1g NO START

Hi everyone. I'm new to the dsm world. Anyway, I bought the car about 2 months ago, car wasn't drivable since the clutch pedal had no pressure. Changed the slave and master cylinder but nothing. In the end it ended up being a bad clutch pedal assembly.

Now on to the issue at hand. The car was at my mechanics for a while. He did the pedal assembly, oil change, stainless steel lines and exhaust. I drove it home Sunday and the car was driving fine. Sputtering a bit between 1-3000 rpm and nothing in the higher rpms. The car was sitting for like 3-4 years when I got it. Monday I went to start the car and nothing, it keeps cranking and after like 15 tries starts and stays on maybe for 5 secs and sputters and dies. If I try giving it gas it dies right away. I have since changed the coolant temp sensor and changed the spark plugs to BPR6ES from BPR7ES. The plugs are black like the night and I think the rings in the valve cover are leaking a bit cuz there was oil on the spark plug wires (taylor 8mm). I have taken out the ecu and opened it up. The caps are not leaking however I don't have a spare to plug in and see if it's the ecu that's gone bad. Please help me out this car is driving me crazy

MORE INFO: it's a 92 talon tsi awd. 4g63t. Magnus intake. Turbo xs manual boost controller. Auto meter boost gauge.

It's tough to know for sure but my guess would be a fuel related issue from the symptoms that you're describing. We'll need more details about the car, including the year and information on any aftermarket mods that it has.

ECU

Well I just mentioned the mods. It's pretty stock other then the Magnus intake manifold. The previous owner ran nitrous on it. So all the lines and solenoids are there.

When turning it over if I let go off the key the engine sputters, seems like it wants to start. And when it does start the engine runs smooth at times and sometimes is rough but either way it shuts off. I tried giving it gas slowly and the rpms crept up to 3000, it was sputtering the whole time.

I will take the ecu to this shop I found and they can test it see if it's good for $50. To get it fixed or repaired it's $200. They change/upgrade the capacitors. But I already got some from Rtm racing but don't have the skills or nerve to embark on that mission.

In the odd time that it does start, what does your exhaust look like? Not the metal.. the actual smoke.

Lol I haven't checked it to be honest cuz I am the one cranking it. The battery dies quick after maybe 2 or 3 tries so I have to hook up my other car to boost it. I'll get my brother to crank it and I'll check the exhaust smoke. But what can you tell from the exhaust?

I'm leaning towards Corte's suggestion of the ECU, due to the intermittency (you say it runs normally at times before stalling).

The smoke is just a good way to tell what's going on. If it's a fuel issue, you can generally see it in the exhaust. If it's a "my brain isn't telling my engine to run" issue, the exhaust tends to look normal when it does run.

Edit: I wouldn't go out just for the purpose of checking what your exhaust looks like. I was just asking in case you noticed.

You changed the CTS.... how was the wiring to it. Brittle/cracked?

No I didn't notice anything the reason cuz I was in the car the whole time. Even if there was anything wrong I wudnt b able to tell. The car was running beautifully before, start at first turn of the key.

Where is the fuel pump anyway? And how can I access it?

The wiring to coolant temp sensor was fine. Not brittle or cracking. But if I want to check or test the sensor what's the best way of doing it?

So the ecu cud be bad even if the caps didn't leak?

If the caps break down and leak, they generally fry the ECU. They are a cause, not a symptom. The ECU can fail with intact caps.

The fuel pump is in the tank. There is a plethora of information on removing it, as it is one of the most hated jobs for 1G owners. I doubt your issue is in there, but it wouldn't hurt to throw some penetrating oil on the sending unit studs while you're thinking about it.

As far as checking the sensor.. I'll leave you to Mr. Richardson's much more capable hands.

Is the fuel pump accessible from inside the car or does the tank needs to be dropped? I have read horror stories abt the fuel pump. I pray and hope that fuel pump isn't my issue. Waiting for Mr. Richardson to chime in.

I have the ecu disconnected at the moment. Will it hurt anything if it stays disconnected?

The fuel pump is accessible from the cabin; no need to drop the tank. I sincerely doubt your fuel pump is the culprit.

Leaving the ECU disconnected won't hurt anything.

Did you replace the coolant sensor with OEM or aftermarket?

Aftermarket from Rtm racing.

No you can leave the ecu disconnected it wont hurt anything. Yes the fuel pump is accessible from the trunk. I could explain all the testing procedures but if you dont posses all the needed tools or gauges it would be redundant.

First you have to determine why it isnt starting ie no fuel or no spark or is it flooding

I will check it this weekend. I can check spark by taking the spark plug wire out and placing it near the valve cover to see if it sparks. Fuel by seeing if it has any in the fuel rail by disconnecting the fuel line to the rail. How do I know if it's flooding?

And btw the spark plugs I took out we're black and had some oil on the threads.

If it floods the plugs will be wet with fuel after it doesnt start pull a plug if it is wet with fuel its flooding.

You can speculate all day on what it could be, just check basics as Stephen said so you have an idea where to go from there...

Ah alright. Then I think it might b flooding. The spark plugs were wet and did smell like fuel a bit. I just checked the ones I took out and they do smell like gas.

I'm just busy with work and school. Don't have much time to look at the car plus irs freezing outside. Will look at it this weekend. Promised warmer temperatures lets c if they stick to their word. Lol.

I'd also speculate it's the ECU. But is your CAS and plug wires in the right order? Just basic things that could cause it too.

Also, if your ecu IS fried, check your ISC. When faulty, then can cause damage to the ECU.

What's CAS?

Cam angle sensor. It's on the left side of the head.

The car runs smoothly some of the time when it does start, so the plug wire order is fine. Let's not have him chance down impossible causes.

Like Stephen and Roman said: check the basics.

Excessive cranking with no start will cause your plugs to smell like fuel. If it's flooding, when you pull a plug out of the head, there will generally be enough fuel to be able to pour some into your hand from the plug (it gets trapped up around the cathode).

It sounds like you have fuel. Check spark.

Will check spark this weekend. Anything else I can look into while I'm at it?

And thank you everyone for quick replies. I appreciate all the help everyone's given.

What stumps me is that the car was driving fine Sunday and Monday it just wouldn't start. It's like the car forgot how to start lol. It would start so easily before.

That again suggests ECU to me.

After you crank her over to check spark, pop a plug out to see if there's enough fuel to pour into your hand.

Thanks Jeremy. I'm going today to get the ecu tested after work and if it's good I will get the caps upgraded to the new ones I got from Rtm. I will pull the plugs this weekend and see if theyre doused in gas. I just put new plugs in last night. The ones I took out were black like burnt black and reeked of gas.

Could very well be the ECU. But you best figure out what fried it before you plug in a newly repaired one.

No problem!



Agreed. If they find damage on the ECU, I would take Stephan's suggestion above to check your ISC; it's a known culprit for taking out the ECU.

Yeah I was going to say the same Jeremy, but his ISC driver would usually be toasty. Either way if there is a metal one in there I would try and find the plastic black ones, lots of updates were done to prevent frying the ecu.

My black talon had the CAS 180* out and would do the same. Sometimes start, othertimes it would flood the engine. Idle and low rpm would sputter, then sound fine up top.

That's very different from the wires being in the wrong order, and that's very different from running perfectly fine at idle

I think the isc could be the culprit. The car did idle really high at around 1500 rpm. When the car warms up it would stay the same until I drive it then the rpms would drop to around 1000. Give it has again at idle and the rpms would go to 1500 again and then drop below 500 (car sputters and stalling but not shutting off) then rpms back to around 1000 or sometimes 1500. I've only had the car for a month or so and driven it maybe 60 kms total. One long drive from scarbourgh to Mississauga and the rest just test drives after mechanic fixed the clutch pedal issue.

I was gonna take the ecu today but changed my mind due to weather and will go Monday instead. It's a place in Mississauga Called Danmax Electronics. Anyone been there before? When I spoke to them they said they have fixed hundreds of Mitsubishi ecu's and say they usually go bad.

Post some good pictures of the ecu board. Both sides.

Does the crank angle sensor not send the spark signal? He said it was up to 3k RPM that it would sputter.

It's probably not the plug order, but does it really take that long to check the plug order that it wouldn't be worth a check?

There is nothing wrong with checking anything and everything. But blindly throwing parts at a car is just guessing. Test and check away.

And you probably want to lower your plug heat range. The is no need for 7's with the mods you have.

Yea I put in 6ES now. I will take pics of the board today after work and post them.

And I think the sputtering could be from old spark plugs. The car was sitting for a while.

If you think it's the wires, you can check them with an ohm meter.

What's the procedure to check the wires? And by wires you mean the spark plug wires?

I'd be happy to provide you an explanation, but given that it does not pertain to this thread, I would rather do it elsewhere. I don't mean to be offensive, I just notice that every new DSMer that comes on here with an issue gets sent down a half dozen blind alleys.


Awais - If you would like to check your wires, that is your prerogative. You will find they are in the right order.

Testing spark plug wires with an ohm meter is pointless. Given that there's nothing wrong with your wires, testing them by any procedure at this point would also be pointless.

You checked for fuel. Good. Now check for spark.

No offense taken. However when I was changing the plugs I noticed one of the wire was loose meaning it doesn't click into the distributor properly. They are taylor 8mm wires. I widened the clip end of the wire and now it's a little better but still no go. And the boot on the end of two wire boot came off when pulling them from the spark plugs.

I appreciate the help and I understand where you are coming from. I don't want to go checking or purchasing parts blindly either. Will check for spark today and will report back. Also will confirm if I have fuel coming by removing the spark plug after a try at starting the car.

Might be a dumb question but you did replace the 4 year fuel in the tank?

It most likely wouldnt cause your sometimes runs fine problem but it could be cause of the others.

That can be problematic so it's good you noticed it. The reason I'm saying your wires are fine is because you say it runs perfectly fine at times, other than the fact that it stalls after 5 seconds. That wouldn't be possible with wires in a bad order, or an unplugged wire, etc. Also, our engines are perfectly capable of running without one cylinder, so you're looking for something that affects at least two of them, intermittently.

However, as a side note, I would replace your Taylor wires with the factory NGKs found here as soon as possible.

Yes there was barely any in the car. Ran it out and put fresh 91 to the top.

Trying to post a pic here but have no idea how to do so. Any help please

You will need to chose a place to upload your stuff first then post the link.
My two choices are google picasa and dropbox.

Awais, you can email me miles556@hotmail.com and i will post them for you

Perfect

Here we go...

Guys we have spark on all 4 wires. The spark plugs I put in 2 days ago and u can see they're fowling really badly. They're brand new plugs. They were black and smelled funky and the black gunk is like oil.

Getting gas going to the fuel rail. Took the line that goes from the fuel filter into the fuel rail off, asked my brother to crank it and gas went pouring into the cloth I was covering the line with.

So the picture of the plugs up there are plugs that were brand new a few days ago, and have only seen the car cranking?

Yes

I dunno what's going on. The car started once and it was running so smooth. Then just died 5 secs later.

Your ECU looks perfectly fine. But it would be a good preventative measure to change the three capacitors anyway. There may be minor leakage under them that can't be seen, and they are about 23 years old.

And get a socket under that eprom!

What's a socket? And I know the ecu looks fine to the eye but could there be something funky going on electronically? I mean I have spark and I am getting fuel. Thing just doesn't wanna start. Could it be the CAS? Thank god this isn't my daily lol. Have a 89 probe. Phew lol

Just looked socketing will do later. Need the car going for now

The biggest concerns with ECU's are leaking capacitors and the second concern are burnt drivers. Capacitors could be leaking underneath that you can't see. Drivers are the six black rectangles on the left, they look OK. All the chips look undamaged as well. Most problems with ECU's are actually visible.

The chip that says E931 is an Eprom, which means it can be reprogrammed. If you get the electronic place to install a socket underneath the eprom you can change it any time you want, including installing DSM Link.

Understood. I will do some more tests tomorrow or Sunday I havent checked the injectors yet. Could my coil pack me going? And I am not sure when the last owner did the timing belt job. Car has 142000 kms.

I visually looked all the belt by removing the cover and the belt looks fine.

Your plugs look like they have dry carbon build up, or are they oily? What did you gap them to?

The ECU looks good as Robert stated. Do the timing marks line up on the belt? How much fuel pressure does a rag full of fuel equal? The plugs dont look that wet. Could be your fuel pressure or compression is low.

The plugs are oily. I just wiped them clean. And I gaped them to around .028.
Gas came pouring out with a bit of pressure. And when I disconnected the line there wasn't any pressure on the fuel rail. I will do a compression test soon.

There wasnt any pressure in your fuel rail? But cranking with the line off you had pressure? If so try pinching off the return line after the regulator. And see if it starts.

Yea when I took the line from fuel rail there was no pressure it just opened up without any dramatic effects. However when I aksed my brother to crank the car gas came pouring out that it wet the whole rag in about 2 seconds.

The ECU looks fine.

I would also suggest pinching your fuel return line to see what happens. If your regulator isn't holding enough pressure, you won't get enough fuel to keep the car running. Pinching the line is a makeshift way of applying the pressure to the rail when your regulator cannot.

Gasoline is a cleaner; last time I was flooding, my plugs came out with a mirror finish.

Only one plug was semi clean. The rest dark and black and gunky. I think it could be the fuel pump or the fuel pressure regulator. I will pinch the wire and check.

GUYS!!!!! I pinched the return line and the car started like it was nothing. U guys are great help. What should the next step be?

It stayed on and didn't turn off when I gave it gas.

most likely weak pump or failed pressure regulator. How is your fuel system? type of pump ? rewire ?

Replace your CAS and wires..... just kidding. Get a new regulator.

Or do an actual fuel pressure test.

Oh man I'm so relieved. I will look it up how to do a fuel pressure test. I just hope I don't have to change the fuel pump. Cuz from what I heard its a pain to do it.

Awesome

Technically, the next step would be do to a proper fuel pressure test. That would tell you if it's the pump or regulator.

I would guess it's the regulator, but as I said a while back you might want to squirt some penetrating oil on the fuel sending unit studs in your trunk. If you ever end up taking it out, you'll be happy you started soaking them now.

You need a fuel pressure tester. And the banjo bolt adapter for your fuel filter. Dont be scared of the fuel pump worse case you break all the studs if they arent already. Spray em like Jeremy said.

A question. With how much pressure would fuel pour out of the line from the line to the fuel rail? And where exactly is the fuel pump? Is it near the left side of the trunk near the end? Cuz I did see a black cover there but the battery holder is on top of it. I will change the regulator and hope that's what the issue is. I've changed the fuel pump in my 89 ford Probe myself and it wasn't so hard. I will get the fuel sending unit from Rtm also.

The pump is under the cover in the trunk.

No need to spend money on a new sending unit unless you really want to, just drill yours out and put in a bulkhead if that's the route you really want to go.

As Jeremy said soak them, I broke 4 out of the 6 on mine and it's been a headache since.

Maybe someone has there old fuel pressure regulator laying around, I would give you mine but it's with someone else that was having similar issues.

You can also spend a little money and get an adjustable fuel regulator, and throw a gauge on that, especially if you ever plan on upgrading the pump in the future.

I got some stock fuel pressure regulator's kicking around. Pm me if you want.

I wanna get a new one cuz it looks amazing lol. And yes I do want to upgrade in the future.

Well the cars not gonna b driven this winter. I was planing on working on it and upgrading it slowly and bring it on the road this summer. I will upgrade both the fuel pump and the regulator.

Again I want to thank you all for ur time and help. This has been a nice welcome to the dsm world. Do u guys meet anywhere?

May want to change the fuel filter before the pump.

Tried that today and the hard line Wudnt budge. Got an oem from Rtm.

We had 3 meets this last summer, as long as people are motivated they do happen.

If you are going to do the upgrade I would go aftermarket filter with -6 from pump to rail. Nice easy upgrade.

Bad news guys. I got a fpr from roman and even after putting that one in the car struggles to start. I still have to clamp the return line to start it and keep it on. If I disconnect the car struggles to stay alive, rpms go low and the car wants to die if I give it gas it bogs and backfires.

That would then suggest that you're not getting enough fuel from the pump. A proper fuel pressure test can confirm that.

May want to change the fuel filter before the pump. Even a fuel pump test assumes a non clogged filter.

When it's clamped up its fine other then running hella rich and exhaust reeking of gas. I'm just gonna get an adjustable fpr and do the fuel filter and pump at the same time.

Shud I get bigger injectors while I'm at it too? And with these mods done can I raise the boost a little more safely or would I need other mods?

John makes a good point; you might want to start with the filter alone. A pump may not be necessary.

If you want to start modifying, I suggest starting with some proper tuning software. You'll need some way to control your fuel before going to larger injectors. I'll let the guys with DSMLink chime in, but the first step would be getting the ECU socketed.

Definitely get the car running before other mods! Changing injectors now is not a good idea.

How did you try getting the filter's hard line off? Did you do the two wrench trick?

I unplugged the mass and the car started without the return being clamped. I plugged it back in and the car wanted to die and sputters. So I think it's the mass

I borrowed a line wrench from a neighbor and I sprayed penetrating fluid on the hard line on the fuel filter. I'm gonna have a crack at it tomorrow. Cars too hot rite now I had it running for a bit trying to figure the issue. Which I think is the mass air flow sensor.

Try with a second wrench on the filter in a way that when you squeeze the wrenches together it loosens the flare nut.

I was thinking it sounded like a MAFS or ECU problem too but then saw you were on to something with the fuel pressure. Hopefully it's the MAFS, much easier!

Ah that makes sense

Thats why you to do a proper fuel pressure test. Unplugging the maf just puts ecm into a limp home mode. It is not a diagnostic procedure to unplug stuff and see if it runs. Test the fuel pressure if it is in spec. Move on to the next step.

Where is the fuel pressure supposed to be at? And how do I perform this test?

1g base fuel, 37 psi, with the vacuum hose off.

And I tee in on top of the fuel filter right? But my car has stainless steel braided thick lines from the filter to the rail. Previous owner was running nitrous on it and did some mods. I'll take a pic.

Avoid teeing. You need an adapter for the top of the fuel filter which needs to be made. If it was rubber and you had an extra I would say tee in a fuel pressure gauge there but the way the car is set up I wouldn't touch the braided line.

Then you need to find a way to get a gauge in there. Whether it be at the pump or rail. But you are just pissing in the wind until you have your basic figured out. It could be a bad pump, plugged filter or even poor wiring at the pump. Or it could be a maf or ecu. But without even knowing what your fuel pressure is at its kinda hard to guess.

That's true. I'll figure a way to test my fuel pressure. I'll post a pic of the fuel filter setup and please let me the easiest way to do this test. I'm very new to this stuff. However in technically inclined.

Well just so you know you have made it much further than most newbies we see on the board. I am sure you will have this thing up and running soon enough.

B&M RTM makes a special banjo bolt to add a gauge to the stock fuel filter.

Make sure to get a liquid filled gauge and keep in mind that it will read ~6psi low when hot.

If you already have AN lines on there than something like this would work.

You're doing great, don't worry! You'll pick it up quickly.

If you're still on the stock fuel filter, then as Rob said they make THIS to allow you to easily get a fuel pressure reading at your filter.

Pretty sure this is the piece you need to plumb in a gauge if you already have -6an lines:

https://www.rtmracing.com/xcart/product.php?productid=17734&cat=383&page=1

Oops, I missed the post where you mentioned having braided lines from filter to rail. The piece that Ziggy linked will make it incredibly easy.

I think the lines might be bigger then -6 an. They are pretty thick. How do I check if they are -6 or -8 an lines? I'm just being patient. And Roman Cullen has been helping me as well. He hooked me up with a fpr and Is willing to lend me an ecu as well. I'm just taking it slow and work on it when I get home from work. I'll get that adapter from rtm. I asked a member to post the pics of the fuel filter I took. Hopefully he posts them soon so u guys can see what I'm working with.

It is unlikely they are -8an. That is not very common, especially if the line up to the filter was still stock. IN all likelihood it will be -6an lines you have.

Made a photobucket account finally lol.

Fuel filter. Top view
http://s1377.photobucket.com/user/a...mage_zpsd4a35ce8.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2

Fuel filter. Side view
http://s1377.photobucket.com/user/a...mage_zpsda321130.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

Engine bay
http://s1377.photobucket.com/user/a...mage_zps47d4978b.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

Hey Ziggy. Nice to see u here.

Try copying and pasting the hyperlink to the .jpg and use these codes before and after the hyperlink to display pictures on this board.

Example; [img]whatever-the-image-is-dot-jpg[/img]

Yeah I would say -6 looks right.
Where does the line that was for NOS go to?

To the trunk for the bottle.

[img]http://s1377.photobucket.com/user/a...mage_zps47d4978b.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0[img]

Agh didn't work

IMO I would delete that "T" at the filter and replace it while there. Then run the -6an to the rail, then from the rail to the FPR and from the FPR back to your return line. It's how I have mine set up.

Unless you have plans to use the NOS. Which I have to assume is the "wet" system. Given it's plumbed into your fuel line. I'm not very knowledgeable on NOS systems so hopefully another member can chime in about that.

Other than that, welcome to the board Awais. Glad to see a new member here willing to get their hands dirty

Photobucket specifically has a very neat function that allows you to copy the image hyperlink while viewing that image in their website. I believe it's called "URL Copy" I also use photobucket. Have been for at least a decade and it's awesome!

Nos is all booked up. The solenoids are there. I'm not sure what kinda system it is as im new to Nos also. And I certainly don't want to use it either. I do want to remove it altogether and sell if it anything. But that work is extensive and I don't want to mess with the electric bit of it.

I don't mind getting my hands dirty. This way I'm learning about the car as I go along. I have a 89 probe that I've done most of the work on. The talon has already made me sweat, bleed and cuss a lot lol. But I do want to get it going.

And yea if u suggest it I will remove the "T" from the fuel filter. And run it the way ur saying it.

Yeah it's a wet system. I have spent the last week doing a sh!t load of research on NOS since the MCM boys stuck it in the s2000.
It's odd that the lines goes back to the tank though cause the mixing can pretty much happen right before it goes into the intake.

I would however advice you to do what Mike suggested and remove the T, best to get rid of any variables that don't need to be there.

The reason your img didn't work is because you have to end it with [/img]

2 lines go to the Magnus intake and I think one big line from the trunk where the bottle would be. I will take the "T" off but I just want to make sure where that line goes, I think it's the one for the bottle if I'm not mistaken.

Oh my! Is that a marrette connecting those wires together?!?! Good luck man you got your work cut out for you.

Lol yes It is. N yes I do have a lot of clean up to do.

After having a second look at the photobucket website, there's a side bar menu with 4 options to share a link of the photo. Just clicking it copies it and then you can post it in here. It's the fourth option down named IMG.

I would ditch the n2o. By the looks of the wiring the previous owner didnt have a clue what he was doing. No need to have an oxidizer in your engine bay to help the fire burn.

The previous owner told me that nitrous cools the turbo. That's the reason y he added it. Anyway I do want to get Rid of it and all those unnecessary wires.

Is the tank still in the car? I'd be interested in seeing how and where it's mounted.

Also, your tb vacuum ports are likely better looped than blocked with metal screws. Although this will have nothing to do with your no start, just an FYI.

The car didn't come with a tank. Just a tank holder lol in the trunk. And what do u mean by looping them?

Loop them back around to another port at the top of the TB.

4 ports, 2 loops. And if you don't have the mini clamps at least throw on a zip tie onto the them to hold them down from popping off under boost. It already looks like they're about to.

I suggest you run a few tests to check the health of your car;

- boost leak test.
- compression test.
- leak down test.
- coolant test/flush.

Also checking the fluids drained from the drivetrain.

Getting the car up to par with servicing would be my next priority after diagnosing and repairing the no start.

There's TONS of info here and as you can tell, many members willing to help.

A few proper vacuum port caps work aswell. The P is useful for a boost gauge source seeing as it isnt being used.

But lets not put the cart before the horse. You got a nice mess to clean up before you need to mod it.

Get your fuel pressure tested. Set up you base timing, clean up tte mess of wiring and get all you basic maintanence done.

Car already has a boost gauge not sure what source they using. Which P are u talking abt? On the throttle body? Can u post a pic please

How can I use that line for a boost gauge?

You just connect a vacuum line to it and run it into the cabin

Ah that's so simple. I'm gonna check to see the source of my boost gauge right now. It's an autometer.

If you don't see any hoses connected to the gauge, it may just be electrical. Not the best style of gauge, but it works.

I did see a hose to it. Not sure where it's going tho

Likely tee'd off another line coming from the intake manifold. Look closer to the firewall at the driver side A pillar.