Lumpy idle off start

Drove the car hard on Saturday then after the car sat I drove from my cousin's place in Orangeville down to Jane/Eglinton, dropped off the kids, then there was this really strong fuel smell in the cockpit.

I thought I was low on fuel so I put in some gas, started the car, and she struggled and put putted, but was good after a little bit.

Johnny L. told me to check the fuel lines under the hood and injector seals. I haven't had a chance just yet, but I have no idea what I'd be looking for either.

Just thought I'd toss this out there and get people's thoughts and insight.

If anyone could drop by on their way home or something that would be greatly appreciated as well.

I live at Yonge/Finch on Finch. If you've seen the black TSI on the north side parked during the day, that's me.

I am with Johnny, I would check seals on the car. For me I smell fuel all the time. But supposedly that has to do with my upgraded lines and doesn't effect my performance.

What are your air fuel ratios looking like and your trims? If something is leaking you should be able to tell from those two. Also check your duty cycle.

sounds like your filter is starting to clog.

10 minute job and cheap too!

Filter is new, well has maybe 3k on it now.

How would I go about checking the seals?

I'll hop onto Google and do some searching.

Does the pump for you guys turn on with the key on? or does the car need to be on?

I think it's when the car is cranking, not with the key in the on position.

You Fuel pump should cycle for 2 sec when the first turned on your cel will also illuminate for 2 sec thes is it bulb check.

You can verify by listening to your MPI relay it will click when you cycle the key to ON and click off in 2 sec at the sametime the CEL goes out.

Ok well I would just turn the car on and then check where all the seals are or you can hotwire the pump and check that way.

I wish there were something like remote desktop for this. LOL

I'll check tonight.

hahaha, yeah that would be amazing! k let us know, hot wiring would probably be the best cause it will keep the pressure in the system and allow you to hear and see what is leaking.

I would definitely do a visual check for leaks. Wipe around with a cloth and see if you find any fuel.

Or maybe just wave a lighter around until you find it

You might also start / stop the car and see if the spark plug tips are wet. I'm wondering if you've got an injector stuck open?

Will do.

Don't joke about things like your second suggestion, I would probably go and do it. LOL

So dumb lately.

Don't give the engineers anymore more silly idea's to put into cars.

Hahaha, very true. They might just think of something like this.

Well they already have the Android apps for the Chevys, I think it was, and OnStar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZwopj9_Y4o

He makes it look so easy.

yep that app is for remote start and monitoring. it's a pretty damn good idea too if you ask me.

check the top of your intake mani for a pool of fuel, maybe a seal for the injector from the rail let go. happened to me earlier this summer.

like tucan sam would say, FOLLOW YOUR NOSE

you'll find that problem

From Jafromobile on Youtube.

"I'd bet on a vacuum leak over injector seals. Unless you've already isolated the problem to the injector seals doing a boost leak test, confirm what's leaking with a boost leak test. There's a lot of different stuff that can cause what you describe, but most all of it will involve some form of an intake leak or an ignition problem."

Maybe you got bad plugs/wires and smell unburt fuel from the lack of fire.

Check to see all your plug wires work. Unplug one at a time while motor runs. If there is no change while you pull one of them, then bingo

Will do.

I should hear a big change if I pull a damn wire while it's running no?

I'd assume so.

And the one that doesn't change is your misfiring cylinder

+1 on a vacuum leak, also check around your evap canister/return line if you have a evap canister.




My 2g does NOT prime the fuel pump until I actually crank the engine, this is normal on MOST cars like my Civic but I think Mitsu did this on purpose as some sort of 'safety' precaution.

Terry could be right. I would have to see the wiring diagram, I only have a 97 spyder diagram and they use a seperate MPI relay and fuel pump relay.

I don't know what kinda safety precaution it is, priming the fuel pump actually helps with cold starts. Maybe because the Spyder is american they wire it different.

But Mike if you jump the relay you can the run pump till you blue in the face or your battery dies.


I don't know about a vacuum leak usually they cause higher idle not misfires.

What kinda tuning logging setup do you have Mike?

UNTIL you snap the bracket trying to get the top banjo bold off because it hasn't moved in 15 years. lol

I'm not sure the 2Gs do this... I know my Cavalier did but I recall doing some serious research a while back for reasons that I can't recall. The pump is activated by something else that is only getting a signal when the engine is spinning I'm pretty sure. Can't recall what though.

Michael, didn't you tell me your wires and plugs were new? Or am I mixing you up with someone else?

I stand corrected. The 1g's don't prime aswell. They do the 2 sec bulb check, but no fuel pump prime. Funny how your learn things sometimes I Ass-umed because it bulb checked it primed. Too many years working on Honda where sh!t makes sense i guess. Sorry to mislead you Michael.

if you have link, you can just turn the bitch on

sorry, i know that isn't contributing.

have you checked the coil, wires, plugs, or the injectors and seals yet?

i'm tempted to call BS on this thread and you're just using this an excuse NOT to get your but kicked at karting tomorrow.

No worries guys.

So I didn't pull the wires while the car was running, I chickened out.

I did check around the injectors and fuel rail, found nothing. Didn't even smell. I pulled each wire though, and the one closest to the timing belt smelled a little like fuel not sure, just a stronger smell than the other before it, but no fuel in the spark plug well.

I put it back and checked the back seat, and it smelled really strong there, so I thought it was leaking there, but why the heck would it be there? Well it wasn't, but the bottom of the seat where the foam is had a dark spot where the fuel pump is.

I dunno what's going on, but now the car's fine.

I started her up and checked around, no leaks that I could see so I thought I'd go for a test drive and put in some more gas.

No smell in the cockpit and car runs "normal".

Weird.

Side note: I decided while I was out there I'd check my last clutch pedal adjustment job. Well I messed up and I probably did a lot of damage to my flywheel and wore out my clutch.

I adjusted it properly, slave cylinder couldn't be pushed in, so I fixed that and now she engages first gear without shaking the whole car.

Lesson learned.

As for the fuel smell the other day...any ideas?

Maybe letting her cool down "fixed" whatever it was?

LOL nope.

Worst thing is you'll just get a little zap. Just a little tickle.

About smelling it around the rear of the car, I might be wrong here, but Isn't the tank/fuel system vented under the car near the fuel pump/that area?

It's not just a smell, remember the car was idling all lumpy as if she was about to die.

Maybe I was just super low on fuel? Aiya, I dunno, I'm just going to keep my fingers crossed and keep the fuel topped up.

ohhh on the subject of fuel or BAD fuel, a couple of weeks ago at work, a customer brought in their new TL and it had half a tank of water, dirt and some gas...they had filled up at a DRUMMONDS on PERTH ST. in RICHMOND. ya, you heard that right. stay the frack away from OLD gas stations..and this was their premium grade fuel.

IT WAS A MESS!!!

Wow... Thats terrible!

what's really terrible is that the gas station wouldn't take responsibility for it. the tech took samples using clear empty water bottles and pictures of the tank and the pump, the filter, injectors, and the gas station still didn't want to admit to it. they got maybe 10 minutes away from the station before having to be towed into our lot.

cost the customers thousands (can't say) to fix the problem.

SO, the fuel smell is still there.

I'll poke around some more, but the car feels fine.

Start up is taking a wee bit longer than it normally does.

This weekend's supposed to be decent in terms of weather so I was thinking I'd take care of a bunch of stuff if I can borrow my buddy's jack and stands.

Fingers crossed. Newbie's gotta get dirty sooner or later right?

First things first. Remove rear seat, take the four screws out of the sending unit cover, get a flash light and your nose around that area with the car running. Check to see your hard lines out of the unit arent sweating from pin holes due to corrosion. Check to see the air lines arent hard and crusty.

Thanks Rob I'll do that.

With my luck there's probably a squirrel stuck in there trying to get out. lol

+1 on what rob mentioned.

You have no visible leaks, i checked under your car and the firewall, filter, rail..so next step is definitely to pop the lid on your sending unit and inspect those lines.

Mind you, it was a night when i looked at it. Loool

+1

Problem found! It's just as you said Rob.

Thing is it's really bad. My back seats foam was soaked in fuel and it was leaking out.

I opened the cover and the top is flooded and fuel is leaking out even with the car off. The solid line is "peeing" fuel out.

So now what?

How is the sending unit?
Next step, replace the lines!

No idea, there's just a lot of crap on top.

I'll snap a picture.

Replace the lines? Sounds like a bitch x1000

Well, you clearly have to get under the car, but it's not overly difficult. It's just a line

https://www.rtmracing.com/xcart/home.php?cat=1016

Good news kinda.

It's not the line itself, it's the "pipe" coming right out of the sending unit itself that has a pinhole in it.

So I guess all I need is a new sending unit.

Having trouble unplugging the "black" plug, white one came off, but the black one for the cover is being stubborn. Tips?

I got the damn plug off! Jesus that was tough. *continue laughing at the new*

I'm going to attempt to replace the sending unit myself once I get one.

*deep breath*

I'm seriously dizzy off the fumes jeez.

So I cranked the car for a good minute after removing the black and white plugs to empty out the lines, but the leaky line is still peeing fuel out. I guess it'll stop eventually.

I'll check back in an hour.

glad you figured this out mike

i'd try finding the unit and good luck cracking those flare nuts. they're a pita!!!!

Start soaking that flare nut NOW, and as often as you can until you find a replacement, go out and spray it with WD-40.

It wouldnt hurt to soak the little M5 nuts holding the unit to the tank either.

2G AWD models came with plastic ring to keep the assembly in place. M5 nuts used for FWD sending unit.




Michael, you can follow this guide on how to remove your sending unit.
http://www.vfaq.com/mods/pump-WB-2GAWD.html

Thanks guys, I'll get spraying tonight. I bought some stuff from CT a little while ago.

Definitely soak them nuts

Funny story, earlier this summer i did my fuel pump and to crack that nut loose, i was reeming on it so hard, when it cracked, my fist came all the way up to my cheek..kind of felt like chuck lidelle gave me a little super man wake up slap LOOL

Its a crammed area to work in, so that doesn't help either

Right! Thought he was fwd for some reason, my bad

Any idea what size crow's foot is needed for the line at the top of the sending unit?

Crows foot? Are you talking about small channel locks?

Crow foot is a wrench end that you can put on an extention or ratchet. Why Not just get a line wrench Michael?

awww I see! huh, never knew.

edit: forgot my shift key lol

Again I'm the dumb blonde. This is the tool I was asked to have on hand for when help arrives tomorrow.

So I tried taking it off.

Stupid question, which way do I turn? Since I'm taking the nut off the line at the top of the sending unit I'm turning counter clockwise no?

I was bending the piping coming off the sending unit itself so I stopped for now and sprayed penetrating fluid for now.

Not too concerned about damaging the sending unit in the car now, since I'll be replacing it.

Just twist her off. It will much easier to get off then. But yes you are turning the right way the nut is just siezed on the line.

The 2G swivel point is under the car IIRC, not at the sending unit.

That's the "punch yourself in the face nut" becareful cracking it loose.

Mek sure you dont smoke while attempting to loosen the bottom fitting lol.

That what I heard which is why I said frack it and cut the the neck off and did -6 to the rail.

On that note, I wish all of our lines were ran through the body..like suburu's.

Mike, how you making out? I ALMOST made this weekend a tdot trip but found what I was looking for locally

Well if you upgraded the lines you could run it though the cabin if you like.

Only use teflon coated lines if you're going to do it that way, or your cabin will always smell like fuel.

I got it out of the car just now! Only thing is I wonder how I'm going to get the hard line back onto the sending unit?


I had to twist and hold it with a clamp then keep twisting, so to put it back on without having the line twisted, I either have to get under the car and take it off there, then put it back on or twist it a bunch and hope to get it on straight.

I'm confused.

If you have any plans to upgrade the fuel filter now would be a good time, then you can just run new lines with an fittings.

The filter on a 2g is on the firewall, under the battery. Not sure if you want to go there just yet but Mike, can you snap a pic of what you're dealing with. Text it to me.

It's just the line, I have to twist the hell out of it to get it back on properly without getting under the car.

I don't have a jack at the moment, so no going under the car.

My plan is to do just that, get all the lines on and then call CAA to get some gas and a boost since my battery is dead and hopefully she's up and running today.

You going to have a hardtime guessing how much you have to twist it to get her back on straight. didn't your car come with a jack? get her as high as you can and put something under the tire.

There's a jack in your avatar silly!! Use that one

Whoops!! My bad Michael. I got those mixed up. Here's a question that I never thought of. Is it possible to switch that line so the swivel is at the sending unit?? I just twisted my line until it came off because I assumed that mine was seized due to the condition. I just retwisted mine and then carefully lined it back up. I managed to get it tit and straight again. Lucky I guess.

Yeah I twisted the sh!t out of the line, but couldn't twist it enough to get it on completely, but it's on.

I'm thinking I'm going to have to jack it up and do it right. Can't be "twistable" but completely tightly on no?

Of course dummy.




So yeah, gonna borrow a jack from someone.

The Jack in the picture broke.

Good question...can you reverse the line so the swivel is at the top?

If anyone can lend me their Jack tomorrow for maybe 20mins or so to take off the fuel line at the bottom of the car please let me know.

It shouldn't take long. Sending unit is already in the car.

Thank you.

Hey Micheal not trying to be a dick but a 2 ton floor jack is pretty cheap to buy If you are planning on fixing your own car that is something you should invest in and a few necessary tools. Again not trying to be a dick I would gladly lend you my jack and stands and any other tool that I have if you were closer.

Had one, lent it to someone and it broke.

My buddy has one, but he couldn't drop by in time and is out of town now.

I may have to bus it over to CT and pick one up, but wanted to get a better one than I had last time so it doesn't crap out as quickly.

No offense taken.

Edit: none on sale at the moment either

Lmao its still there if you want to try it, but the cast knuckle snapped into a few pieces lol. I would bring you one, but still don't have a licence. Hell I would've came and fixed your car along time ago if I had my licence...
It is ct brand though, maybe it has lifetime warranty, I will try next time I go and let you know if you have a new one or not

Also if I would have seen this sooner, for some reason in 2g's, the tank pressure will push gas out if there is a hole or bad connection. You need to undo the gas cap to release any and all pressure, before cracking anylines. If you just twisted the line till it came off order a new one.

LOL no worries Brendan, let me know if it works out at CT.

I did just twist the line until it came off. I need a new what?

Finally got the line back on the other day, was so cold.

Anyhoo' instead of starting a new thread I thought I'd just ask here.

So all I need now is gas and a battery charge.

3 months sitting, so how long of a drive do you guys think it'll take before it's good to turn off so I can get it back on again?

Mike, most guys will tell you to charge your battery over night unless you want to replace your alt because it's being over run. At least that is what I was told when my batter was dead.

Best to trickle charge her overnight. Not only is a dead battery very hard on an Alt but you would need to drive to Mike Eng's and back before it was charged.

Thanks guys, will do

Check CTC they have a small battery charger/maintaner onsale now. Sounds like something you need.

Just buy a new battery if you think yours is wangy.

Car was sitting for 3 months that's why the battery died.

Hoping it's okay once I charge it. Only been 3 months so should be good no?

Also, I have a replacement warranty still good at CT so I'll just swap it if it's bad.

3 months of sitting shouldn't kill it (but who knows with those crappy T batteries). A good long low-current trickle charge should have it good as new.

Oh I was gonna shoot it up with a 15A shot. I got the charger with a low 2A option and the 15A option.

Even a trickle charger running on its higher settings can boil a tired battery. I would sit it at 2A.

Ooo', copy that, thanks

the slower the charge the deeper the charge

"the slower, the deeper"..I'll keep that in mind

You don't want to overheat or over excite the electrolite. Lower amps= less heat.

Was going to do it right now, but the car is sitting in the driveway, and it's dipping down to -10 tonight.

Question is, is there an operating temperature for these types of chargers or am I good to just leave it under the hood of the car and leave it charging overnight or just until midnight then take it off and charge some more tomorrow?

Or just start it up after 6 hours ish at 2amps?

I have left them out allnight many times in the winter. Aslong as it is an autocharger you can leave it on all night.

Instructions say never to charge a frozen battery. WTF it's winter!

Thanks Steve

Oh yeah dont charge the battery if it is frozen. Bring it inside and let it defrost

How on earth do I know if it's frozen?

It's been sitting outside and it's been in the negatives all day.

Forget about it. Seems too cold. Don't wanna risk it blowing up. I'll wait until the weekend, it's supposed to be warmer.

Well Einstein, it's probably frozen

Usually you can see frost accumulate on the outside of the battery casing. And if it's swelling, good sign it's frozen too.

Does the battery have vent caps. If it does pop em off and look to see if there is ice. A battery will only freeze if it completely dead. The electrolite wont freeze but if it is water it will

It's frozen...damn.

Side is bulging.

Going to see if I can take it in for replacement sometime over the weekend at CT. Now to find the receipt.

How'd you know Einstein was my middle name!?

Yeah best to let it defrost. And hopeful get it warrantied

Just bring it inside with you for the night. Cuddle it, sing to it by the fire, what ever floats your boat. Just don't take it to bed with you....

She's alive!!! Thanks for all the help guys.

That's another thing to add to my knowledge base that I can do now.

Got a replacement battery from CT, they upgraded me to an Eliminator for free, because the regular motomaster wasn't in stock. Yay.

Popped her in a couple of hours ago, started up after a few put puts, went to pick up some Kotthu Rotti from a place in Scarborough called Gasa.

Mmm.

Feels good to boost again and drive again. Damn.

Bigass smile on my face.

Awesome! I cant wait till the snow is gone or at least the streets are dry to bring mine home and test out the new clutch.

Good to hear she's back on the road!