Brake upgrades

Hey guys. Does anyone want to give me thier 2 cents on front brake upgrade options?

I am thinking about the $1000 kits like Baer and Wilwood that include calipers, rotors and pads.

But for $700 US more there's the StopTech kit. I am not willing to consider anything beyond that price range at all.

I drive my car on the street 8 months a year putting on 3,000 kms or so a year. I drag race only a few times a year.

But now I want to start a little road coarse racing as well. I will probably do this only once maybe twice a year though.

Will the Wilwood or Baer package be enough? Or do I really need to step up to the StopTech.

Or is even a good rotor and pad upgrade good enough to have some fun at a road coarse once a year?

Also there is the 13" Mustang Cobra Brembo upgrade I've seen. Where does this one fit in performance wise? Better then the Wilwood or Baer but not as good as the StopTech? Does anyone know how to source these calipers fairly cheaply?

In my opinion, for the driving you'll be doing - these options are all too expensive.
I mean, I'm sure they're good brakes - but I doubt you need to spend a thousand dollars to stop happily.

I passed this on to Nick, and he'll post around 3 when he's on break

A sneak peek:

See the tire? It cost me more than the brake setup on that corner

Well perhaps just a rotor upgrade with decent pads will do.

I'm going to be racing some damn fast cars at the track so I know I'll be pushing the car pretty good .

So let's hear some thoughts on:

1)Larger rotors with decent pads and SS lines

2)Wilwood/Baer/Cobra caliper/rotor/pad kit

3)StopTech kit (probably overkill)


I'm leaning towards a Nick Boers Cobra kit. He was suppose to make one for me but I never heard back . So if anyone knows where to source the calipers cheap let me know (I'm not an Ebay guy... but I looked on Ebay and they aren't cheap).

I have two pairs of brackets for the cobras.

http://www.stangsuspension.com/store/comersus_viewitem.asp?idproduct=434

http://www.steeda.com/store/-catalog/steedabrakes.htm

http://www.autotoyaz.com/mach1calipers.html

Enjoy

Also:

http://cgi.ebay.com/13-COBRA-BRAKES...564QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Ford-mustang-co...563QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/94-04-FORD-MUST...563QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Calipers and pads brand new for about $200 from most sources.

^^^
Ohhh, I thought it was the GT PBR calipers (like mine), that you had sets of brackets for

Either way, go with Nick for the best bang/buck.

So Rob, what are the details on your setup?

Front brakes upgraded to Mustang GT ('94-'04) dual piston calipers (PBR), and 300M rotors (stock, 11.7").

They're mounted with an adapter bracket and a hub-centric ring.
The calipers accept the 2G banjo fittings.
17" rims are likely the minimum.

It did not cost much more than $400, all said and done.

These are an obscene improvement over stock DSM brakes.
I could not even imagine the Cobra kit!

Hook me up Nick. Are you going to Yorkdale Sunday? If so I might just have to make the journey.

Rob, any idea if your setup fit under a 16" wheel?

I suspect the cobra setup wouldn't.

You may find that certain 16" wheels will clear, however the stock DSM 16s will not.
If you have something else and want to test fit, shoot me an e-mail. My car's in Mississauga and needs all the attention she can get

I believe the Cobras are actually of a smaller footprint due to their much different design.
Still too big for the 16s IIRC.

The cobras will fit a stock 17,and perhaps a few 16s. Some 17's (eagle alloy 160s for example) require a bit of grinding to fit.

The GTs (Rob's setup) will fit some 16s but not the stock ones. 17s are no problem.

Going to Mexico on sunday

I was thinking of the stock 16s. My car is a year-round daily driver and I've been looking for a better brake setup that would clear. Oh well...

The 2G 17s are a nice rim.
You could probably find a set for cheap!
And if you're worried about winter (17" winter tires = expensive), pick up some 16" steelies that'll clear the brakes.
What was it that fit, Nick? - Caravan? Stratus?

Go with the cobra calipers Mike, you wont regret it.

I upgraded mine to the dual piston and Bear decella rotors. I notice a BIG difference after the rotor upgrade. Realy digs in when u even touch the pedal.

Mike, might be abit to late, but I have to say the Wilwood Dynapro setup that I'm running works amazing. Seatbelts defently come into play on hard stops . I got the complete setup from Todd at TCE, which ran me $900 US total (12.2" 2 piece slotted & directionally vented rotors, 4 piston calipers,SS lines & polymatrix Q pads) as I upgraded the rotor that came in the kit. They have amazing customer service and can make a kit to fit all your needs.

Daren, did the rotor hats fit or did you have to grind them out a bit on a lathe to get it to fit flush? The Wilwoods use to have this problem anyway, not sure if they ever fixed it.

Double post.

Mitsu descided to change the design of their hubs and add a small step right before the face. Think they did this for the 3g's, so if you still have factory hubs you won't need to machine the hats. It looks like one of mine was repaced with the revised parts so I had to machine one of them. I was talking to Todd about what I had to do & this is what he told me. I guess some people were complaining to Wilwood about this vary subject so Todd was also saying they just recently contacted him about the issue & what exactly the problem was (redesigned hub). Sounds like they will or are machining the hats differently with a step so they will work with either hub.

Not that it matters for Mike, with 3000km per year but do those wilwoods have dust seals on the pistons? I know many wilwoods don't.

The BAER setup that looks like the cobras does so because it's the same caliper and rotor (they even say ford on them).

The Cobras, the Wilwoods and the Brembos i'm running will all put the seatbelts to serious work. The brakes will easily outrun the speedometer to 0

Pedal feel on the Cobras is good and stiff. The GT's feel somewhat squishy. The brembos are solid like a rock, the pedal barely moves. Braking force is controlled by pedal presure, not travel. It makes for consistent "hell-toe" downshifting because the pedal is always in the same place no matter how hard you're braking.

The 16" wheels i had for the winter were steel 5-spokes. They LOOKED like an aluminum wheel till you got close. I recall the guy at steelcase (wehre i got them) saying they used them for all the IS300s that the dealer sent over for snows. They cleared the GT brakes and the Brembos i have now. I don't think they will clear the Cobras though.

Most of the Wilwood calipers don't come with rubber boots but yes the dynapro calipers that I have are boosted. You can get them booted or unbooted with SS pistons, for more of a track setup.

With that said, I'm not sure the unbooted calipers are much of an issue. Out of all the unbooted kits that TCE has sold, they said they have only had about 2 that failed and this was after many years of use, in winter/salt conditions as well.

The Wilwood Calipers now have rubber boots. I have a set of 2G Brakes, drilled with red calipers in stock for anyone who's interested.

I've got Cobra parts on order. I'm going to try and find a good performance pad. I am leaning towards Porterfield R4-S pads.

Anyone know where to pick up some DOT approved SS lines?

Mike where'd you decide to order your cobra parts from?

I got them from a local jobber in town here. He's family so I got his cost. Calipers and rotors came to about $400 after tax.

You can get the calieprs for $225 US or so in the states but then there's the exchange and you need shipping and maybe border charges etc. So I might have save $20 that way but I'd rather just pick stuff up.

I ordered the Hawk HP Plus pads from a local performance shop and they might be in by tomorrow.

I am getting a full set of SS lines off Ziggy and the brackets and rings off Nick on Sunday.

These damn rotors are huge (13.1") . I just can't see how this setup is going to clear my 17" rims.

Motul 600 the recommended fluid?

I'll put pics up of the install.

These things barely clear my avenger rims.

mike if you have stock 17" talon rims (the 'blade' looking 5 spokes) then the cobra brakes will clear this setup no probs...but not by a whole lot. it will be similar to the pic dave posted. about 1 or 2mm between the caliper edge and the spokes. other than that it fits without needing to grind the caliper down.

remember to strap yourself in real good for that first brake lurch than sends you through the windshield!

I have Konig Sub Zeros. Guess I'll find out after I install one.

I have a 5 point harness for the track .

Unfortunately Nick was out of the centering rings for the rotors.

Does anyone know where to get these or have the ability to make them?

Nick can you share what specs you know for them?

I need this setup installed in less then 3 weeks now. This is the only peice missing.

Thanks.

^^^
Mike, give Johnston & Magwood a call (Burnhamthrope/Mavis in Mississauga).

When I bought my rims there, they came with the same dimension rings that Nick gave me for my big rotors.
I have the GT setup, so make sure that's the same ring used for Cobra.

Rob, your rotors are from a 300M, not a mustang. They have a different ring.

Mike: 67mm inside, 2.800" outside.

You also need 0.4" of spacer between the bracket and caliper. Keep the pins and bleeders at the top.

Well I meant the "Boers GT Setup"
The shop may have the right ones though, so it could be worth a shot.

Let's see if I understand what this ring is correctly. It is a metal ring of the same or similar thickness as the rotor where it mates to the hub. It sits on the hub and the inside of the ring sit snug against the part of the hub that sticks out and the stock rotor hole fits against. The ring fills the gap between this surface and where the larger Cobra rotor hole is.

This would keep the rotor centered and fixed. Otherwise there would be some slop (very bad) and stress on the studs.

So if this is the case the ring should be made of a durable metal (suggestions), a very simple ring shape with no other features (holes etc) and be of the same thickness of the rotor or a little less?

Pretty much a hub centric ring for the rotor to the hub as oppossed to the wheel to the hub.

Don't think the metal is important. The ring is there just to hold the rotor center while the wheel is off and the rotor is loose and used for centering with the hub. Once the rotor is on and the wheel torqued down, the rotor is "clamped" in place between hub and the wheel and the ring isn't doing much anymore. Supposedly baers kit is an aluminum ring but i wouldn't be to worried about choosing the "perfect" material. Heck, my rims hubcentric rings are plastic.

Ok, sounds like you have an OD and an ID, sounds like aluminum is good enough, and they don't need any holes in them. Now get me a thickness and I should be able to make you a set....

Zig, what would it cost to make some extras? Seems some other people want brackets too.

Nick, let me know what sort of tolerances, and how thick, and how many you would want....

These would be a very THIN walled ring according to those sizes. 2.638ID, 2.800 OD. = .081 wall. Does that sound right to you??

5-10 thou big on the inside, 5-10 thou small on the ouside. About .200" wide.

I have to verify the outside diameter, because i remember them being thinner than that. I measured the inside off some DSM rotors, but i don't have a mustang one to check to verify the 2.800

Uhh.... 10 pair?

Appears to be 70.5mm from what i find online.

I just measured about ~70.2mm. I will double check that again.

Good thing I double checked. The actual measured diameter I am getting on the rotor I have is 71.17~71.22mm (approx 2.800").

So I little under that should work.

Ok, I will get these done, but can't promise for before the weekend..hope that is OK?? So, to confirm, I am doing 2.795 - 2.799OD, 2.640 - 2.645 ID, and .190 - .200 thick??

I just measured the Cobra rotor thickness there at 7.22mm (0.2845"). So 0.200" would fit no problem.

so should I make them a little wider? Maybe .25?

.200 wide is fine. The hub has a radius that prevents the ring from going flush with the face and it will stick out another .100" or so. If it's any wider it will start to interfere with the wheel mounting.

They must be using a step in the hub, one diameter for the rotor and one for the wheel. I just KNEW it was 2.8" hehe.

Just to "jump in" about other options:

What options are there that fit under a stock 1G 16" rim.

If I stick with those wheels, am I limited to the stock dual-piston calipers/rotors?

I've got nothing that will fit the stock 16's. Stock dual piston is where it's at for you, with some good pads.

Thanks, Nick. I found an old post of yours saying the same thing, so they're already on there.

I REALLY need to replace that 13/16" master though. Would a 15/16" be worth putting in? (I've got one sitting in the garage) Or should I just get the 1" ?

this is what i got and they work awsome

The non-ABS cars have 15/16, and the ABS cars have 1". I don't know where the 13/16" comes from. Of course, i don't have CAPS running, and i've had a lot of wine

The 3G Eclipse uses a 17/16 and it bolts up to the booster. You'll have to make new lines to the prop. valve though, but it's not hard. I put one in when i went to the Porsche brembos.

The larger master will make the pedal stiffer, and reduce the travel required. You'll be pressing harder, but the pedal will move less. With the 17/16 and the Brembos (which are super stiff calipers) the pedal is rock solid. Once the pads touch the rotors it barely moves at all no matter how hard you push. It makes blipping the throttle with the side of the foot under brakin verhy consistent because the two pedals are always in the same spot relative to eachother.

www.car-part.com to search wreckers for them.

I haven't actually LOOKED yet (I've never take it out of the car) but I believe 90's came with a 13/16.

Looking at caps, the 89.3-90.6 cars DO have a seperate PN for the master.

I'll try the 15/16" and see how I like it.

The pedal travel is what I DON'T like, with the way it currently is.

Dodge Stealth w/ ABS have a 1.25" Master Cylinder and a 1" on Non ABS cars I have ran one for years the lines are slightly different and the bottle mounts on the MC not remote like a T/E/L 13/16" come on colts/summmit vans

The 3G eclipse reservoir is attached to the master as well.

Turns out my car came with a 15/16" master, so I can't confirm that the 13/16" were ever put on early models.

(Luckily I used a mirror, instead of removing it to find out!)

So, looks like I might try to squish in a 17/16" afterall.

No squishing required. It bolts right in, you just have to make up new lines to go from the master to the proportioning valve.

Finally installing these. Nick you said keep the right bracket on the right and the left bracket on the left but switch the calipers right?

Should the calipers sit higher or lower in the arc then the stock ones?

Also what should I do with the dust sheild. Is it okay just to remove it?

Actually I think on the safety form for the track it said "Dust sheild cut or removed." Does that mean they want it removed or I fail if it's removed?

Can someone who's done this mod dumb it down for me.

First off the spacer Nick mentioned needs to go between the two brackets is it really 0.4"... that's 10mm. That seems big to me. If that is right am I suppose to just use a bunch of washers?

Next could someone explain how the brackets go on. I go the pins at the top, bleeder at the top part.

1) So does the Boer's bracket adapter bolt to the back side or the rotor side?
2) Once that's in place does the caliper bracket go on the back side of it or the rotor side of it?

FYI you will need to buy 8 M12 bolts to bolt the brackets up.

Any help would be appreciated. I am also taking some pics to help anyone else through the process. Quick responses would be great as I need this installed asap.

Yes its 10mm, basically 4 thick washers.

1. back side
2. forgot, but when you put the rotor on it can only go on one way

Here are some pics to help you out.

Damn Dave that's perfect thanks. I was searching Talk and Tuners too trying to find a pic.

The Cobra backets then would go front side of the Boer's bracket.

The brakes will be on tonight .

FYI though it looks like the above pic has the caliper on the wrong side of the car. Pin and bleeder should both be at the top.

Well the calipers and rotors are on. I got 20 thick washers and had 8 ~1mm thin ones that I bought last night. To get the bracket centered on the rotors was a bit tricky. When adding the washers I had to try differnt combinations of washers to get bracket centered over the rotor.

I think both top ones were 4 thick washers but the drivers side low was 3 thick washers while the passenger side low was 3 thick 4 thin.

Anyway it all looks good now. After work I will remove the stock calipers and lines and install the stainless lines.

Anyone wany to recommend a good fluid? I bought a bottle of the Ford DOT 3 550 stuff.

sounds like those spacers fit OK for the rotors??

Spacers were absolutely perfect . I just pressed them on the hub with my fingers then I had to lightly easy them back all the way by lightly tapping around it with a screw driver and small hammer. Nice tight fit. I put the rotors on and again it was a nice tight fit. Perfecto.

cool..that is what I like to hear

Goodrich lines were great too. They are DOT approved, lengths and fittings were perfect and they even came with all new hardware (clips crush washers and banjo bolts).

I finished installing everything and just bedded in the pads. These things can lock up my tires no problem . I'll post pics when I get a chance.

The pad surface area doesn't look any bigger then the 2G pad areas. Also the calipers arean't much bigger. But it looks like the main gains are a much larger rotor to disipate the heat and the fact that the clamping force has been moved much further from the center of the wheel.

They also fill in the wheel much better then the stock setup. It no longer looks under braked .

The Hawk HP Plus (not HPS) bite great but do squeal a little. I forgot to use any smurf juice so that might be why. I'll probably pull them off and goop them if it bugs me too much.

Aww yours dont say cobra, send them back!

Mike,

really contact spot and heat dissipation area is all that matters. Specially heat dissipation area.

I figured when I painted my rotors even without cleaing them or anything(read HALF ASS), they stayed clean(no rust) for much longer. if you use high temp paint, it might stay nonrusty for a while?


do you have clipers you want to sell now?

Note: The pads look like it doesn't matter which ones go where (outter left could go inner right and still fit) but it does matter. On the outter ones there is a rivet holding on one of the clip springs and there is a recess in the caliper for these. If you put the on wrong the rivet will be pushing into the cyliner and boot.


I love that they aren't marked Cobra actually. They are nice and stealthy .

What are you doing with your old set?

Which crank pulley are you running btw?
I thought undamped were a no-no ?

Thanks

Sorry guys the old brakes are spoken for.

I think it's an unorthadox pulley. It was put on 2 owners ago so it wasn't my choice. I too have read about bad effects from an undamped pulley but don't know for sure.

Okay, looking on the DSM talk boards, as well as others, I have never seen this setup before!! I have been looking for a Big Brake upgrade since I autox the car, and the factory brakes fade too quickly, even being cross drilled and slotted. Where can I find this magickal set up?

Just to follow up on my pedal problems..

I've finally finished replacing the old, rubber lines with SS braided ones, and upgraded the brake master from a 15/16" to a 1".

Pedal feel has GREATLY improved.