Isn't the tranny already out?

Buy a new Pivot Ball, new Fork, send the clutch to Bully to be checked and re-furbed if necessary.

Pivot Ball - $13
Fork - $85
Shipping to/from Bully - $50
Clutch/Pressure plate re-furb if necessary $100-$150
Put the tranny back in.
Done.

If it still doesn't work then the wrong parts are on the car somewhere.

So what car is it anyway? We never did figure that out. A 2.0NA FWD converted to a Turbo AWD?

The master cylinders are different between the 2WD NA and 2WD Turbo. Was the master cylinder replaced with the NA version or the turbo version?

...oh, and I don't appreciate the implication that the mechanic I recommended doesn't know DSM's when mine is over 400k and he's the mechanic that does any work to it if needed. I've never had to tow my car to a shop, never had it leave me stranded on the road in 12yrs of ownership, except for those pesky alt. failures when I didn't have the heatshield.



Considering that the shift cables(!), slave and master cylinders where changed, where else would you look but drop the tranny to see what's happening with the fork and clutch.

I just spoke with Yoshio and both the ball and fork are slightly worn but the clutch is still releasing. Part of the clutch has some scoring. I'm not going to speak for him, but since he warranties his work for 1yr I'm sure he doesn't want to tell you that changing the ball and fork will fix the problem when the clutch is releasing! He'd have to cover the cost of dropping the tranny again. Could be the combination of worn ball, fork, and whatever happened to the clutch.

<sigh>

...from now on I'll keep to myself and let people sort their own sh!t out.

Just to be clear, in my previous post I was not trying to imply that the mechanic does not know DSMs. I was trying to provoke thoughts & questions that might lead to finding the problem.

It's obvious there is some confusion and/or communication break-down because the information I'm reading here doesn't make sense!
e.g. "I don't know what the problem is so we're gonna replace $2000 in parts and see if that fixes it."
Maybe the recommendation was actually for a new clutch, fork & ball - that makes perfect sense because if the transmission is on the floor the rest of the system should have checked out OK

Yes, the transmission is already out.

First off, the pivot ball and fork wear was described to me as minimal, not enough to cause the problem solely. Returning the clutch to bully was never perscribed as an option, replacing the entire clutch w/ flywheel machine was.

The recommendation was:

- Replace the entire clutch assembly.
- Machine flywheel.
- Replace the transmission.

Described to as a '50/50 chance it could be either'

If someone offers a warranty on their work, that's exceptional. However, because you offer a warranty does not mean that if you cannot for certain diagnose the problem, that you should replace all components concerning it as a blanket solution so you can offer me a 1 year warranty on the parts you instal that may not have been required in the first place... that is my only issue, and personally I think that's fair and reasonable.

If the problem could concretely be diagnosed again, the scenario would be different. I don't gamble thousands on 50/50, but hey that's just me.

So conclusively, this seems like the best bet

- Replace pivot and fork.
- Probably replace clutch including throw out bearing
- machine flywheel

Seems like the best bet.

Also, yes, it's a 2.0NA FWD front clip swap to 2.0 AWD Turbo.

Master Cylinder I believe was replaced with the turbo model, but i'll confirm tomorrow morning... would seem retarded if it were not, but i'll check.

Overall however, I appreciate his honesty in respect to telling me he was unable to, with certainty, figure out what the issue was. I think there's just been some bad communication and misunderstanding... I just want to understand exactly what the problem is regardless.

I agree that you probably should not need to replace the transmission, assuming it's only an engagement issue.

Replacing pivot & fork and making sure the clutch & flywheel are proper should fix your problem providing it is not the transmission.

So, I think that's why the suggestion to replace the transmission was made.
Now maybe you should have 50/50 odds if you don't replace the transmission. It's not cheap to have a shop do the re&re so I can understand their suggestion of getting everything done - but with that level of work I think it should be guaranteed 100% fixed.

2.0NA FWD master cyl is MB911650
2.0 AWD Turbo is MB910562
This information is from the Mitsu parts searching software "CAPS".

Thanks Rob, that's what I figured.

Yeah, I just checked the parts online and came up with the seperate #'s.

Now I guess the remaining question is, as crappy tire did the install of the master cylinder and the vin # is equal to the base model... would an incorrect master cylinder bolt on? I told them to get the turbo and the part # is not listed on their invoice actually... I'll check tomorrow.

And also, if the master was bad, would it not be noticeable / effect the hydraulic system working properly?

No prob!

From the diagram it appears to bolt up the same but the rod and clevis are different. That could definitely affect the engagement. In fact, the rod appears shorter for the NT. The bore might be smaller too but I don't have that spec.

I'm really confused with this whole '2.0NA front clip swap to 2.0 AWD turbo' thing.

Can anyone enlighten me? 420a, 4g63? What drivetrain? Sounds like it started it's like with a 420a and currently has a 4g63? Maybe I just need to go to sleep?

I'm guessing someone got the "front clip" (everything from the firewall forward) and made it work.
That would get you all the parts that make the swap so elusive.

The rear end is another story...

Thank you. I will look into this in the morning... If this turns out to be the issue, I will be causing quite the scene in Dundas Canadian tire. I sincerely hope if it is the case they replace both the part and do the labor free of charge.

EDIT: Rob is correct. It appears entirely as a stock model, but everything from the firewall minus the front bumper (which is eagle) is mitsu 4G63T and repainted original red. It is quite allusive, minus the sound of the blow off valve and exhaust haha... and the guages etc.

Also it doesn't matter if that front clip was AWD or FWD turbo, they are the same master cyl part.

Yep haha, that was where my confusion was at first, but it's actually just the turbo engine in its self which apparently requires an entirely different master cylinder... I'll update tomorrow after harassing crappy tire. Thanks again guys.

Don't want to sound like a naysayer here but "changing a front clip" doesn't somehow cause the drivetrain to osmose itself into AWD. Not that this would cause a clutch not to operate either, but something sounds off here.

The drivetrain was changed as well, don't ask me specifically how, but he did that as well. Put it on the hoist engage the gear hit the gas... all 4 wheels spin. It's AWD, I am still trying to get build specifics, but as mentioned earlier the place that did the job has relocated and apparently changed the name. Once the car is back on the road I will drive to bolton and find them manually.

Thanks for saying exactly what was going on in my head. I didnt want to continue nagging, but this whole thread stopped making sense with that whole 'front clip AWD' thing.

Luke, are you sure there was an AWD swap? Or did the car start out it's life as AWD anyway? (Doesn't sound crazy to me). If you can take a look at your gauge cluster for me, and let me know what you see in the bottom left and bottom right gauges, that would ease my confusion. A turbo model will have 2 gauges in each corner, a non turbo would only have one.

Vin # pulls as a red chrysler talon ESI model. I'll double check the guages when I see the car, I only had it for 1 1/2 weeks and didn't pay particular attention to the guages...

What are the extras that appear on the turbo? (on both sides).

UPDATE:

Canadian tire originally told me they replaced with dealer part... Turns out they didn't.

They put a wagner/aftermarket/mastermotor whatever cylinder PART #F131451 (which you can pull off of rockauto) and (KAR)57594 into the car. This particular part I can find *nothing* on... Kars (the supplier who they got the part from) I just got off the phone with and they say it's the same Cylinder, obviously, it isn't....

Not only was the WRONG cylinder supplied to me, but it wasn't an OEM part.

Called the dealer, they confirmed part # differences, called Canadian tire.... and now they want me to bring the car back, they'll replace with OEM dealer part for the turbo engine and do the labor free of charge. Which as far as I am concerned is an admission of guilt, thoughts?

Problem is however, my car is far away @ cluch/trans is dropped out.

I basically am wondering if using this part was the reason my clutch will not engage/disengage.... and the reason why Yoshio was unable to find anything particularly wrong with the assembly. I suppose the cylinder must appear to be almost physically identical in order to not see it was different?

So the question is now...

1) Do I have yoshio put everything back together, replace the bearing and fork, machine flywheel... have it towed back to canadian tire and have them do the master cylinder with the right part and hope for the best?

2) Send the car there sans the trans/clutch installed and have them replace the master cylinder, ship it back to yoshio and go from there?

The cylinder could not be confirmed to be working properly however without the clutch in use, no?

Thanks again, what a nightmare.

ESi Gauge Cluster http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/3066/601/7662800009_large.jpg

TSi Gauge Cluster
http://www.mirage-performance.com/EclipseGSX/Misc/gaugeclusterbezel01.jpg

Not saying you're lying, it just blows my mind that someone would convert the ESi FWD to a TSi AWD. I'd say I'd do it to my ESi, but I already bought a TSi.

I think the guage cluster is TSI actually! Which makes this entire situation more confusing... gah, I will make it my mission to figure that out personally AFTER the car is drivable again lol.

Thoughts on my update? I have to move fast on this one lol.

EDIT: Mine mentions nothing about fuel on the guage, I clearly remember that.

Not sure what to tell you on the advice bit, I mean, it's a possibility that the whole problem lies in the wrong master cylinder, but hopefully one of the more experienced members chimes in here. I'm still new to the mechanical side of things. Sorry.

Assuming it's the wrong master in there and the rod is in fact shorter: They put it to the end of its adjustment and when that didn't work (and the pedal assy & slave being fine) the only thing left to do was dig deeper and pull the trans.

You are definitely between a rock and a hard place here, since CT will probably only want to re-do their work and the shop you're at now has their own ideas of how to get it working again.

I think you should try to get CT to refund your money and you just bring the incorrect master back to them.
Explain how their incompetence has got your car ripped apart at another shop and it's costing you more money even after the refund.

Have the current shop put it all back together with the refurb clutch & new fork/pivot. If the shop learns that the master was wrong, it might become obvious to them that is all that's needed to get it working again. A little peace of mind but don't expect a guarantee seeing as your car is "interesting".

Good luck!

That is what I will do.

Refund Canadian Tire $.

Fork/pivot.
New correct master cylinder.

Should I bother with the clutch refurb if it looks pretty decent? And I should be good without a slave replace as well, yes? (Contradictory information on replacing both simontaneously).

I still need to machine the flywheel as well, correct? Sorry, just want to make sure I get everything right. Thanks guys.

EDIT: If it would be a good idea to replace the clutch components at this time, I will get the recommended ACT clutch... in which case the flywheel is only 150$ more than a machine would cost me, would this be a 'better' option?

Thanks again guys.

I'd agree with Rob. Have the current shop replace the pivot ball, fork and bearing as it's a good opportunity while it's out of the car. But, explain to them first that you have discovered the problem and that all the work they did could have been avoided if they discovered the hydraulic issue first. If done tactfully, they may give you a really good deal on the above work, then back to crappy for the proper master to be installed and hopefully you're good to go.

I'd at least have Bully take a look at the clutch, that's some relatively cheap peace of mind.

If the slave isn't leaking, it's fine (for now).

Do machine the flywheel to the step height that is recommended by Bully for your clutch.

There's no deal haha, I think he's pretty upset/annoyed with me because I've 'made him wait 4 days' while I tried to figure this out on my own... but that's alright, I at least have the CT refund and the peace of mind that things are on there way to improving.

Turns out a guy I know who used to have a dsm will give me his in box act 2600 he never installed for 350$... so that's a steal, only 100-150$ more than sending my clutch to bully to be looked at... I'll get that as well considering i might as well do it now.

I guess as stated before, should I replace the flywheel with the ACT one vs machining it for a whole different clutch now all together?

I would get the ACT flywheel, its a nice piece. I know Ziggy has these in stock for a decent price.

Alrighty then, is there an easy way or a standard way to see if I have a 6g or 7g engine? Sorry if that's a noob question too, iPhone.

You mean there's no app for that?
Just look at the flywheel or the crank, count the bolt holes.

Thank you. I'll do that . Car won't be good to go until the 28th, goodbye christmas haha... hopefully everything else goes smoothly however.

I was there today. It's a 7-bolt. Clutch looks fine, plenty of meat left. There's one part where on the outer edge it looks like it overlaps with the recessed pressure plate bolts and is wearing differently, which is what Yoshio was concerned about.

It's definately a FWD converted to AWD.

Thank you for that!

Also, what would cause that sort of edge wear in one particular edge vs all around?

Here's the couple of pics I took.

Front propeller shaft mount bracket:

The front floor pan looks to be common between FWD and AWD since the mount is already there.

Rear propeller shaft mount bracket:

New rear mount needed to be added.

Clutch:


The clutch has some different wear on the outer edge where it over-laps the bolt recess. As the clutch engages/dis-engages the edge of the recess scuffs up the outer edge.

And the verdict on this is...........