Any interest in this 2g Koni suspension setup?

I came across this Koni based suspension setup & it looks like a pretty descent setup. I contacted Ziggy about machining & he's going to get back to me with a ballpark cost. But what I'm wondering if anyone else might be interested in this setup as well, as there would be some cost savings by having more then one set machined. The other area of savings is the top plates should be hard anodized. I believe Ziggy knows a local source for this but like most places there's a min order charge, so getting more then one set done will have a cost advantage as well.

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross/konis.html

I would definitely be interested in this! Any idea as to what the cost may be?

Well I guess alot depends on the machining/finishing cost but hopefully not a whole lot more then the Koni/Ground control setup & I believe this is far superior.

In US prices the Konis run around the $600 mark for the set, I've seen the Koni sleeves (c/w lower perch & top hat) from ~180-280 for the set. Hypercoil springs are supposed to be availabe for right around $50 each & the nice thing is they have a wide range of spring rates, so if the purpose of the car changes, a cheap spring swap is all thats required (head Hypercoils are excellent springs as well & aren't supposed to sag). I believe the spherical bearings are around $100 for all 4. So then there's just the helper springs & torrington bearings which I believe are fairly low cost. So that should basically cover it other then the machining. I haven't done any shopping around for the best rates but this should give a ballpark figure.

This setup works awesome and probably one of the best setups to run on a 2g. If you can get the items machined and source the parts, I'd be all for doing this if i had a 2g 9spyders up for sale this summer). From what I've read this setup is far superior to anything "off the shelf".

I already have a set of Koni's with Ground Control Coilovers on them so I'd be looking to have these converted to the new hotness. I'm mostly interested in the coaxial hats.

IF you can't find anyone else I have a machine shop at work and what I would refer to as "developing skills". An excellent quality hard anodize is about $100-$150 for a lot of anysize.

could also help out with ordering the bearings and such

Mmmm, defenately interested. I'll try to keep reading this tread. Feel free to drop me a line if you guys come up to a final price.

I do not say that I'll comit but again will consider.

Ghislain.

I guess Ziggys interweb access is down for abit, but when I hear back, I'll update as far as the machining goes.

Did abit more checking around today & have seen the torrington bearings listed from ~$8-20 a piece & the helper springs are ~$20-22 a piece. Now I guess if your looking to do this with a minimum budget, I believe both these items can be deleted or added later down the road. The helper springs completely colapse once there weigth on them, they just prevent the main spring from moving around if you happen to see a condition where your taking all the weight off the corner, which I would assume wouldn't normally happen unless your doing some very aggressive road course driving. The torrington bearing go under the helper spring & just allow easier adjustment & prevent binding of the lower perch. If your not going to adjust these much, probably don't need them. I'm thinking their mainly there for the guys that are wanting to adjust the perches with the vehicle on the ground.

I was wrong with the torrington bearings, looks like their usually right around the $20 mark a piece. The ones that I came accross were just the bearing portion, you needed to buy the races seperatly, so they end up being close to the $20 mark. I have only been browsing through suspension sits, so maybe an industrial bearing place would have better prices? It appears from what I said above the torrington bearing also helps with binding under normal suspension travel, as the springs tend to twist under compression/rebound as well.

So for ballpark figures so far (US$) you'd be looking at:

Shocks: $600
Sleeves & perches: $200-280
Spherical bearings: $100
Hypercoils: $240
Helper springs: $90
Torrington bearing: $80
Machining & anodize: $?? (working on it)

Total ~$1310-1390 +Machining

Obviously if you already have the Konis, you have a good head start.

Edit: So this won't be a real "budget" setup, but I think it will give you a huge "bang for the buck" performance. From the research I've done, this setup will blow away any of the other of the shelf setups in this price range & even the ones that are priced a good deal higher. It seems as though alot of the big, expensive Japanese coilovers aren't all their cracked up to be.

Sounds good Daren, Keep us updated as to the machining costs.. i'd like to be able to use this with my Ground Control perches and springs too, not sure if it will work or not though.

For some reason, I still can't SEND emails. I tried to send this info to Daren, but am currently unable to.

The upper and lower standoffs, a set of 8, to provide material and machine them, but WITHOUT plating them, would be $135. for the set of 8

The aluminum upper mount plates, again to provide material and machine them, but WITHOUT the anodizing, the set of four would be $225.

The grooves in the shocks themselves, I think the cost of shipping them to me and back again would make it too expensive. I would suggest guys get that done somewhere local..

I already have a similar setup comprised of off-the-shelf parts.

• Koni Sports
• Ground Control Coilover Kit
• Eibach ERS Springs
• RRE Pillowball Upper Mounts
• Ground Control Coaxial Spring Hats

I don’t have any helper springs, but plan to get a pair for the rear. Don’t need them for the front as my front springs never become unseated at full droop.

The torrington bearings may help, but I suspect it’d be negligible. There’s many others things that should be done first. Like replacing the center rubber bushing on the front lower lateral control arm with a spherical bearing, and installing SPC adjustable front upper control arms.

Long story short, you can build a comparable suspension with readily available off-the-shelf products without having to machine new parts.

This setup is fairly similar to yours Scott but I don't think your's is really all that much more, "off-the-shelf". The only things required to be machined are just the standoffs (which are very basic) & I would imagine your running some sort of these? If so, what part of your setup did they come with or did you by them seperate? It looks like you may even be able to get custom standoff from one of the main Koni distributors in the US, for ~$6 each. For the RRE top plates, last time I heard they were a super long wait & by looking at their site, it looks like ther still a back ordered item & cost is $380US. I think I remember reading someone did use them with this type of setup but had to mod them abit? So you could always go that route as well.

$6. each for the standoffs would be about right if someone is making them by the thousands. The top plates, I am not surprised some places are charging that much. I found material cost alone for the four pieces to be over $60., so at $225., and for the amount of time I would have to spend, I am really not charging much....but I would be a lot happier NOT making them, LOL.

That standoff price of $6 was listed for a custom size & their standard sizes were about half that cost. But I'm just going by what was listed on their price list, so that $6 a piece for a custom size may not be true for the ones required here.

Those RRE plates do include the spherical bearings aready (~$100US) & are hard anodized, so thats incorporated into the price. So I think Ziggy's price seems pretty descent.

I was just about to order a koni/GC combo this week but if this can be done cost effectively I would definitely be in.

My RRE plates included the standoffs, spherical bearings, anodized plates and mounting hardware for $180 USD per pair.

I only got them for the front, as that's where they're needed the most. The rear shocks do not pivot at the mount nearly as much as the front, so rear pillowball mounts are not as important.

The only customizing / modification I did was to shorten the (front) lower standoffs by 3/8" to allow for some additional shock travel, but that's a common thing to do with the RRE plates.

Scott, do you happen to have any pics of your setup, I'd be interested to see it? Your top perch from GC, does it isolate the spring like the one does in this setup? Also are you using a 2.25" or 2.5" spring & what lengths?

I'd be interested in this as well. I'm looking for a long-lasting well performing adjustable setup.

I'm in.

Okay, so I think by reading through this thread, you should have a pretty good idea on the ballpark price were looking at. Now as was mentioned things like the helper springs & torrington bearings aren't a must to save some $ & can easily be added down the road. Ziggy has listed the machining prices for the plates & the bushings & there might be a small amount of room for improvement if other get in on this as well. I'm still looking into the hardanodizing (& need to confirm) but looks like its probably $100-150 for one set & will still be that price with several more sets (so obviously the more who want the plates, the less it will be).

As Scott had mentioned, these plates won't be 100% specific to this setup. You could run them with any Koni coil-over setup so again, you could run Ground-Control coilovers with their coxial hat & end up with the same sort of setup.

I have found a local source for the spherical bearings. They have two versions available. The one speced in this setup is a high quality version & it will run $40 a piece CDN (cash price) & there is also a lesser version that will run you $20 a piece CDN (cash price)

For the Hypercoils, it looks like I'm able to get them for $50 a piece (so $200 total) & the Koni sports for $620 total. This is in USD & shipping would be extra & has to be to a US address (because they are not an actual retailer). I was told they will price match so may be able to do abit better, if anyone can find them for less & if others are interested, should be able to get abit better pricing.

I'm having a cheap DSMer moment here, but does the upper mount plate have to be done in aluminum? I know it's better to save the weight, but the material and annodizing are certainly going to dive up the cost. What material are the RRE plates?

I believe the RRE plates are aluminum & I think every other top plate I've seen has also been aluminum. Though not sure if most of them are hard anodized or just regular anodizing. I guess if you really wanted to you don't have to have the top plates hard anodized (maybe just clear cost them to give them some protection) but this setup should basically be the last suspension setup you'll ever need & I think the hard anodizing will stand up, so this can happen. If there's 3-4 people interested in getting the top plates the hard anodizing is probably on $40 a person, which I think is well worth the cost, in long term benefits.

Also it looks like these sperical bearings are a much better bearing then alot of the other companies use. I have know idea what RRE uses but you see on other online forums where guys are going through several sets a season. Thats shouldn't be the case with the ones speced here. Those common failing ones, go for something like $10 ea US. The ones that I found for $40 locally are going for $45 ea US, so that seems like a good find.

Jeff, switching materials would NOT make it any cheaper, unless you went to a hard plastic, which I don't think I would trust enough. To go from aluminum to steel, you might save $50. on the material, but you will lose more than that on the machining time (therefore cost).

Fair enough, just figured I'd ask.

For those of you who don't know this is the suspension setup Dennis Grant used to win the final autocross championship(s) he won with his 2G AWD, by far one of the most develped suspensions designes specifically, and not just adapted for a 2G.

Is anyone else looking for Koni shocks &/or hypercoils? I'm currently working with a couple places, best price I've seen on both is $560 US for the Knois & $200 for the Hypercoils. I will be ordering both regardless but if your looking to pick up a set then we can save on shipping & brokerage. If your seriously interested (ie your going to buy them & wouldn't mind saving abit on shipping/brokerage) then contact me via PM. Again thats US$, so you could ballpark $40US shipping, $12CDN brokerage (these could both be less depending on if more then one other wants in) & of course 13% taxes. So your looking at $1100 ballpark for both items (this could vary with exchange, etc). If your not serious please don't waste my time or yours.

Okay, I guess the next thing is to see who or if anyone else is interested in the top plates. These will work with other Koni setups & not sure but may work with other shocks as well (since I would assume all the ends designed for our factory setups would have the same shaft end diameter). As Ziggy mentioned the cost of material & machining for 4 plates will be $225 +tax, if there's more interest that may go down abit but there's not much room to move. I found someone local for the spherical bearings & was told $40 ea CDN for the ones spec'd (good price, most places are asking 40-45 US) or they have a cheaper one that should work as well at $20 CDN (though if your going this far, not sure why you'd cheap out on the bearing). I got a price on hard anodizing, not sure if this is absolutely required but it does add a very tough finish & as far as I know strengthens the material as well. I was quoted $210 CDN for the min order charge, & they can probably do three sets for that price. So if someone else wants theirs anodized its $105 & if there's two others interested, you'd be looking at $70. If you seriously interested in these plates, post up here, then we can go from there.

No pictures, but it looks practically identical to the photos on http://farnorthracing.com/autocross/konis.html (minus the helper springs & torrington bearings).

The GC spring hat isolates the spring from the RRE plate, and allows the spring to pivot & remain coaxial to the shock shaft without bending.

I'm using 2.5" Eibach ERS springs. You can get them real cheap at http://www.racewerx.com/springs.htm. I bought a set from them myself.

Lengths are 8" front, possibly 7" rear (can't remember exactly).

My spring rates are 500F/400R in winter and 900F/400R in summer. I have the crazy front spring rate in summer because I run big 275/40R17 race tires in competition, which require lots of roll resistance to keep the tire off the fender.

I'm in for the top plates. You left out the price for the standoffs above though.. Ziggy said $135 for them.

So for anyone wondering:
$225 - 4 Top Plates
$160 - 4 Spherical Bearings
$135 - 8 Standoffs (Upper/Lower)
----
$520 - Total, non-anodized.

I dunno if i'd go for the anodizing or not.. I'd think about it at the $70 price.

What are the extra shock grooves for anyways? I don't understand their purpose.

Yes, your right Greg, if you need the standoffs, Ziggy quoted $135 for material & machining. I have a lath a work & the stand offs seem pretty straight forward, so I was planning on trying to make my own.

The anodizing isn't cheap but I think its probably worth it in the long run (especially if we have 3 people interested). The hard anodizing is supposed to be a much tougher finish then your typical anodizing, so it should last much longer & I had read that when aluminum is hard anodized, it makes it as stong or stronger then steel. This price was just a first contact price, maybe if we did cash or didn't need their typical 3-4 day turnaround they could give us abit of a break. I just put the prices out there so the cost would be known & any savings that could be had would be a bonus.

I believe the extra shock grooves are just required when your using the Koni threaded sleevs. Their internal stop must be in a different location vs the GC sleeve. So basically the grove is just to move the factory location of the snap ring, so that the Koni sleeve is installed at the proper location. I would imagine this isn't required for the guys running the GC setup as they look like they end up in approx the same location when installed.

Thanks for the info Scott, I guess its probably best to keep the info in this thread instead of PM. So I'm wondering what you think of the 400r/500f combo for Daily driving (your still running stock valved shocks, correct)? I've heard the 400r might be abit stiff from some users. My car's a summer daily driver & currently just see's drag track use (though I may eventually want to try turning corners as well, lol) so I was thinking the 350R, 500F combo?

The 400R are quite bouncy with stock valved Koni Sport shocks. It's about as stiff as you'd ever want to go for the rear, unless you get the shocks revalved (I haven't). For a street application, I'd say 350-375 rear would likely be better. Keep in mind that due to the rear suspension geometry, changes in rear rates have a much larger effect than changes in the front. So a 25-50 lb/in change in the rear might be the equivalent to a 100 lb/in change in the front (just pulling numbers out of my ass, but you get the idea).

In the front, I find 500 great for the street. It's not until you get into sticky race tires that you need more front spring.

Here's some pics of my Eibach spring / Ground Control coaxial spring hat / RRE pillowball upper mount:

Thanks for all the info & pics Scott, I think I'll give the 350/500 combo a try.

I thought I would post up a good summary for future reference as to why go to all this trouble for a coxial top hat, that I found on another board (its a response to a comment about the performance gains being small from this mod):

All of the upper hats on the market (besides DGs) are just a spherical bearing plate replacing a bushed upper hat for the shock rod to mount. In that situation I agree with you. The issue for DSM 2g suspension in particular is that the lower shock mount. It is a wishbone shape and it allows the axle to pass through the wishbone and then the shock mounts at the top center of the wishbone. The problem is that the other end of the wishbone does not mount to the LCA, it mounts to the spindle which means its rotating around the steering axis. On a supra suspension for example the angle of the damper unit in relation to the upper hat changes just a few degrees and its effect of the bushing is minimal. On a 2g its more like 15 degrees (in any direction) so your compressing one side of the spring 1/2" or more just to achieve a steering motion with no movement of the suspension otherwise. It can get even worse when compressed and at high steering angles. Its really gnarly, its moving on 5 axis at least. So the key thing that DG suspension resolved was the coaxial spring upper hats. They keep the spring mounted TO the spherial bearing (not just the damper rod on the spherical). None of the upper hats resolve the problem except DGs. Their effect is minimal I wouldn't even spend the money on them except going for that last degree on a RACE ONLY car. The high frequency noise transmissability of the spherical is a nasty tradeoff for a street car (considering your gain is negligible). But that's if you didnt have the damper angle problem we have on 2gs we're kind of forced to go with a spherical just to solve the other problem.

I have spherical bearing upper hats on my daily driver and I honestly didn't notice any any additional road noise. YMMV.