Need honest machine shop in GTA

Hey Guys, i have a 99 eclipse gst motor that i need built. It is currently out of the car and i should have all the parts. I just need someone to machine it and put it together.

I have the following:
Eagle steel crankshaft
Eagle forged connecting rods H beam
Wieseco 8:3:1 85.5mm (20 thou overbore) forged pitons
Wieseco Rings
Ferrea Titanium Valves 6000 series
HKS Titanium springs
Viton valve stem seals
Ferrera Valve locks
AEM true time cam gears
OBX underdrive pully, All other pullys lightweight also
Cometic multi layer performance head gasket
ARP studs

Can anyone recomend a decent shop that wont ask for my first born?

I live in Oakville but I am willing to go anywhere in the GTA within reason.

Thank you my fellow DSM'ers

http://www.bercoautomotive.com/

These guys are good and have been around for years. They have a huge machine shop and I know a lot of guys who had work done from there including myself.

Edit: on the bottom left corner you can take a tour of the shop and go through the pictures you get a idea of the shop.

Thanks Deep.

Gord busch is good he machined my 6 bolt and did an amazing job at it.

http://gordbushperformance.com/

Actually I'll add to this thread as well. I'm also looking at getting my 7 bolt done as well. Does anyone have experience with shops that have done 7 bolts before? (split thrust). One of the shops I'll be looking at is Rainbow Engines in Markham, I know they've done alot of 6 bolts just wasn't sure about 7's.

I'd like my squirters welded up when I do my build. Also want ARP main studs so need an align hone. Not sure what all machining is required but I'd want all the typical stuff, balanced rotating assembly, etc. Also thinking about O-ringing the block.

Tim, looks like a good build but I probably wouldn't run the OBX underdrive pullies. I'd recommend a good engine dampner like Fluidampr.

There are a few guys on here that continue to run a 7 bolt without issues, but if you're looking for a build up, why not start with a 6 bolt platform? The purpose of going with a built motor is for reliability and longevity. Why not take out one of the concerns (or lessen the concern) from the equation? The last thing you want to do is sink thousands into a block that MIGHT head down the same path as so many before it. Your choice though.

A poorly built 6-bolt (or even poorly tuned) can sh!t the bed just like any other motor, so I'm not saying that it's the be-all, end-all.

I thought about going 6 bolt but think I've switched back to sticking with 7 for a couple reasons. First because I'm anal & I don't want to run some guys junky 6 bolt parts on my car, so that means buying new or sourcing like new & probably still have them refinished. That, with additional 6 bolt specific parts will easily run me another $1500+ ontop of the build. 2nd, my motor should be the split thrust design. Most people I talk to say they worry more about the builder then 6 vs 7 bolt. Then if its the split thrust, worry even less. Aren't all/most strokers a 7 bolt, do they have all kinds of issues? What about Evo motors, their a 7 bolt, do you see their builds walking all the time?

Another big issue seems to be clutch itself, I won't be running a 2600+ PP, it'll be a 2200-2300lb.

Hey Thanks to everyone. I called Gord busch and he seems like a real honest guy. He said if i bring it in he will tell me how much upfront and stick to it. The place my motors at right now has had it for 3 months and are running up the bill. He said that my crank needed to be machined so i told him i would not pay more than $200. He said it will cost $270 so i said go ahead. After fixing it he is now saying he wants $350 for the crank. It is an Eagle forged crank but $%ck that. We agreed on $270 so that is my queue to get my motor out of there. He wanted $2500 for the build with me supplying the parts.

Lesson leared. Get that mofo in writting!

Thanks again Ruben. I will post pics when i am done IF it ever gets finished

$2500 & your supplying the parts? Right now I hear DSMer's everywhere having heart attacks

I thought about 6 bolt as well but then i would need to swap tranny etc. My 7 bolt tranny is brand new. I just bought it in 08 before i decided to build up the motor. That would be $3500 out the window I dont think i can sell it for more than $500. Also i thought the later 7 bolts with split bearings were less prone to crankwalk?

The 1999 7 bolt has a 4 piece Thrust bearing assembly that allows the thrust bearing to float and self align with the crankshaft. This type of bearing was carried over to the EVO IV and newer 4g63-t and 4g64 engines.

i think my bill for him was about 3 gran with out parts but was worth every penny.

You can still run your 7 bolt tranny with a 6 bolt bottom, just need to swap flywheels. If I built a 6 bottom, wasn't planning on ditching my TRE tranny & would keep the 7 bolt head/evoIII intake mani.

Yes, the revised split thrust was Mitsu's design to prevent CW. Don't think it completely eliminates it but it does seem to help vs previous gen 7 bolts. Again, alot has to do with the builder. If I go 7, I also plan on having the oil squirters welded shut. You don't need them with aftermarket pistons & that can help eliminate a possible cause of CW. Apparently they can fail in the open position (if you've seen a pic their much smaller then 6 bolt squirters), which causes them to continue to squirt when they aren't supposed to, like at low rpms, such as idle. This can take the oil supply away from the crank mains. So from what I've heard its a good idea to eliminate them.

Some before and after shots





















[img]http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn212/Dsm2nv/DSC00850.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn212/Dsm2nv/DSC00852.jpg[/img]

Daren, give me a call on welding the oil squiters up. i have a really good contact. Same guy Mark used for his turbo. quality work and knows what his doing.

The guy at Rainbow is really nice and is willing to work with me on my motor build so that is exactly what i want. Which includes working with my powder coated block:)

His also willing to show me all the values for clearances to ensure that its built to my specs. I'm anal in detials just like Daren and just don't drop my parts off and tell the guy i want a "race" motor built.

Wow great job. I am going to take my motor to him for sure.
Ok i got the breakdown of what they are wanting to charging me.

Disassemble engine and inspect 75
Disassemble second engine 100
Select parts for reuse and degrease 175
Repair on crankshaft 310
Balance assembly 175
Bore and hone cylinders 300
Machine Deck of block 100
Check main and rod clearance 100
Modify block to eliminate balance shafts 75
Resize pin holes for correct pin to piston clearance 75
Cut ring end gaps 50
Disassemble head and clean/check valves 400
Assemble complete engine 600

Parts:
Main bearings 40
Rod bearings 30
T/washers 12
Rings 78
New belt 26

For a grand total of $2721

I think i will be taking my business elsewhere

Also the crank he charged me $310 for looks like crap! Looks beat up to me.

Hopefully Gord can srt this out

I just got off the phone with Gord and read through all the items and he said that it SHOULD cost me about $1000-1200. Of course it is hard to say for sure without seeing it but its still a far cry from 2700!

Its interesting seeing what other people charge for engine builds and machine work Some machine shops are RIP offs.

I've been using the same guy in Markham for many years now, and never once had a problem with any builds, stock or built. Its nice seeing a lot of DSMers going to Rainbow now over the last few years after seeing my success with them . Actually my success comes from my tuning skills, not the machine shop. In fact rebuilding a 4g63 motor should be like riding a bicycle for any reputable engine shop. Easy engine to work with.

Machine work and engine building is not rocket science. I give my specs to Paul @ Rainbow, my engines come out perfect, I don't need to triple check everything, break em in and bang off 10's all day. A proper machine shop that builds engines all day long should have reasonable prices. I would never pay $400 for a complete head rebuild

Some people have just never had an engine built before, and get too complicated about it. Preparation before starting the motor and during assembly is KEY too.

What that guy said! I too have been using the same machinist, excellent work, will never go to another!

how can i ensure that i get the right parts back? Is there anything on an eagle crank to identify it from oem?

Better question, is there a reason why you are running an Eagle crank?

I believe the Eagle parts will have the bird on them. You could scribe some identification of your own as well.

Now I guess that doesn't help you much if the shop does the full assembly. If you don't want to trust them you will just have to go and watch them assemble it!

Hey Guys, thanks for all the help. I got everything back ok and I am taking it all to Gord Bush Performance. HOpefully i can get a much better quote. I would never deal with those guys again. It was originally at Mississauga Engines.

I know that I'm late into your post but Gord Bush is probably 1 of the 10 best machine shop in Canada.

Lot of reputable race team uses his services.

Keep us up to date.

Ghislain

Glad i could help im completely happy with his work and will deff go back if i ever decide to build another motor.

People from the other side of the planet bring their engines to Gord Bush.

No1 in my books. He built my 3SGTE motor and was very paitent with me while I got replacement parts when he found out some of my parts were missing and some no good

Got my quote from Gord. $1400 parts included. Thumbs up!! Great guy, really honest and straight up.

Sounds a lot better than $2500. and you supply parts

Yeah guys, what size injectors would you recommend with this build? I am running it with a t3/t4 turbo.

^^^
The turbo doesn't matter so much as: How much horsepower do you want to make and how are you going to control the injectors?

I am aiming for about 400 whp. For now i have a greedy e-manage which i know i whould probably upgrade. I also have a B.E.G.I. Rising Rate Fuel Pressure Regulator which have not yet decided if i am going to use. It is supposed to raise the fuel levels under higher boost. I will probably still need a manual fuel regulator.

The stock fuel pressure regulator is rising rate, 1:1 ratio. When you upgrade it you just need to stay with 1:1. The key is that it is large enough, then it doesn't mess with your tuning by being inconsistent.

I think the e-Manage is a piggy-back controller (used in conjunction with the stock ECU)? Normally with piggy-backs you are limited to around 650cc injectors. "Pulling out" a lot of fuel to compensate for large injectors makes tuning diffuclt.
However, e-Manage might get around that by talking directly to the ignition and/or injectors.

For 400 WHP you might be looking at 1000cc injectors.

So if e-Manage can't handle that size, you'll need to switch to ECMLink or a full standalone.

Hey Tim,

If you need another option there's Howie at R&B automotive on wyecroft, he's built talon's before and his prices are pretty fair, give him a call

IF you have an EPROM ECU, a custom chip and a used AFC is a cheap way to do it...

Oh yeah I should have mentioned the chip option
Especially since it's what I use!

Back up the Truck; Do you know for sure what "rate" your BEGI Gizmo in raising fuel pressure??? Like Rob said it should raise the Fuel Pressure 1 psi per psi of Boost. Some Yo-Hip b.s. "Fuel Pressure Regulator will raise it as much as 11:1. Some are also comnonly known as FMU or secondary Fuel Pressure Regulator. That crap is old school and was never proven to work well with modern ECUs.

E-Manage should be a decent platform to Tune with but might limit you to a certain size Injectors.

All in all; making power out of a 4G63 is very well documented and we tend to use certain "wayz" as they yeild decent, consistent results.

Sell you E-Manage and that "unknown" FPR, use the money for a Peckerhead Chip, a SAFC or DSMLink.

Hope this helps.

Ghislain

shoot, i had a safc and sold it to get the e-manage. I thought emanage was better as safc only does fuel, it will not do timing. From what i understand the biggest difference here is that the e-manage lets you modify ignition timing completely independent of your fuel map

Tim, if e-manage gives you timing control then it should happen to correct the big injector problem I mentioned above. Pulling out a lot of fuel on a piggy-back can land you in a far too aggressive timing cell. But, it sounds like you can compensate for that (or like I mentioned, perhaps e-manage talks directly to the injectors too and then it's a moot point).

Why not see where the e-manage can take you first?

UPdate:

I got my motor back from Gord and he was awesome. He stuck with the price even though i added stuff along the way.

Here are some pics:

From gord
http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae56/stylinleo/tim1.jpg
http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae56/stylinleo/tim2.jpghttp://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae56/stylinleo/tim3.jpg

Starting to get it back together
http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae56/stylinleo/IMG_1259.jpg
http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae56/stylinleo/IMG_1261-Copy.jpg

New turbo i picked up:)
http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae56/stylinleo/IMG00049-20110416-1941.jpg

Rob, i took your advice and sold the Greddy Emanage and was able to get a sweet deal on a dsmlink. It was only v2 but it will get me going for now.

Hoping to drop in the motor tomorrow if the weather holds up.

Holy, your turbo sure sits low with that v-band adapter plate. Any idea how its going to fit ?

What cams, and did you assemble the motor and degree them yourself ?

Hey Reza, i have no idea how low it will sit. I will figure that out this weekend once its in the car. (hopefully tomorrow if weather holds)

I have a set of 272 regrinds that i picked up. Gord checked them and said they were good to use. He also assembled the motor and set the degree for me. I have HKS adjustable gears.

Man i hope that turbo fits...now you got me worried

Looking good!
You might need to grind away some of the crossmember to fit the oil return.

I was already running a t3 turbo so I am hoping it all still bolts up. My old t3 was considerably smaller though but i had all the lines run already.

Hopefully i will have it in the car tomorrow so i have a better idea of what i need. I will need to have my exhaust welded as my old turbo had a 2.5 inch flange and this one is 3inch.

Just looked at the pic of your adjustable cam gears, wow looks like their both getting close to the max adjustment. What turbo is that?

Hey Darren that is the Garrett GT3076R Dual ball bearing, twin scroll T3/T4 hybrid. 60mm w/84 trim (Cold side) matched with Tial 3603 turbine housing. The exhaust housings pretty small so it is supposed to spool up pretty quick and rated for over 525 hp.

I got it for a deal i couldnt turn down. I wasnt shopping for it but came across it at a decent price so now i will have to figure out how to make it work. I have a couple of t4 headers. One of them it hits the block but this one we were able to get it in. I will have to see how much space i have with the rad and fans but as i said i was already running a t4 so should be able to bolt it all up. The vbands bigger so need to find a welder to hook back up the exhaust.

Lol, it sounds like you have way to many numbers in that turbo description. Are you sure you know what you have?

I'm thinking what you have is a GT3076R (aka GT30R, aka 3076) with a Tial turbine housing (maybe 3603 is tials part # for that specific housing?). 60mm / 84 trim are the specs for the turbine wheel (or hotside) of a GT3076.

If you do infact have a 3076, thats a great turbo for your car & what I'm running. If the Tial housing doesn't work (fitmant or bad size for your goals (A/R)), you can always swap turbine housings. Forced Performance has a great bolt on DSM housing (works great with their cast DSM mani), that would be a great match. This is what I run on my car.

i feel better knowing someone thats running it. I was concerned it would be too big. you are right the 3606 is the tial part number for the exhaust side and the turbo is the GT30R.

To be honest i wasnt sure what i have as i just got it this week. I had to look it up

As for fitting i will have to get my exhaust rewelded as my vclamp is currently 2.5 (on exhaust) but my new exhaust housing has a 3 inch flange. My exhaust is 3 in up to about 6-8 inches from the exhaust housing where i had to reduce it to 2.5 for my old turbo.

Do you happen to know the AR of the Tial housing you have? Try the Tial housing first & see how it fits once its in your engine bay. If its a no go I would recommend this setup:

Exhaust mani:
http://store.forcedperformance.net/...e=EMFPRace&Category_Code=DSM-Exhaust
Turbine housing:
http://store.forcedperformance.net/...ode=THFP30&Category_Code=Turbo-Parts

To make that work you need a Tail V44 or the new Tial MV-R. You will also need a Vband O2 housing,such as this:

http://store.forcedperformance.net/...e=O2FP3025&Category_Code=DSM-Exhaust

Basically when you bolt on the FP turbine housing to a 3076R turbo you get what FP calls a 3052 (the way I bought mine):

http://store.forcedperformance.net/...e=NTDSMFP3052&Category_Code=Turbo-FP

If you don't know, its a bolt on turbo that will have similar flow to a T3 .63 A/R housing. The turbo is rated at 52lb/min (or 520 crank hp) but it will defently make more power then that with the right setup. I flow 48lb/min on my street tune, 26psi & 50lb/min @ 28psi. This is with an evoIII intake mani & FP1X cams. I'm looking to see 55lb/min with the new setup.

I would recommend this turbo 100% for a daily street turbo as well. I liked it much better then the evoIII I use to have when my car was fwd. I see 20psi @ 4000 rpms. Defently not what I would call a laggy turbo.

Edit: you'll also want to feed that turbo from the head & run a restrictor with inline filter as well. I'd run this filter:

http://store.forcedperformance.net/...P4ANFilter&Category_Code=DSM-TurboHW

You want the black one. This will give you the proper oil pressure/flow & filter the supply (must do with a BB turbo)

Yea it looks like the exhaust cam is almost fully retarded. If thats how they line up after degreeing, then it should be fine.

To sum up Daren's posts above you should have just gotten a REAL Forced Performance turbo

Its still a nice turbo you have, and I really like the way those Tial housings look

Wow, you just added to my shopping list. Looks like May 1st is out of the question now

Great info. This looks like it...

Tial GT-35r with the cast SS exhaust housing. The exhaust is .86 ratio from what i am reading.

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1845305
or
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/487588-quick-spool-turbo.html

just went out to take a look. That is 100 % it.

Garret GT3076R with a Tial GT-35r.

I don't really know anything about the Tial housings, not sure if their built like a typical T3, T4, etc or their probably their own custom design, with different volutes, so the A/R cannot be directly compared to say a T3 (or the FP housing). If it is similar to these, that housing will probably be abit more laggy with more top end power potential.

Hey Darren, i have a question regarding the oil inline with the restrictor. I already purchased this:

https://www.rtmracing.com/xcart/product.php?productid=17380&cat=1392&page=1

Would you still recomend the forged performance one? I guess the benefit there is with the filtering

Did you get the head feed one? This turbo needs to be fed from the head, not OFH. Personally would I runn a BB turbo without a filter? Absolutly not, while BB turbos are said to be more durable & take more abuse then a std thrust turbo, they do not take well to oil contamination. Normally you shouldn't see anything in your turbo feed filter but if something strange happens & you have no filter to protect your turbo, you will probably damage the turbo. Which means a complete center section replacement, not sure the going rate but believe its over $500.