2g head 6 bolt block - Club DSM Canada

Posted By: Nigel Hap

2g head 6 bolt block - November 28, 2012 06:57 pm UTC

Hey guys, this thought had crossed my mind after doing some reading on tuners, anyone here done this and have any idea on what it takes/how complicated it is... I have a rebuilt 2g head and 6 bolt block potentially at my disposal

Thank you

Posted By: Bryan Lawrence

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - November 28, 2012 07:24 pm UTC

I know the holes for the head bolts are smaller on the 7bolt so those will have to be opened up. And some water passages are different so you will need to plug/open some.

Posted By: Nigel Hap

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - November 28, 2012 07:49 pm UTC

Yea that's what I found in my reasons aswell, but i'm real confused about the oil pump/ crank sensor

Posted By: Bryan Lawrence

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - November 28, 2012 08:08 pm UTC

Well crank sensor shouldn't be an issue, one of the reasons guys keep the 2g head on a 6 bolt block is so they don't have to worry about it. I am not sure about the oil pump though.

Posted By: Andrew Trapp

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - November 28, 2012 09:09 pm UTC

Originally Posted by Bryan Lawrence

I know the holes for the head bolts are smaller on the 7bolt so those will have to be opened up. And some water passages are different so you will need to plug/open some.

Correct on the head stud holes, however, this is the first time I have heard about water passages having to be fiddled with got any additional information?

For the front case, you have three options:
a) 6-bolt - no longer can mount 2g crank sensor
b) modded 7-bolt - have to machine it to match up the holes, but can use the 2g crank sensor
c) 6-bolt hyundai - not doable on an AWD without some voodoo, you need the matching oil pan and it doesn't have the proper clearance

The whole front case is all about keeping the 2g crank sensor. The 1g's get that signal from the camshaft sensor. With a stock ECU it is possible to split the signal from the 1g cas to the 2g cam and crank signal. The negative is you'll get a CEL for misfire most likely, with DSM Link, you can choose to ignore that CEL. The 1g cas is capable of providing both signals, however, the 2g cas is not.

Theoretically, the 2g setup with the two different sensors is the better system. However, it isn't definitive. People have done great things with feeding the 1g cas to both ECU inputs.

What I'm doing with my 2g head, 6bolt block is option 4 - Kiggly racing 6-bolt trigger http://www.kigglyracing.com/parts/cranktrigger.htm. It is meant to give the crank signal to the 2g ECU. This allows me to keep using the 2g cas and have a proper crank signal.

So in summary, unless you pick up a kiggly trigger, you need a 1g cas and some modifications to your wiring (or buy a pre-built harness) to do a 6-bolt in a 2g.

Actually, all above is kinda missing the mark. To use a 2g head, just the holes on the head have to be bored out a bit to fit the larger head studs. Everything else is exactly the same as a regular "6-bolt in a 2g". The one bonus of using a 2g head is you can use either 2g waterpipe, thermostat housing, and neck OR 1g waterpipe, thermostat housing, and neck.

Posted By: Bryan Lawrence

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - November 28, 2012 09:17 pm UTC

Fill or plug the water fitting on the front of the engine block.

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/1g2gheadswaptechtip.htm

Posted By: Andrew Trapp

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - November 28, 2012 09:25 pm UTC

That is a 1g head on a 2g block.

Posted By: Bryan Lawrence

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - November 28, 2012 09:56 pm UTC

My bad, found a post that sums it up pretty good

Originally Posted by kthackst

1. did magnus over complicate the oil pump? i've read where a galant oil pump works perfectly. Although it would worry me that a non turbo ouil pump might not have the same flow rate as a oem turbocharged powerplant, is their a difference? what the purpose for keeping the 2g pump, is it for the crank angle sensor?

Magnus used the modified 2g oil pump BEFORE they figured out the 6 bolt CAS can send both the crank and the cam signals. The most common way people do the 6 bolt swap is to use the 6 bolt CAS and remove the 7bolt crank angle sensor since there is no location for it on the 6 bolt oil pump.

2.what parts do i need to keep 2g and or 1g?

2g stuff. Head, tstat housing, water pipe, intake gasket.
1g stuff. block, crank, rods and pistons, water pump, oil pump, oil pan, rear main seal, and any gasket on the lower end.
head gasket and exhaust gasket can be from 90-99.

3. motor mounts, is this as easy as just shaving the metal down to fit? similar to the 2g water pump that needs to be used?

You will need a jigsaw or some way to cut off a large chuck of the motor mount bracket. It will be obvious when you go to bolt it on.

4. what compression would my engine be with this setup? and should i get some 2g pistons with wrist pins machined to fit on the 1g rods?

Compression ~178psi for a 2g
~165psi for a 1g

the 2g/1g combo is a proven awesome budget combo. Dont let anyone talk you out of it.

5. i should buy a BSE kit for the 2g?
Sure why not, that answer is up to you.

7. which head gasket should i need to buy? i'm most likely going with oem so if you happen to have that part # that would be great.
Any head gasket from 90-99 would work. only go MLS if you are getting both the head and block resurfaced for it. How do you know if your surface is good for MLS. TELL the machine shop BEFORE you get it decked. Dont worry about using a OEM composite gasket because with ARPs you can hit 30psi safely (with a good tune and appropiately sized turbo.)

8.is their anything I have missed?
The head stud holes in the 2g head will need to be drilled open to accept the 1g headstuds. the 1g head studs are larger than the 2g.

Posted By: Jay Stacey

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - November 28, 2012 11:22 pm UTC

i believe one head stud hole has to be drilled out a bit more for oil passage. the rest are drilled out to 1/2inch. buy a new drill bit. i have ran a 2g head on a 6bolt from day one of m dsm life. some say its the way to go. i used the 6bolt T housing and water pipe. this was in a 1g so cas wasnt an issue .. now its going into a 2g so i will be wireing in the 1g cas.

i used a 2g throttlebody with custom sensors for my 90.

Posted By: Nigel Hap

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - November 28, 2012 11:51 pm UTC

Wow guys there's a lot of great info here... Thanks a lot. I'm not sure which route i'm gunna go even tho 1g cas sounds the easiest at this point

Posted By: Jay Stacey

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - November 29, 2012 12:06 am UTC

the only differance in reason of 6 or 7 bolt is crankwalk and bigger rods. unless yer gonna make over 400hp then the bigger rods arnt neccessary, the lighter 7bolt rods will be more benificial. less rotating mass weight. Also crank walk risk, can be cured when you rebiuld a 7bolt that hasnt walked yet.

Posted By: Ghislain Goudreau

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - November 29, 2012 01:40 am UTC

Good day all.

I have been thinking about this for years. Not that I would of been the first one to do so; but as the benefit.

2G Heads have smaller Intake Port. Their design are also slightly different. Both of these "features" allow for better lower end Torque by increasing intake air "velocity". Castings; for whatever reason are also way more "streamline" with the Valve Seats and need way less "Porting Time" to acheave superior (velocity) results.

Those carateristic' can be beneficial up to a certain point. That being said; some have been using a 2G Head on a 6 Bolts with up to 600/700hp without been much of a "choke".

CRV Intake manifold (do not ask me what year) will bolt up and also allow for decent lower end Torque. One extreame would be a 2.4L with a 50 Trim Turbo, 272 Cams for Duty. That thing could be a "torqy" thing but would probably run out of "good steam" at a lower RPM.

A 2G Head on 1G 2.0L Bottom Head can allow for more "top end" Powa. Again some could be surprised how much "wind" can be pushed through a 2G Head.

As for a 2G BottomEnd; They can defenitaly witstand as much as a 6 Bolt BottomEnd. Keep CW out of this topic because some have proved otherwise.

GizThaWiz!!!

Posted By: Rob Cauduro

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - November 29, 2012 02:17 am UTC

Block the oil squirters with 6mm dowel pins, and build the 7 bolt. The squirters share the same oil feed tapped off the main galley with the main bearings , and they stick open after time. Oil then takes the shortest route, out of the open squirters rather than feeding your mains. Over time this results in a starved thrust, and voila, crank walk.

IMO, the 2g motor is a better design all around, minus the squirters

Posted By: Bryan Lawrence

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - November 29, 2012 02:19 am UTC

Or you can hunt down a 1999 engine which has fixed squirters.

Posted By: Rob Cauduro

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - November 29, 2012 02:25 am UTC

Wrong, they didn't fix the squirters, because in order to do that the entire casting would have had to be changed to get the squirters to feed from the main galley rather than share a tapped line to the main.

All they did was not put the groove in the girdle which accepts one half of a normal thrust bearing, and switched to a 4 piece thrust bearing. This "fix" was to allow what ever oil is there to get in between the crank and bearings more easily because only half of the circumference of the thrust on the crank was contacting bearing.

Posted By: Rob Cauduro

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - November 29, 2012 02:27 am UTC

FYI, u can make a non split thrust bottom end into a split thrust very easily. It involves some tack welding and some good filing by hand.

If anyone is interested ill do it for u.

Posted By: Nigel Hap

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - November 29, 2012 04:22 am UTC

Wow I would have never found a wealth of knowledge like this anywhere, I appreciate the support guys ... I hope I make the right choice and the build goes smoothly

Posted By: Bryan Lawrence

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - November 29, 2012 01:56 pm UTC

Good to know Rob, I knew they fixed it but never found out how.

Posted By: Rob Cauduro

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - November 29, 2012 06:03 pm UTC

Originally Posted by Bryan Lawrence

Good to know Rob, I knew they fixed it but never found out how.

IMO, they didnt fix it. They just made a change (which was actually less work from a manufacturing stand point and saved machining costs) that really only prolongs the result of starved thrust.

Given the squirters DO open up, its supposed to be at Higher RPM, when the engine is boosting, and the oil pressure is high and abundant.

At a cold start with your foot on the clutch, or at idle, or at low rpm's, with low oil pressure while pressing the clutch in, theres little to no oil on the thrust if the oil is bypassing the bearings.

This is the same for ALL the main bearings.

Block the squirters and this pretty much solves the chance of lost oil to your crank main bearings.

Compensate the cooling of the pistons with some water or meth spray.

Posted By: Jay Stacey

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - November 29, 2012 06:11 pm UTC

i didnt knowthe actual reason but i read somehwere that the first motoors didn have the problem untill they moved engine assembly to the states in 95 and americans cheaped out manufacturing cost and this is what led to the crankwalk pleg.

Posted By: Rob Cauduro

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - November 29, 2012 06:15 pm UTC

Originally Posted by Jay Stacey

i didnt knowthe actual reason but i read somehwere that the first motoors didn have the problem untill they moved engine assembly to the states in 95 and americans cheaped out manufacturing cost and this is what led to the crankwalk pleg.

Cheaped out how? Low flowing castings? Bad curing castings shifting over time? Low quality check valves in the squirters? Im interested in reading the source of your comment!

ALL MOTORS CAN CRANK WALK. All it takes is a starvation of oil to the trust.

Posted By: Jay Stacey

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - November 29, 2012 11:24 pm UTC

I read it years ago, prolly never find the artickle again.. Just looked but cant find anything on it. But I did read it. But I been reading that from 1995 on, they were using substandard cranks and mitsubishi did not have alot to do with the dsm world after that point.

Leave it to the domestic market to kill a perfect japaneze car. Sure any car can get it but some are prone to it then others.. enough to get a rep for it. My GMC envoy is known for it aswell.

Just for the record i just read that the 420 was not excepted as a us domestic cause it was produced in mexico. US government actually made DSM label it as an Import.

Posted By: Jason Drew

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - November 30, 2012 02:35 pm UTC

There are quite a few 6 bolts that have walked as well. Also the Toyota crowd keeps it pretty hush hush, but there are probably just as many 2jz's that have walked as 4G63's.

Posted By: Alex Akachinskiy

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - December 04, 2012 10:50 pm UTC

Originally Posted by Jay Stacey

I read it years ago, prolly never find the artickle again.. Just looked but cant find anything on it. But I did read it. But I been reading that from 1995 on, they were using substandard cranks and mitsubishi did not have alot to do with the dsm world after that point.

Leave it to the domestic market to kill a perfect japaneze car. Sure any car can get it but some are prone to it then others.. enough to get a rep for it. My GMC envoy is known for it aswell.

Just for the record i just read that the 420 was not excepted as a us domestic cause it was produced in mexico. US government actually made DSM label it as an Import.

I would agree with you if nothing changed in the engines except where they being assembled.
But 95 and up 4G63 uses different internal lubrication system.
I strongly support magnus theory on crankwalk
http://magnusmotorsports.com/tech-articles/crankwalk-theory/

Quote

The 1g blocks use an oil squirter from the main oil gallery where there is always adequate volume and flow. The 2g squirters are taking oil from the main bearing journals which share oil with the mains and connecting rods.

Posted By: Rob Cauduro

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - December 04, 2012 11:14 pm UTC

Bingo!

Posted By: Jay Stacey

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - December 05, 2012 12:07 am UTC

hmmm interesting.. so instead of poor craftsmanship, its just poor design from the american assembly plants. maybe if mistubishi still had more involvement then the motors would have stayed the same and less crank walk.

Posted By: Rob Cauduro

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - December 05, 2012 03:14 am UTC

Keep in mind they were designed years before casting which was years before even being machined . It's Mitsubishi

Posted By: Nigel Hap

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - December 05, 2012 03:49 am UTC

Any thoughts on a 2.3 Stroker? I'm exploring that option for my daily driver, with hks 264/264, fp68hta turbo, balance shafts removed, fidanza flywheel, arp studs and mls head gasket

Posted By: Bryan Lawrence

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - December 05, 2012 03:50 am UTC

Everything looks good to me except fidanza flywheel. Get the street light or something heavier. Coming from someone who has a DD with a fidanza, it's not the way to go.

Posted By: Nigel Hap

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - December 05, 2012 04:15 am UTC

Why do you say that?? I've been using one for the past year almost with no complaints..

Posted By: Bryan Lawrence

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - December 05, 2012 04:17 am UTC

Guess you are lucky. For me I don't like the fast RPM drops, and with my car it's really inconsistent, some days car catches at 1000 and slowly bring it down to 800, some times it goes straight to 500 and if I am really unlucky, it just stalls.

Posted By: Mike Eng

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - December 05, 2012 05:21 am UTC

sounds more like you're out of "tune"

fidanza v2 dd in the summer here and no complaints either. we want to go fast, not slow down slow.

Posted By: Jason Drew

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - December 05, 2012 05:41 am UTC

Aluminum flywheels are not ideal if you intend to track the car a lot, close back to back runs will eventually warp the surface as they can't dissipate the heat fast enough.

Posted By: Bryan Lawrence

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - December 05, 2012 12:19 pm UTC

Originally Posted by Mike Eng

sounds more like you're out of "tune"

LOL well I think it could also be my ISC, it may be sticky.

Posted By: Ryan Laliberte

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - December 05, 2012 02:58 pm UTC

I'm so tired of hearing that fukkin term. Every time people ask me about what kind of car it is the first thing they say is "Oh, well enjoy your crankwalk".

http://qkme.me/3s1xw2

Posted By: Andrew Trapp

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - December 05, 2012 04:32 pm UTC

No matter what, this picture always makes me laugh:

[Linked Image]

There is just something about "Walk crank walk"

or

[Linked Image]

Posted By: Ziggy Dietrich

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - December 05, 2012 04:39 pm UTC

Both very cute, LOL!

I think if we ever get a dog, we'll name him "Crank"

Posted By: Alex Akachinskiy

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - December 05, 2012 10:37 pm UTC

Originally Posted by Jay Stacey

hmmm interesting.. so instead of poor craftsmanship, its just poor design from the american assembly plants. maybe if mistubishi still had more involvement then the motors would have stayed the same and less crank walk.

I don't think I agree with poor design from the american assembly idea. There are similar cases for engine to fail when manufacture changes/redesign lubrication system. You probably heard about RX7 twin turbo rotary 13B Rev. What could be more hell than boosted motor running complex three dimensional seals? Still reliability was pretty good with those motors. So when the latest beast RX8 (Renesis) came on board, Mazda dropped turbos and claimed this NA motor will do 200,000 miles before rebuild. BTW only few "minor" changes in lubrication system.
[Linked Image]

And look what I did to RX8
[Linked Image]

Failure reasons? APEX seal running dry, compression lost. Starting 2008 and up they added third oil nozzle (between the two as in 13B Rev) and all problems went away.

How many crankwalk cases are outthere for mitsu? 20 - 30%? Almost every engine failed in early RX8.

As Rob stated above,

Quote

All it takes is a starvation of oil to the trust

Our engine didn't crankwalk because MITSU forgot to feed oil to thrust bearing. I would call it "design failure" if they did.
If Magnus is right than all takes is dirty/old engine oil to clog oil squirter and when they do they'll eat away all need oil pressure to feed thrust bearing at idle. Engine failure due to excess use of dirty oil is not design failure to me.

Still everyone talks about crankwalk like all Mitsu motors failed, that upsets me the most!

Posted By: Jay Stacey

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - December 05, 2012 11:18 pm UTC

what im saying is i read before that in 95 the motoers were biult in the us, and quality dropped for mass production and mass profit. wether it was substandard quality specs.... or lets completely remove the original sqirters and replace them with cheap poorly designed squirting check valves mounted in holes drilled into the easiest place to get an oil feed. Either way ive heard they same argument from both theories from several diferant dsm gods.

my theory....

when the motors were made in japan, like most other performace machines from japan, they were biult well and with thought. Then when they were biult in the US... well sorry but the US hasnt biult a quality performance car since the muscle car era. (which they cant seem to drop either.)

Posted By: Alex Akachinskiy

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - December 06, 2012 12:35 am UTC

Originally Posted by Jay Stacey

my theory....

when the motors were made in japan, like most other performace machines from japan, they were biult well and with thought. Then when they were biult in the US... well sorry but the US hasnt biult a quality performance car since the muscle car era. (which they cant seem to drop either.)

Your theory is accepted Jay

Posted By: Jason Drew

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - December 06, 2012 12:41 am UTC

It doesn't matter where they were made, every 2jz was built in Japan as far as I know, and looky at this:

Posted By: Alex Akachinskiy

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - December 06, 2012 01:09 am UTC

Originally Posted by Jason Drew

It doesn't matter where they were made, every 2jz was build in Japan

and so as RX7 and RX8

Posted By: Jay Stacey

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - December 06, 2012 02:04 am UTC

ya but those motors altho have limites and some faults are far superour then anything made by domestic motors. and i still think there better biult then 2g motor that could not handle some dirty oil

Posted By: Luke Decking

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - December 10, 2012 11:35 am UTC

Its one thing to say that factory assemblies or bad oil caused failure but honestly how many stock/ never tampered with motors failed assuming proper maintence was done?

People ruin motors with laziness.

Posted By: Bryan Lawrence

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - December 10, 2012 01:07 pm UTC

Alex takes really good care of his car (atleast from what I have seen) and he just found out that his car has walked. Just because someone gets a little lazy once a year and takes a little longer to do an oil change shouldn't make the engine fail.

Posted By: Jay Stacey

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - December 10, 2012 08:46 pm UTC

i been thinking... since i do brain dead work biulding headlamps for a domestic automotive supplier, and watch quality standards get thrown out the window all the time. something you wont see at toyota in cambridge.

and this is what i came up with.

the magnus motor in thier article was fully rebiult and biult.. which to means the block was cleaned very well. plus it prolly was running really good oil and filter. i dont believe dirty clogged sqirters killed that engine. but it was just a theory.. a thoery that saved magnus a tone of money.

when the 2g motors started being biult, they started suffering from cankwalk so bad that it became an epidemic.. a stereotype.. even more so then the dreaded timing belt issues dsms been haveing for years already. but you rarely hear about it anymore. it happens but not nearly as much as it did the first 10years the 2g was around. if it was the squirters clogging up. then it wuld still be happeneing alot and here wouldnt be many of these motors left. but there is.. dirty abused 2g 7bolts running around with no signs of crank walk.

amercan manufactures are known for slacking off on a friday or hiring careless emloyees willing to work for peanuts. if there were many motors biult with less car then the standards expected,, then eventually the shotty motors will eventually all destroy them selves leaving the well biult ones still running.

maybe raising the oil pressure on the crank fixed the out of spec standards who knows but the only real way to know is if we checked the motor before it walked but we would have to know its gonna walk before it does.

Posted By: Alex Akachinskiy

Re: 2g head 6 bolt block - December 10, 2012 09:16 pm UTC

Originally Posted by Bryan Lawrence

Alex takes really good care of his car (atleast from what I have seen) and he just found out that his car has walked. Just because someone gets a little lazy once a year and takes a little longer to do an oil change shouldn't make the engine fail.

I never cheated on oil changes (mobil 1 10w30) and I recall going over 5k couple times (when money was tight).
The day I got her i had slipping clutch and inconsistent engagement point. After I did clutch adjustment it got better so I never had to do anything about it again. Inconsistent engagement was always there but minor and didn't affect much of my driving. I suspect the motor was in this state since I got her