No Start Issue - 1ga Talon Tsi AWD

Hello DSMers,

Back again with an issue that has plagued my 1g Talon ever since I purchased it. I am going to describe 2 different scenarios whereby the symptoms have been exhibited and a make-shift solution implemented that serves as a temporary fix, without a reasonable explanation as to the true cause of the recurring issue. I will leave it to you guys to propose viable theories on the root cause of the issue as well as potential solutions to fix it once and for all.

Scenario 1:
Car is parked in my underground garage over night; i.e.'Cold Start'. I wake up in the morning, put the key in the ignition, starter motor turns the engine and it starts fine. I go to the grocery store and park the car for say 20 minutes. I come back and try to start the car; i.e. 'Warm Start'. The starter motor clicks but does not turn the engine. I roll the car forwards a few feet, pop it in 2nd, drop the clutch, push the clutch back in immediately after, then turn the ignition, start motor turns the engine, car starts fine. And I'm off.

This has been the case pretty much ever since I had the car in my possession. It is intermittent, with no real signs of why sometimes it happens and sometimes it does not. It should be noted that a brand new start was just installed and the grounding wires were fixed up. The only explanation I can think of for this is something involving mechanical resistance (of the engine?), since whenever I get the engine turning by dropping the clutch in gear, it seems to catch just fine.

Scenario 2:
This one happened for the first time this morning. 'Cold Start' again. Woke up in the morning, went to start the car as usual, key in the ignition, starter motor turns the engine, but this time it does not catch; it just keeps rolling over. I tried giving her a little gas but still not luck. One time it caught on and was running for about 5 seconds before stalling. I thought this was air-fuel related, since I have done a few mods lately with the intercooler, MAF/T, AFC2, increase boost, but haven't tuned yet. So I was looking for a misplaced vacuum line or something. But everything seemed fine. Then I tried to do the 'roll' trick again, and low-and-behold, it works. Popped the clutch, turn the ignition and car starts fine again.

Scenario 2 pretty much negates my theory on mechanical resistance, since the engine was turning. This leads me to believe that the root cause is electrical signal-related or has to do with some sort of sensor pertaining to the movement of the vehicle/transmission/crankshaft.

So there you have it. Feel free to ask me any questions. I will try my best to be as responsive as possible in a timely fashion. Looking for ideas on root cause and solutions.

thanks,

It sounds like you battery is on the way out, how old is it?

The starter clicking indicates it's not receiving enough voltage to turn over. I realize it's been (until today) starting when cold but I've had cars in the past that were easier to turn over when cold compared to hot, especially in warm weather when your "cold" starts are around 20 degrees.

+1 on that ^

I think scenario 2 is unrelated to your normal issue and you might have mutiple issues happening.

Have you ever tried boosting (cables I mean. turning up the boost on a in-op car has proven to give poor results) it when hot and it doesn't turn over? If you tried this, without the roll bump manoeuvre first, and it went you could narrow it to battery and or starter. With cable and a jump it might give a bit of a push to a weak starter or battery.

Also you could try checking your battery voltage before your first cold start and then with the car running. Maybe the alternator is not giving a good charge.

Just my two cents and a couple of freebies.

This link won't be helpful but might make you feel better.

Try it now

I almost have a feeling it is still another grounding issue, as when I cleaned up the grounds, it started fine. Could you add another ground cable from battery to firewall, then a second one from firewall to the starter bolt on the transmission to see if it makes a difference.

Hi guys,

Thank you for the feedback. The battery is brand new as of 3 weeks ago. So I doubt it would be a weak battery @chris @ben

I will try the grounding technique you suggested @reza. Update to follow.

Thanks,

i am also with Reza on the grounding issue. I had exact same symptoms with my old 99 Spyder GST. Replacing factory ground cable from firewall to intake manifold solved it for me.

A voltage drop test is a pretty simple way to test your grounds.

As said it seems like you have 2 very different scenarios.

We fixed the No Crank. Now its a no start.

1 issue could be a starter ( yes it is new...most likely rebuilt. Depending on rebuilder it could still be bad.)

Some simple testing with a voltmeter during the no start conditions could answer alot of you question.

I have a question.
How many modifications have been made to the electrical system.
(on your DSM)

I have helped a number of people with no start problems on DSM's
most of the times it is a bad ground. or a ground not hooked up / forgotten about in a rewire. probably not your case because it was running.

i need you to think out side the box... for example i have gotten 3 or 4 DSM's to run were the owners were left frustrated and I boasted I would have it running in 30 min or less.(I also new the car though to be in sound working order) case of beer if you can do it buddy is what they said =)
I found out there power wire for there fuel pump was not making my probe light glow.. thing is this fuel pump rewire was a new and well done mod but i find with the stereo wire 12 gauge it has a million little thin lines of copper all knitted together so any kind of load or draw on them those little fibers some times turn to powder thus good buy good ground or connection.

fixed a 700 HP dsm in under 15 min with and Allan key and razor knife... also noted the car was rewired with a distribution block on fire wall. <(o.0)>

Alas, the mystery has been solved. It was a faulty ignition switch. It was replaced and it is all good now. Big shout out to Reza for being Sherlock Holmes on this one.

Cheers

I just thought I would add another point of note on this no start issue.

So one problem was the 'no crank'; that was resolved with a new ignition switch.

The second issue was a 'no start'. The basic symptom was that the starter motor would crank but it would not catch and run until maybe 40-50 tries (that's right! I would usually have jumper cables connected just so I can keep it going until it started). After several attempts, it would slowly ramp up the chugging to the point it finally caught on. This issue was resolved by installing a new 'Coolant Temperature Sensor'.

Now, my car starts every time I turn the key

thanks Reza!

Wow I had bad CTS wiring and it still didn't take me that long to start. Glad you got it fixed though!

When the CTS wiring on my old 1g went, I couldn't get it to start at all...

Yeah if the CTS is gone or the wiring is messed (most common) it's a no-go.

I had the same "no crank" problem as Danny for ages and I tried everything except the ignition switch. It was Reza who after all suggested the ignition switch to me as well, but my car has been parked for some time.

Now I'm about to DSM again and got to thinking...
1) A new ignition switch is probably expensive.
2) A used ignition switch is an old and probably worn out ignition switch.

I started reading about starter problems and voltage drop and why the ignition switch doesn't work. It's worn out and especially with everything on that circuit, it doesn't supply enough voltage to the trigger wire for the solenoid.

That led me here:
http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/Starter.shtml#OtherOptions
So now the ignition switch only had to supply a milli-amp current to operate the relay and the relay supplies the higher current required by the solenoid (which in turn supplies the 100s of amps needed by the starter motor itself).

I've done it with a $20 trip to Princess Auto
Started very quickly on the first try. I'll post an update after some time on it.

I'm pretty sure the new ignition switch was around $40 for Danny's car from Rock Auto.

Yeah it's not terrible, $60 or so to my door within a week.