ECU is pulling fuel away from your injectors which means you are spraying way too much fuel. I think max is 20% in both directions on what it can compensate.

Lets start with your deadtimes. why 45?

Hm ok I will do the update later, i didn't think I was that behind.

That's what I got to when tuning, if your STFT Lo is negative that means I need to lower my deadtime. I even started my injectors in the 350 range and after tuning ended at 45.
I got to my global through wot tuning, so either these injectors don't flow anything near what they do. That's why I am getting frustrated with them.

Just noticed my SDAirflowPerRev, so I am thinking I can go ahead with make the SD changes. I just want to know if anyone else has the same issue I am having with big injectors.

I recommend you stay away from WOT tuning until you get idle/cruise straight out first. I am also running big injectors similar to yours as well as Terry S. I've noticed your pump is set always on. why?

Overall I think your setup is complex to start with. You have SD and front O2 simulated from wideband. Do you have an option to use stock MAF just to get things under control again?



That's why I always recommend to start with idle/cruise first. Your ECU can compensate your tune mistakes so you can't blow it up easily. At WOT fuel compensation is disabled. As said many times before, mechanical problems will cause tuning frustration. You'll need to be absolutely sure your fuel system is working properly and there are no major boost/vacuum leaks. Faulty FPR, FP Gauge, or leaky pump o-ring will cause fuel problems.

I would first reset your SD table to defaults (use stock MAF if you can) and start tuning only with Global & deadtimes.
You want your [CombinedFT], [LTFT LO], and [LTFT Hi] stabilized first and than you fine tune them with SD table. Try getting them within 5 to 7%(+-) average first.

I had idle/cruise down great during the summer. Just for starting purposes and for when I want to check fuel pressure.

I am thinking about putting in the stock maf or Terry has offered his 3" so I may do that and setup the table using those.

Ok looks like that the best option so far, will look into getting a maf hooked up and setup my SD table like that, when I originally made the switch I just did it cold turkey.

Is your idle always at 12:1?

My idle is at 12:1 a little after initial startup, then after driving, the idle goes to where it should, around 14.7-14.8:1.

Also, on my first pull, the afr's go to about 10.0:1, but are fine thereafter.

Do you get that too Bryan?

It is now, but in the summer everything was perfect.

Is it your tipin?

Could be the tip-in. I was playing with the adjustments and its been getting slightly better, but after the first pull, it's fine. Have to fix the exhaust before I do anything else though.

Your fuel trims are out to lunch. And your airflowperrev needs some work.

Have you actually had those injectors flow tested? I can get them done for your for like $40.

In that log you global fuel is set to -48.8 = 879cc.That's way lTFT LO is at -12.5%. So put the right value for 1000cc injectors and start raising global dead time . As for wot after idle is set properly (fuel trims) you have to make changes to SD table. You do not tune to sd table .

No I haven't Stephan, I don't have my 450s anymore so I don't have anything to run with if I take these out.
I think I might just take the maf route, it's going to get my SD table perfect(at least I hope) and in the process my fuel trims should be setup well too.

Jroslaw, if I didn't spend hours tuning my car in the summer to line everything up I would agree with you. You don't make changes to the SD table if it means that the SD table is going to have values well over 100.

Do you have a log of when it was running well to compare with?

Yeah give me a few hours, I will go through my logs and link one.

Bryan, did you check this? There are several spots in your posted log where the injector pulsewidth is constant 1.3ms.

The end of this log shows the car running well in the summer.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/n6sgfoqywgmlb2t/log.2013.06.03-02.elg

Thanks Rob and Nick, I didn't realize this was an issue. Rob thanks for calling me on that one, haha.
Will do an update today before I head out and then go for a cruise and see how it looks afterwards.

ok upgrade is done, will let you all know how today goes.

Any updates? New log? The new firmware will let your ecu use injector pulse widths less than 1.3ms if required, but doesn't explain the low airflow numbers etc.

I didn't end up going out last night, I will probably head out in a little bit and post up the log.
Thanks for the help guys.

Should be fun in the snow

Your global and dead time are very different in those two logs. Why did you change it?

I think I did a return because my STFT wasn't around 0 anymore
I think today I will be doing some tuning, and enjoying the snow

Alright here is the log from today.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6mu4pww7p7dbrau/log.2014.01.25-01.elg

two things I'm going to suggest to start with. It looks like you have a vacuum/boost leak. Idle is high and surging with ISCpostion at 0. It would be best to fix that. Second, contrary to that article written by highboost, the loadscale should be 100% for a 2L. If you follow the history of where the 114.8% number came from, you'll see that a bug was found in the code, and when the bug was fixed, they needed to put that value in there to prevent people's tunes from changing during a firmware upgrade. Anybody starting from scratch with the newer (bug free) firmware should just use the proper value.

You said you adjusted global fuel based on WOT which I agree with in general, but it looks like you may be compensating for a fuel delivery problem with a global fuel value that is too large (less negative). this may explain the low deadtime and low airflow/rev at idle. Do you have any way to monitor or log fuel pressure?

You have your idle switch enabled and simulated by tps should probably fix that. Get just an idle log set up idle before you start cruising.

Nick the boost leak is the throttle body so I am going to get that fixed soon cause I keep putting it off.

Hm, I am hoping that it's not my fuel pressure regulator, I have not been having much luck with them. I currently don't have anything to log it and was searching for a way previously to do so with link but it seems not many people have done this.
The other thing I can think of is the issue with broken studs on the sending unit, but from what I can tell when filling up the tank, it is sealing.

Ok I will disable the idle switch and just have it simulated. Ok will grab an idle log and see how that looks.

Only reason I brought up the fuel delivery is because as Stephen mentioned, the settings from last summer are quite a bit different, so I figured you must have changed it for a reason. Those settings from last summer appear to work better at idle and also look more "normal".
If you can't log fuel pressure, you can at the very least test the AFPR once you set it by applying both vacuum and pressure to the nipple and make sure fuel pressure raises and lowers accordingly. (I'm assuming you have an AFPR with gauge)
What's your fuel setup?

Good call nick, I will give that a try and see if that work, will need to figure out a way to add some air pressure to the afpr, in a controllable way.

ECMLink lite
RC 1000s
Fuel lab AFPR
-6 an tank to rail (with aftermarket filter)
Walboro 255 hp

Ctc.... search vacuum pump. You can probably find them at PA aswell. But make sure it does pressure and vacuum.

Well I just tested with just boost, using the compressor and everything looks good.
I will go take a look at CTC for a vacuum pump, also going to start fresh today and see how that looks afterwards.

Ok well i just did a search and this is saying they should be what I have (let me know if I am reading it wrong)
http://injector-rehab.com/shop/lag.html

Also found this
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/381281-rc-1000cc-global-deadtime-settings.html

Vacuum is easy.... start the engine.

And only if they flow right. Were they brand new?

LOL well than I am good there!

No they weren't brand new but I was told there was only 5000k on them, there were from Sven.

Also I remembered why the logs I gave you were different. After that summer one I was doing a bunch of WOT tuning and trying to get my AFR lined up with the est, the global that it's at now did that.
Maybe when the roads are nice and clean I will do another WOT and see if that is still the case.

Do you have a log of thoses pulls?

Here is the last log of the month the pull at the end lines up through the pull but there are still miss matches through the rest.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ap1nw4i6vuobp8f/log.2013.06.17-04.elg

The one thing I can't quite figure out is why both logs from the summer show injector pulse widths of about 1.4ms to maintain idle, but the one from a few days ago shows 1.2ms. That's a big difference. The cold weather might have some effect, but I wouldn't think that much. Is it possible your wideband needs calibration? Do you have a good factory o2 sensor you can put back just for idle and cruise tuning? So you've confirmed from the tests above that fuel pressure drops by approximately 10psi when the vacuum line is hooked up to the AFPR with the car running?

Yeah it's possible that it needs calibration, I can do it tomorrow and see if that makes a difference.
I am not sure how to wire it in if I did that, I cut the line for the stock o2 to put the wideband in.
I will double check again it drops about 10 (it's supposed the be a half psi for every hg of vacuum right?)

Didnt you just cut it at the ecm? Yes 1/2 psi for every hg of vacuum..

Yes I did.
Are you guys suggesting I set it up so I am running both?

I would try to calibrate the wideband first, before I reinstalled the O2.

Ok will do so today.

I was just suggesting putting a known good factory o2 back temporarily to tune idle and cruise. Then switch back to wideband, if your fuel trims all of a sudden change, then you know your wideband is off.
I'm also running a wideband with NBSim, but I plan to weld in a second bung so I can run both on two different inputs. Just gives me a way to check that both sensors agree with each other.
I checked my logs and compared the injector pulse width at idle between October and December. In October they were about 1.99ms at 13.5v. In December it was about 1.94ms at the same voltage. The lowest it went was about 1.86ms at 13.9v. So I still think that 0.2ms shift you have is suspicious. I'm running a similar setup (SD using FIC1050's.)

I would also suggest getting your airflowperrev at a steady .25-.26. The less air flow will have the ecm injecting less fuel.

^ yes this is much easier (just recalibrating that is). Also make sure the ground is good and that the gauge matches what ECM link is logging

Yeah I think in the long run I would like to weld in a second bung for the wideband and the narrow band.
Let me know what input you will be using for this as I am unsure what the best option for that.

I had originally attempted to get my airflowperrev to be around that and the idle was very unstable, when I shifted it under that it evened it out. After the recal I will do a full retune, that way I know everything is fresh. The roads are looking clear enough so I will go for a WOT run after calibrating the wideband and before setting up my global to see how that looks.

Keep in mind the 1G's only had one O2 sensor stock, and less overall ECU inputs, so it will take a little more work than you probably think.

That was why I hadn't put it in in the first place, I never really found a concrete answer as to where to wire it in.

Why not just wire it to an old A/F gauge. A narrowband O2 is a pretty redundant sensor to waste much time trying to figure out how to log it.

Alright so I went out and as you can see my global looks good based on the little WOT run I did.
I am not sure what to do about my deadtime cause it's getting to the point that it will be down to zero to get my fuel trims to line up, should I start fresh with the calculated global and then use the deadtime that was suggested in that link and go from there?
Thanks for all your help guys, I really appreciate it!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kvxt8q5xm1ug6kf/log.2014.01.29-02.elg

The deadtime settings are weird indeed! You definitely have too much deadtime, because if you do the SD VE adjust, you can see that its pulling a lot of fuel at idle to compensate. Perhaps play in the direct access part and lower it based on voltage. If anything, lower the deadtime at higher voltages, because your LTFT Hi is pretty good while you have lower voltages, but your LTFT Lo is terrible.

Here, this maybe.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pqfgie3oew8j9ow/Bryanlogadjusted.eda


Also your ISC position is 0 at idle. Mine doesn't like the winter though and will jump around, most likely due to a bad FIAV though.

Also, assuming you are still on a 16g, antilag is not going to keep that little guy's bearings happy for long.

No you are doing it wrong. Ltft lo is sitting at -12.5 %. Ltft lo corresponds to global fuel at idle. So you should set the global fuel for 1000 cc injectors and work with global dead time to get ltft lo and stft as close to 0 as possible at idle. If you need assistance I am all good with link . Have my 95 auto dd tsi with 2150 cc injectors and boosting 42 psi also running sd .I'm from Mississauga .

Have you seen his deadtime settings and how low they are?

Then take a look at his LTFT Hi. The latter has only a -2.5%, but his Lo, or idle, is -12.5%. His battery voltage at idle is 14.* but his battery voltage at WOT is 12.*. So his deadtime settings at lower voltages is good, but at idle when he has more voltage, his ecu is pulling tons of fuel.

Bryan, you could try pulling a tiny bit of global fuel as both are in the negative and see how that affects things.

Bryan your fuel trims are fracked. Stop worrying about WOT tuning get your idle trims porper, Because zll I see is a faulty injector or bad Wideband right now. Put the bitch in your driveway and let it idle. Start at the beginning not the middle. Get everything lined up at idle first. If you want a proper starting point. If you just want high hp at high rpm thats a different type of tuning.

The proper order of tuning is 1 idle trims close to zero 2 cruise ecu is helping 3 wot you work with SD table . What he has done is he changed global fuel to match the lower portion of sd table.

Ok thanks guys, I think I am going to reset SD to stock, and reset global and deadtime to what was mentioned in that thread and go from there.
Guys those were the steps that I took in the summer that's why I don't understand why I have to start from scratch, also need to take care of the boost leak on the throttle body too which I don't think is helping.
What are your guys thoughts on the deadtime adjustment for the injectors based on voltage? I am wondering if that should have been left alone.

Stephen, I am pretty sure the wideband is good. Is there a way that I can test the injectors at home?

Jroslaw if I am still struggling after a while I may just take you up on that offer.

Stephan, maybe I should be looking at getting another turbo

FWIW I think Stephan's suggestion to adjust the deadtime per volt is very good. Also I wouldn't trust that link you posted for deadtimes. They show the FIC850's having less deadtime than stock DSM 450's!

It may be a long shot, but you can also try to email RC engineering with the exact injector part# you have and ask them if they have deadtime specs at various voltages for those injectors when they are used with a resistor box (not using a peak and hold driver). You may still need to tweak the deadtimes up or down, but hopefully the slope of that line will be much closer to actual.

also, theres no way to test the injectors at home, so if you can take Stephen up on the injector service for $40, its a steal. you r car will obviously be down a few days though.

There's always a holset waiting.

I like to fine tune using the battery voltage because no aftermarket injector will have the same dead time vs voltage curve.

Thanks Nick, I will send them an email, that would probably make my life a lot easier if I can make that happen.

Haha Stephan, I am not looking to spend that kind of money yet, I would be looking for something with similar characteristics as the 16g.

Also I seem to have forgotten what the stock deadtime is for 450s, does anyone have that?

Haha. Call me crazy, but I love turbo's that take for ever to spool but hit hard.

Hopefully they have an answer. Didn't realize before, but if its a sudden change to weird fuel trims, Stephen's probably right that something is wrong.

Is your fuel pressure normal?

Well I set the fuel pressure to 43, other than that fuel pressure seems to be working fine.

Nick and Stephan have given some sound advise.I never thought of voltage.

The only at home testing you can do it to resistance test them with the limited tools you have access to( not being a dick) but i doubt you have an injector tester or flow bench at home.

Haha, I know. Thanks Stephen!

So I was just about to send the email when I found some info.

RC Engineering 1000cc
Low Impedance

.68ms @ 13.8v @ 38psi
1.06ms @ 8.66v @ 38psi
Battery voltage correction: .07ms/v
.83ms @ 13.8v @ 38psi w/DSM injector resistor (6 ohms)
1.48ms @ 8.66v @ 38psi w/DSM injector resistor (6 ohms)
Battery voltage correction: .13ms/v
Flow rate: 981cc @ 38psi
Tests on the RC 1000cc injector were performed at 38psi and with a DSM injector ballast resistor to accurately represent the injector operating environment when swapped into the DSM platform.

http://forums.haltech.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10407

Just an update, I spent some time working on it yesterday and spoke with jroslaw.
The car will be staying as it is, I have reduced the deadtime more so that my idle is getting the correct STFT, until I replace the throttle body.
After trying to set it up closer to what I had been reading the car would not warm start or idle very well.
As soon as the throttle body is replaced we will be taking a stab at seeing how everything works.

This is what they sent me. I have sent them an email to ask if they have the other voltages.

cc/min Ohm 10v 11v 12v 13v 14v 15v
1000 3 1.17 0.95 0.8 0.67 0.56 0.46

Don't bother the only useful data you can get from Tom or Dave at ecm link . I got mine id 2000 with individual dead times and the car didn't want to start. So any real data can be only provided from link owners as they are testing them with a link.

Ok good to know