Grinding Starter

Problem started out of the blue about a week ago. Car still started, but would grind with the starter engaged.
After a couple days, I also noticed I was feeling pulsations in the clutch while cranking.

That starter stopped engaging on Thursday, so I was forced to swap in a new one. Did everything I could to line it up, and it still grinded like a mofo.

So, I spent many hours last night trying to align the starter properly and regardless of how I do this, it still grinds.
I have the correct starter plate for my tranny, but there's a little give left and right.

No teeth are missing from the flywheel. Some are a little chewed up, but the general shape is still there. Nothing out of whack, just wear marks.
I checked the old starters gear, and they were all chewed up. The new starter has about 20 starts on it, and the gears are still fine.

Ideas?

If it sounds like this, http://www.zshare.net/audio/989031123b5e6900/ I'm having the same issues and am probably going to pull the motor to find out. so I will keep you posted, hope the audio works

Auto starter in a MT (or vice-versa)?

Loose or missing bellhousing bolts?

Also maybe the flywheel somehow isn't seated properly.

The starter is correct, and the starter plate has been drilled to line up with the MT AWD starter.

I'm starting to think it might also be the flywheel. Maybe a bolt let out a bit. Had a buddy crank the engine last night while I was watching the flywheel through the inspection port, and it appeared to be pretty straight.....

Oh well. I'm going to fiddle with it a little more tonight, ensure the bellhousing is tight against the block. Just did a visual on the bolts last night, they're all still there.

Possibly (hopefully not) buy a new flywheel + clutch from Ziggy tomorrow if thats what it comes too...

and yes, thats exactly what it sounds like... I even have the belt squeel!! haha

I wonder does anyone know if this could be a result of a warped flywheel or cracked one? Mine started to make this noise all of a sudden too about 2 days ago, I have begun to pull the motor slowly as I am doing it in my driveway

Agh... I really hope not. It was all the sudden. My car used to have to crank, it was 1/2 start and then stop. Then I'd have to crank it again and vroom it would go.
Just last week when i did the second crank it started grinding. And every one is worse then the last.. :S

Sorry to make you repeat yourself, I read it too fast.

How easily does the crank turn by hand before you start it?

Update... Just tested the starter I took out last week and it's fully functional.... The gear on it has a little bit of play, but aside from that, it works perfectly fine.
I'm just waiting for the car to cool down and then I'll pull the other starter and see what it's doing.
Regardless, it isn't even catching the flywheel anymore so it looks like I'll be renting a car for a couple days...

No worries. It turns as it should. You can tell when the valves open because it pushes through, and then it's more difficult when you're compressing. But it's smooth. Once the car is up and running it sounds like it always has. Clutch response is normal, and the flywheel is still very much secure against the crank. There isn't any play when force was applied via the inspection port.

Where is you starter from? I ask because I have had many many starters that are rebuilt from different parts suppliers that possible were rebuilt wrong that grind as much as the old one i just took out.

Did you bench test with a piece of wood against the gear to load it?

I have a Napa rebuilt one and a Champion one.

And crap.... I didn't think to do that. I'll give it another shot tonight and see what happens.

Ryan, when you say against the gear, do you mean pushing against it, or trying to hold from pushing forward to engage the flywheel?

Hold it against the gear the solenoid should be able to push the gear and move the wood and fully engauge. Chances are you have to starters that were rebuilt in the same place. I have had nothing but problems with Napa starters. I could recommend a great rebuilder if you don't mind the drive to Kitchener. It might be a bendix drive i am not sure about 2g's 1g's use a solenoid.

Yeah, you shouldn't be able to stop the gear with the wood. The gear should chip it away and no metal grinding noises like you hear in the car.

2G uses a solenoid.

Well, I'm not going to pull the one out of the car again until Saturday. I suppose I could test the other one tonight if I can find a battery.
Thanks ROB and Stephen for the input. (not sure where i for ryan from before......)

I tried this and my starter just chewed up the wood, I am hoping I don't have to drop the transmission, but will be this weekend if necessary lol

Can you take any pics of the flywheel teeth?

I will try if it stops raining, or will get some when I drop the transmission, I was in there changing the clutch. About 3 months ago and everything seemed good, but will try to get pic's today

Brendan you say it chewed the wood. But did push the wood and fully engauge?

I'll be sure to put up some pictures tomorrow and test out those starters.
Dropping the tranny at work and swapping in a new flywheel and clutch.
Brendan, let me know about your progress or if you need a hand. I might be able to help you out, just make it a sunny day. haha

I am not sure I know what you mean I stood on the starter and I had a friend stand on the wood either moved it just ground away at the wood

Oh usually you do it in a vise so you can see it. the motor may be spinning but the solenoid may not be pushing the gear out far enough.

Both starters are in perfect working condition.
As for the culprit, a "drilled" FWD starter plate!!!! I'll post pictures once I'm home tomorrow. The previous owner... wow... what a guy. Oh, and I also recovered a pair of pliers from behind a cross member
Also, since when did crappy tire close at 7 on Saturdays?! Sigh... Sleep at work, crappy tire in the morning for some missing parts, and then finish the job hopefully before noon.

Oh... if any of you have ever broke an alternator tensioner bracket bolt you'll be happy to know the hole in the waterpump can be instantly tapped with any M10 thread you desire I suppose that was a plus of today, and damn that new clutch/flywheel looks good

Good to hear yours was a easy fix, mine isn't going without a fight. I. I dropped my transmission found a bunch of metal filings and chewed flywheel teeth so I swapped the flywheel checked my backing plate to be sure I didn't have a fwd one, and reinstalled everything along with a new clutch since I had it open. Went to start and it is making the exact same noise and not starting, the only thing I found that was off was the starter could pivot a mm or two, but no matter where I positioned it it makes the noise, I have another 2g here that I am dropping the transmission in and tried the starter from it, but it has the same grinding sound, I am at a loss, I am sure the flywheel is good and don't think both starters would make the same noise. I am going to try poviting it into different positions To see if I can make the sound go away, any ideas would be great

Can you turn your engine by hand? Might be siezed engine.

Yes I can turn the motor by hand, if I bump start it car runs great, would a weak starter have trouble turning a higher compression motor? I have Ross 10:1 compression pistons, the only other thing is the pivot play on the starter if it were 2 mm high it might be skipping on the flywheel, going to play with it tomorrow and see if I can get it working without the noise. I have another 2g here so goin to try the starters in there to be sue that work

A weak starter could have trouble also a weak battery or poor ground. Do you know how to do voltage drop test? 10:1 ratio shouldn't be an issue lots of engines run that or higher N/t's of course. I am more concerned about the play you have the starter bolts in horizontialy the only thing that lines it up is the nose of the starter and tranny case. Maybe the case is worn cause you say a different starter from a diff car did the same thing.

Brendan:
Are you sure you have the right starter plate? Mine was a FWD drilled to fit the starter on my AWD, but the angle was off as well as the position.
MD167356 - 2G AWD. It will be punched into the outside face of the plate.
MD194962 - 2G FWD

When I put my new plate up, the starter lined up perfectly. No play L or R. Also started up and engaged perfectly. There was no need to adjust it once installed and torqued.
The starter has a little lip on it that should fit perfectly into the precut hole.

Let me know how you're doing.

hmmm... is your tranny a 2G AWD or a 1G AWD?

also.... did you test the starters as stated above? With the battery, jumper cables, and a piece of wood?

2g and never noticed a stamping on the spacer plate, I am going to mess around a bit tomorrow and see what I find

make sure you do have the right plate, because thats what screwed me...
The FWD plate is positioned to accommodate the larger flywheel. It will work for the AWD, but only for so long as it will rip the tips of the teeth off.
My oh my does it sounds sweet when it starts now

If in doubt, those spacer plates are not that expensive new.
https://www.rtmracing.com/xcart/product.php?productid=17143&cat=307&page=1

Ziggy I know, but I am broke atm so trying to get it together you will be hearing from me soon. I assume you can't get it out till monday anyways though.
As this is what I found when I took a pic, I am sure this is the culprit, and one else agree before I drop the tranny for the second day in a row.

Just thinking about it this maybe the 6 bolt 1g starter plate, when it should have the 2g one to mach my tranny. I never did the 6 bolt swap so I am not sure.

I would have to agree that plate doesn't seem to line up well at all. Probably keeping the starter to high above the flywheel.

its confirmed that I have a 1g awd backing plate, going to order the plate this weekend

Nice! Problem solved!

DINGDINGDING!!! Theres your problem. Same issue as mine, but the previous owner had the "smarts" to drill another hole in the plate... bah.
I'm surprised you even got the top bold through...

Swapping it out will solve all your issues. Happy tranny dropping

Appears that my starter solenoid is crapping out. Looks like another swap is in the works.
You can hear it spinning but not engaging. bah.

I have 3 good solenoids if you need one lol.
My starter just took a crap again, I have 2 that the casing seems to have broken around the end bearing making the gear sloppy has hell and unable to keep pressure against the flywheel. I have only put in used starters, as I am afraid of buying a new one and the same thing happening. My car also seems to turn over pretty slow almost as if there is something drawing the battery power, but I have no shorts. Plus my car won't start anyways right now do to my other CAS issue
Does anyone know if the n/t starters put out more torque? or another high torque starter option, cause it maybe my compression 10:1. If I plug the plugs is seems to turn over perfect, then as soon as the compression is in the cylinder it has trouble turning the motor.

Thanks anyway BW. I picked up another one and finally it starts like a dream. I always wondered why it sounded like sh!t when my car cranked. lol
It would only make sense that it's the higher compression.
When you say it doesn't start right away, do you crank, get a fire or 2, then have to crank again? If so, I've been doing that for years.

and 10:1!? holy high