installed meth and looking for advice

Hi Guys: I have just installed a devils own meth kit to try to make a little more power on pump on the street.
I have it set with a hobbs switch to start at 13-14 psi with a .7 GPH nozzle turbo is @24 using 1G timing base map and evo8 stock fuel map for a start which i have changed a little. question I have is what AFR are should I be targeting with the meth spraying.
Thanks

1992 AWD Talon, MT, 6 bolt, Ebay 16G, @ 24 PSI, Evo 8 MAF, 3" DP, Cat delete,3" Exhaust AFX WB, Walbro 255 rewired, AFPR @43.5, FIC 950, FMIC 2.5" Pipe, 1G BOV, ECM Link V3, Meth 50/50 150psi .7GPH

I'm guessing you mean a 7 GPH.

I run a single 10 GPH with 50/50 mix, and I run about 12.2-12.4:1 AFRs and she seems to like it. As always, you wanna run whatever the car seems to like most.

Aim for low-mid 11's first, then pull fuel from there and see what she likes.

Hey Jeremy: yes 7 GPH nozzle in tb elbow, wow that seems lean as i have not used meth before. I gump tune for our 91, I will start in the 11's and see. thanks for the reply

I'm on 94 pump, probably should have mentioned that. And yeah it seemed lean to me at first as well; like I said, I gave the car what it wanted. After doing some reading though it actually seems about the same as other guys with a similar setup; remember that meth is a fuel itself.

I think even with meth and your boost turned up the 1g map is still really aggressive, then add the evo fuel map on top of that I would be careful.

I assume you have a tune from before meth went in?

I have done a couple of pulls with this and not getting any knock with the meth. I do have 2 tunes from before meth went on a sloth tune for the street on 18 psi and one for the track on 22 psi when i add q16 to get some octane, 91 sucks

I tune mine around 11.5 on 93 or 94 with a 10gph nozzle.

One thing I will highly advise is using ecmlink to control it. Far easier tuning. Ecmlink will pull the global to adjust the fuel ratio automatically, no screwing around.

I use Map switching on my evo8 ecu.
I'm sure its the same idea with ecmlink.

I adjusted the global for fuel.
And just copied my timing maps, and ran a bunch of extra timing on the AltMap.

Pump turns on around 8psi with a 12 or 14 nozzle(I forget), maps switch, little red led turns on, and basically VTech and some wizard magic happens. AFR's are high 11's dips into the 12's occasionally.

I have also been told you can shoot for 12.5... but my balls haven't been big enough to attempt that yet.

Wow, seems pretty lean, what kind of boost & timing are you running & on what turbo?

I run 94, think I have an M12 nozzle in there, 50/50, with their older pump (probably their first gen, not sure if its 100 or 150 psi, have had one of their new 250psi pumps sitting on the shelf for years....). If I go much leaner then 10.5:1, I start to knock (~10.5 at peak cylinder pressure & lean out to ~11:1 as the rpms increase), boost ~30psi.



Haven't played with these Link settings for some time, have they changed options for how meth is controlled? Thought mine was setup so when the set point is triggered , it enables the secondary fuel map (& not actually altering the global)?

They've updated it a bit the last update, more ways to trigger, can enable secondarys or adjust the global and deadtime.

Good to know, I'm probably out of date on the software, will have to check it out.

Hey guys. So i finished installing my meth kit today. Fun project and seems to be working as expected. I do have a question i'm hoping someone can help with. I think I understand it correctly but i'd like someone to confirm.

I'm using ECMlink V3 full to trigger the pump by way of the FPS output and relay. I have the activation conditions set to 2500 RPM, 86% TPS, 1.8 load and knock greater >= 0* and less than 5*. I understand that with V3 full you can enable the MINOCT maps as secondary maps when FPS is active. For now I have my MIN and MAX tables matching until i confirm everything is working right and consistence before I start tweaking.

My question is, the way i have this set up if the ECU sees greater than 5* knock it will not enable the FPS because all the conditions aren't met? Assuming this is true, does this also mean it will switch back and use the MAXOCT table? Put another way, does link use the MAX table exclusively unless all the FPS activation conditions are met?

If this is right, I plan to use the MAX table for a conservative 91 pump tune and dial in the MIN tables for meth. I just need to be sure i have the ECMLink logic right so that if the pump fails or the nozzle gets clogged resulting an a bunch of knock, it will revert to the MAX tables with more conservative timing and fuel. Of course it won't pull boost since i have a MBC but i think this is a pretty good failsafe..ish?

Let me know if im off my rocker

You want to max out the knock option, you don't ever want it cutting out due to knock.

This is my current setup

Thanks for the details Jason. I can see why you wouldn't want to stop spraying meth if you got knock but wouldn't it be better to drop the timing and add fuel by switching back to the pump gas tuned MAXOct table? Maybe this isn't how it works ?

Wow look at all those options. I'll have to look into this... I'm still using a pressure switch.

Pain in the butt when I ease on the throttle and bam compounds make 8psi and then next thing you know I'm spraying meth and at 20psi at 30% throttle.

Also I see the option to turn off on clutch switch. Do you guys not spray while on the 2 step???

Sorry, somehow missed this first time around.

12.4:1 AFRs with 23psi out of an FP Green with about 14* timing made 460awhp/395tq.

I had it as high as 30psi with about 12.0:1 AFRs with no knock, but I wasn't watching my timing as I only did that to get an idea of when I might run out of injector (and wanted to see if my IATs would ever go up). I don't think I saved the logs though.

I'm fairly certain I have a 250psi meth pump.

If anything, I would add a solenoid valve and pressure sensor right before the nozzle and have it switch to a fail-safe map if pressure is lost, other than that, keep it spraying.

I'm not the meth expert by any means but this is what has worked for me.



Link is the best option for controlling meth, hands down.

In my experience, there's no need to spray on the 2-step, not enough load to cause knock.



I tune mine around 11.5, seems to be happy there on 94 + a single 14gph nozzle/250 psi pump, 75/25 mix at 35 psi/13* of peak timing.

The more meth you add, the richer you should run really, as the stoich ratio of methanol is around 6:1. Just takes some playing around to see what your motor likes.

Sven.. Does your pump have the pressure relief switch on the end?

Mr Drew, out of curriosity why did you decide to do it by rpm instead of boost? Easier to tune?

Cool, thanks again. So how do you have the pressure switch and solenoid worked into the system? Is the pressure switch just an indicator light to confirm line pressure or is it somehow worked into link? How is the solenoid triggered vs the trigger to turn on the pump? Sorry for all the questions. I've done a lot of googling but most of the info is weak and outdated.

I thing I need to check the firmware version of my link since I don't have coolant temp and boost options on my version?

Pressure switched would be worked into link so it switches to your non meth map (hopefully the guys can say how this is done)
Your pump will always be on and should have a pressure shutoff, and the solenoid would be wired into link so that once you hit parameters the solenoid opens.

As for too many questions, no such thing. That's what this board is for!

Always on you say! I don't think the old Devil's Own pump I bought (150 PSI surflo I think) has a pressure shut off but I'll look into this a little more. When I pressure tested it I just had the line open and then with the nozzle into a bucket. Might have to cap the end and see if it comes on and builds pressure and then switches off. That would make sense now that I think about it.

Any recomendations to source a pressure switch and solenoid?


Thanks Bryan. This is exactly why I posted here instead of the ECMlink forum. You guys are great!

It's not, it's activated by load. That is the most accurate way to tune it.

The 4200rpm is just a number I picked. With my setup I'll never hit 1.5 load at 4200rpm, so I could set it at 2000, it doesn't really matter.

Ah ok, I saw the 4200 and just assume it came on then, it's been a while since I have seen a link log, will remember this when I get the car back on the road.

I would actually be curious to hear this as my car came with the solenoid and I still need a pressure sensor. Guys can you shed some light on what pressure and where you set it in link to switch timing maps/boost?

I'm running the snow kit 2 nozzles
675ml and 225ml. Hp pump progressive kit.
Starts at 20psi and peaks at 35psi.
I'm able to get 18deg at 7500rpm. 12.3afr and 42psi of boost. 50 50 mixture.

When using the FPS output in link, does that switch to Alt Maps as well, or do you still use an input to make it switch?

There's an option to switch maps when FPS or EGR are active.

I've never understood.

Whats the point of mixing meth with water?

Meth has a flash point of almost double then gasoline, And it's a self cooling fuel. We battle freezing injectors open on the Rail car all the time.

^^
you can just buy it in the form of washer fluid on the go at any gas station.

I hopped in my car yesterday and realized my meth tank was almost empty. So I stopped at TSC and got a bunch of washer fluid on sale. I don't think I'll ever take the time to mix more then 50/50.
Grab and Go

This is the option I'm using. What I'd be curious to know/confirm is, when FPS (or EGR) is active, it selects the alternate map (MINOct) which you would presumable tune for meth timing and fuel. So does that mean that if any of the activation conditions ( the ones in Jason's snapshot above) are false, does the ECU stays in or reverts to the standard map (MAXOct)?

I wonder if there is a logable value in link that can tell you which table is being used at any given time?

Now I'm really being a pest. Sorry Jason!

It depends what you're using it for, if you want the cooling effects, water absorbs much more heat than meth. Obviously if you just want an octane boost, the more meth the better.

The #1 reason is safety, you can't see a methanol fire, supposedly concentrations 50% and below are not flammable.





Correct, if the conditions aren't met, no meth and no map switch.

You can log the FPS switch, so you'll know when it's pumping and also the map should switch too at the same time.



Be careful with that, actual concentration varies a LOT.

Cool, thanks for your patience and info. I'll look into the press switch and solenoid.





I pick up a gallon of deionized water for $2.49 and a gallon of methyl hydrate for $9.99 at CT. Should make the mix pretty consistent and 2 gallons for $13 isn't too bad. We'll see how long it last

It lasts a while, I go through about 3-4 gallons of mix over the summer.

ummm? I go through my 2 gallon tank in a weekend.... wtf must be siphoning like crazy.... this is good to know

I see a lot of pros quoting numbers similar to this. I used to run 11.5AFR with about 22* timing; the leaner tune with less timing seems to be making a LOT more power. Which makes perfect sense to me.



Careful with this. As Jason said, concentrations vary. Also, washer fluid is not ONLY water and meth - for one, pretty much any washer fluid will use colouring. After 1 season on CTC's green winter washer fluid, my pump, lines, and check valves were all gunked up with green sh!t. I mix my own 50/50 now and have never had a problem.

Meth also stores fairly well, it just absorbs water from the air. But a 50/50 mix in a sealed container won't absorb much water. I have a 3gal tank; every spring, I mix 4 gallons, fill the tank, and throw a spare gallon in the trunk. I've yet to need my spare.

I used a lot more on a hobbs switch, when activating by load you'll find you use a lot less.

This is the pump I use. The 2 wire switch on the end is an over pressure cut off. If the nozzle clogs or what ever.. The pump shuts off.




This is the circuit I made. I ran a wire off the pump side of the over pressure switch. This wire runs to a pressure switch by the nozzle with an inline dash light. When the nozzle sees 35psi+ fluid pressure the pressure switch turns on the light. If not enough pressure, the light doesn't turn on.

So if there is too much pressure, the pump shuts off and so does the light.

Then I have a relay inline this circuit, that activates the idle switch pin. This switches to Aux maps.

So when egr turns on water injection. The fail safe wire activates the dash light and the aux map.

So if nozzle clogs. Light goes out.. Switches to base map..

Hose comes undone.. Light goes out Switches to base map

Run tank empty.. Light goes out Switches to base map.



So far it works well.. But I stripped the threads in my check valve so it's on hold till spring. I was running 7g nozzle .. 5 parts water 2 parts meth. Didn't seem to effect the a/f but dropped temps everywhere and eliminated knock at 25psi and 14°timing.

Where in link is the setting to switch maps

In the AuxMaps tab.

For the amount of Meth that we use here I wouldn't see it being a issue. Also the Methanol has cooling property far superior to water.. On our rail car after running 168mph on the 1/4 the Blower is ICE cold(in a 32c day you'd think you stuck your hand on a bag of ice)

If you treat methanol with respect you won't have issues.

There's a 10 page post on tuners on water vs meth.. And the rep from devils own was in discussion. By the end he actually convinced himself that water/alcohol was a better choice.

I've always believed that if your just running a ton of boost and power on a built engine.. Where the engine isn't the limit , then meth is a better choice. It raises the octane level to suppress knock so you can run more timing and boost.

Water injection is more for running your engine past its limit. Eliminating knock so you can run way more boost and then tune for max power.

I think this is why people say max your tune out before you add meth. But with water.. You just add water and then raise boost and tune the car.

I'm more comfortable with water.. And I don't think I'll need more fuel any way. Not planning on making more then 32psi on my stock block.

When you say you're targeting 12.3:1 AFR would that be on 94 oct pump?

Jay, love the write up. Great stuff!

This is becoming a great thread guys. Super helpful to me and I'll be referring back to it often I'd say.

Keep in mind.. Paul's car makes about 700hp

I'm a little lost of the cooling property's meth vs water/meth... I have seen meth injection freeze components inside several vehicles, Never have i heard or seen of 50/50 doing this?

At end of day I'm thinking it's what performs best for someone and their vehicle(s) specific in question.

I myself and several guys out here run 94pump and pure meth in the tank as well. (stock long block subie trapped 125.1mph, only gtx3076r(36psi), exhaust, 1000cc injectors and wally 450 @ 2200ASL).


Ethanol always burns blue , if the flame is high enough it will get a yellow tail , Methanol either burns with an invisible flame or with a yellow flame depending on purity content


Most people switch to ethanol for the colder burning fuel factor, Correct? Methanol burns almost 50C COLDER then ethanol.

Now most won't see this benefit unless running a pure meth driven car, but benefits are still there to be had.

Roy-t! Better keep that in mind for sure.

That and as mentioned in the tuners post..and a lot of what I've read.. Most won't experience the true benefits of meth unless fully tuned with 3d mapping.

Like I said before tho. I'm not that experienced in meth.. So I don't try to figure it out.

Now water is said to not get true benefits untill your way over the limits of your set up.. But I'm just using it as a secondary intercooler so to speak.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/ask-your-water-alcohol-injection-questions-here.256772/

Jump to pages 10+ several people talk about 100% methanol spraying or e100. And how their results are, Some are saying you just need to adjust your nozzle size accordingly.

I understand the theory behind the water, but just from what i've experienced putting it in our tanks and injecting, and from what our drag car does. Pure meth to me trumpys a mixture IF SET UP PROPERLY.

if you don't do a proper 50/50 mix for meth at Minimum It's more prone to knock this is proven, Meth always needs to be the higher number, It will also require less fuel from your pumps.

people been injecting water into their engines for knock suppression way longer then meth.. It is proven to work really well. I went from some knock.. To no knock with 70% water.. And didn't need to change my tune.

I like this. I am going to try and copy for next year.

The pressure sensor I am using.. Is a a/c pressure switch from a Mazda or Nissan. Its about 35psi to switch on. The 92 talon has a 30psi switch.. But I was afraid of so was running 30psi of boost... Then it would activate if there was no meth pressure.

Why not put your pressure switch on the other side of the check valve? And your fuse should be between the battery and relay not after the relay.

I was worried that the check valve would hold pressure in the line too long and not switch into safe mode.

The sensor is the first thing treated into the nozzle. Its actually a brass T.

My check valve is actually about 18 inches of braided hose away from the nozzle.

And I figured the fuse should go closest to the pump it self. To protect it from anything else anywhere in the curcit.

Fair enough on the pressure switch that makes sense. But the fuse needs to be closest to the battery its to protect the battery from shorting and causing a fire not to protect the pump.

That would actually work And look better anyway. Tanks Stephen, I'll swap that around and just run one wire from the battery to a fuse block and run both relay 12v sources off the other side of the fuse block.