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Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop #320165
December 11, 2009 06:23 pm UTC
December 11, 2009 06:23 pm UTC
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Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Luke Wynter Offline OP
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Apparently this topic has been covered multiple times i appolgize in advanced i've tried searching and haven't been able to conclude a solution.. I'm Quickly amassing a large bill and recently lost my job so I can't afford the hit and miss analyis. Here's the problem and what had been done thus far.

Traditional, hard for car to go into first and third, reverse grind upon purchase.

Firstly, replaced fraying clutch cable...

Secondly, just replaced as of today master cylinder which was leaking. Slave cylinder isn't leeking. Rebleed all areas before and after... Clutch will not disengage properly.

When the car is off, it will go into gear fine. When I tried to get it to go into any gear now with the clutch depressed the car will not go into gear at all. I can move the car from any gear into neutral without depressing the clutch while the engine is on as well. The car will not start with the Cluth not depressed and upon starting with the clutch depressed all the way to the floor the car will immediately boot forwards (totally in gear) I do however get vibration if I hold the clutch to the floor while it's in gear and have the break on, almost like the friction point is now that low? Also, while the car is in neutral, engine on, when I try to engage the car into gear with the clutch fully depressed the rpm's increase for *any gear* any the car starts to creep forward... honestly I am beyond confused.

I've droppe over 500$ thus far on opinions from people who said it would be fixed with this, hasn't been, I don't want to drop the trans at the current shop it's at (Canadian tire... Couldn't move it without turn on / off technique to change gears as of yesterday so I took it o closest location). I am headed there shortly to try to adjust the clutch rod for them, or oversee... But at this point I just need the car for my new job I just started this previous week and I commute to get there.. My other car is in storage for the winter and off insurance so driving it is not an option.

If anyone can help, or can recommend someone who can diagnose and fix the actual problem it'd be greatly appreciated. I don't mind paying the bill, I just want this issue solved and to stop wasting my time at places that have no idea about dsm's.

It's a 97 talon base with a front clip swap from a eclipse, now turbo awd.

If anyone knows of a shop that's in or close to Mississauga or can do the work themselves, feel free to call me, i'm headed there in 2 hours and will have to move the car... Also when I agreed to let them repair the master cylinder, they said it would fix the problem... Am I stuck with this whole bill now too?

416 456 3975. Please advise thanks in advance and I appologize if this s confusing etc I'm on my iPhone...

Thanks again guys.

Last edited by Luke Wynter; December 11, 2009 06:25 pm UTC.
Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320168
December 11, 2009 06:32 pm UTC
December 11, 2009 06:32 pm UTC
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Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Also the car has a stage 2 buddy clutch in it, and I believe the flywheel (told by original owner) was resurfaced at the same time the clutch was put in. Trans was rebuilt a year ago at the time of the swap... so I doubt it's the synchros either.

When I had the car saftied and e-tested (only a week ago) I also had the trans fluid replaced with redline.. so I know it's not an issue of old shitty trans fluid in respect to the grinding I was experiancing.

Just thought i'd add that for additional information, thanks again guys.

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320169
December 11, 2009 06:33 pm UTC
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Sounds almost identical to what happened to my car last weekend. The car wouldn't go into gear with the engine turned on, but when the engine was off it went into gear just fine. I could drive the car, so long as I put it into the gear I wanted to drive in (1st or reverse) and THEN turned the car on. If the car was on, and I tried to put it in a forward gear I would press the clutch in and move the shifter forward, the car would creep forward. In reverse gear it would just grind.

The solution was that my clutch was totally worn out. No friction surface left. I had to replace my clutch then and there, since it's been fine. Sadly, if you're doing it at a shop, it's an incredibly expensive fix.

Edit: have you recently been noticing anything strange with the car? Clutch slipping? When I put throttle down, my clutch would slip as boost hit. RPM's and Boost would rise like mad, but nothing made it to the ground

Last edited by Eric Kellar; December 11, 2009 06:35 pm UTC.
Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: EK] #320177
December 11, 2009 06:50 pm UTC
December 11, 2009 06:50 pm UTC
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Luke Wynter Offline OP
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Eric, thanks for the quick reply.

I am probably going to flip my lid if it turns out the clutch is gone, seeing as it was indeed replaced just a year ago lol... What kind of price would I be looking at for labor? I'll have the parts imported from the states if I have to and eat the cost there, do you have a recommendation as to a shop?

I noticed a bit of slipping one night when I was stuck in traffic in toronto and it was stop and go for about 45 minutes... went to go on the highway and just gave her... rpm's shot up but absolutely no response from the car... 1-2 seconds later it started moving, slowing, but that was the only extreme scenario.

Now, the internals of the car minus the clutch is stock so far as the turbo swap internals are... if I *have* to replace the clutch, what's the best option? Should I just go with OEM seeing as I have no intentions of modifying this car at this time? and also with the reduction of a heavier pressure plate it should reduce probability of problem recurrance, no?

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320179
December 11, 2009 06:59 pm UTC
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I haven't got any recommendations about a shop to do it, but I've heard that a good one to go to is Japanese Automotive, and get Yoshio to do the work. I think it was Tashko S that mentionned that one. No idea of labour costs either, since we did all the work ourselves in the driveway (Sudbury crew and I)

I personally opted to go with a heavier clutch, an ACT 2600. If you have no intention of modifying you could get away with an OEM clutch, but make sure to replace the throwout bearing while you are down there. If you are looking at route, Ziggy sells an OEM style clutch/pressure plate replacement kit for $182. It comes with a new throwout bearing and an alignment tool, so you're good to go in that regard.

https://www.rtmracing.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16782&cat=816&page=1

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: EK] #320181
December 11, 2009 07:14 pm UTC
December 11, 2009 07:14 pm UTC
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Luke Wynter Offline OP
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Thanks for the link, that'll definitely be where I get the parts if they're needed.

Another note would be that the mechanic mentioned the slave rod was not engaging fully, but i've read massive contradictory statements about getting the slave rod extension... would it be worth a shot to do this?

I guess the final and remaining question is, should I allow them (Canadian tire) to drop the transmission and look at it and the clutch or tow immediately (i have free towing with CAA) to a shop like the one you mentioned? should I bother having the flywheel machined and replaced as well if necessary during the procedure?

Sorry if some of these are newb questions, I'm still getting into this and DSM is totally new to me... i'm a nissan junkie, but don't have the space (no garage and currently outdoor parking) to do any work myself.. frown.

Thanks again for the help.

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320183
December 11, 2009 07:25 pm UTC
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I'm blessed with Fidanza replacable flywheel surface inserts, but it's never a bad idea to replace/resurface your flywheel while you're down there. I don't want to be the one to say 'yeah go ahead and let them pull your tranny and take a peek' because I KNOW it's an expensive job, and I don't want to take that gamble for your sake.

If the mechanic mentioned slave rod not engaged fully, you absolutely could try the extended slave rod. That's a much cheaper fix than a new clutch. Can do that yourself smile

P.S. The same mechanical logic works between cars, regardless of brand. They all for the most part work the same way.

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: EK] #320192
December 11, 2009 09:23 pm UTC
December 11, 2009 09:23 pm UTC
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I'm confused what you have, cause you mention the cable for the clutch was replaced?, and then you mentioned the hydraulics were replaced?, its one or the other, on a Talon TSI it is hyraulic. You mentioned you have a buddy clutch?, do you mean that you have a Bully Clutch - Bully is located in Ottawa, ON., and will rebuild the surfaces. Many things can cause clutch issues.

- Bent clutch fork
- Worn povit ball
- Separated throwout bearing - usually heard
- Air in hydraulics/ bad slave, worn bore on slave, bend rod.
- Clutch pedal assembly - not so common on a 2Gen
- Bad/incorrect flywheel resurfaceing - noticed upon install though.
- Missing starter plate - noticed upon install
- Separated clutch friction surfaces
- Bent presure plate fingers
- Broken clutch spring - usually heard
- Bad adjustment

There are other things aswell, but CT won't find the problem.

EDIT: "rebuilt" take that with a grain of salt, there are many levels of being rebuilt.

Last edited by Malcolm Harris; December 11, 2009 09:27 pm UTC.
Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Malcolm Harris] #320194
December 11, 2009 09:38 pm UTC
December 11, 2009 09:38 pm UTC
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Luke Wynter Offline OP
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Clutch cable... that is the best way I know to explain it, the cable that when the clutch is depressed allows the transmission to change gears... This also confused one guy I was talking about, but it's a long metal cable.. althought I am aware the TSI is hydraulic as well.

Yeah Bully is what i meant, I however am in Toronto and a trip to Ottawa is not really feasible at the current time lol.

Yeah that became blatently apparent, so I moved the car back to my place... the only question remains is really where do I take it from here?

In respect to your list however, half of those I have no idea how to check for to give you an idea of how unmechanically savvy I am.

I was just hoping it wouldn't come to that really... although honestly, if the clutch was replaced only a year ago and the transmission rebuilt, I'm having a hard time understanding how it could in reality be either.

One thing is certain, I need to take it to someone who actually knows DSM's... and that is what I hope to achieve, before I waste my towing km's... just a shop that people feel confident will for sure be able to properly diagnose and correct this issue. That is what remains and recommendations would be greatly appreciated, thank you.

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320196
December 11, 2009 09:59 pm UTC
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There's no clutch cable, if you look under your dash up at the clutch, you'll see that the pedal is attached to the clutch master cylinder. Malcolm does have a point, it could be any number of those things he listed, it's going to take a bit of diagnoses. That's for certain. Look into Japanese Automotive. I've heard good on this board about them. smile Good luck.

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: EK] #320197
December 11, 2009 10:16 pm UTC
December 11, 2009 10:16 pm UTC
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Japanese Automotive is by Yorkdale.

Dufferin & 401

174 Bridgeland Avenue
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
M6A 1Z4

Telephone: 416-781-1179


1997 Eclipse GST/X
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Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Michael Lee] #320198
December 11, 2009 10:30 pm UTC
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I am confused by this... "It's a 97 talon base with a front clip swap from a eclipse, now turbo awd".

If your talon was a base model, then it came with the 2.4L Chrysler engine. How is it now a turbo awd?


Last edited by James Karban; December 11, 2009 10:30 pm UTC.

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Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: James Karban] #320199
December 11, 2009 10:33 pm UTC
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You probably just need to replace the clutch and bleed the clutch system correctly!


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---Sold----
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Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: James Karban] #320200
December 11, 2009 10:49 pm UTC
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James, the non turbo 'base' model talon came with a 2.0L, not a 2.4. The N/A engine is a 420A Chrysler. (I have two of these).

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Michael Lee] #320202
December 11, 2009 11:09 pm UTC
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Luke Wynter Offline OP
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Thank you. I will contact them.

Also, out of curiosity... The car was built by Car tune genie, a mechanic named Curtis O'conner who'se apparently now in bolton, however the google listed # says no longer available... I know it's a long shot I just figured perhaps someone from around that area might know something?

Thanks again, I'll send the car to Japanese Automotive and keep you posted, much appreciated!

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320204
December 11, 2009 11:28 pm UTC
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Ok so it came with the 420a, how did he convert the car to awd turbo? you forgot to answer the question lol.


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Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: James Karban] #320217
December 12, 2009 01:48 am UTC
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No no, i've personally got no idea. I've never met Luke, nor have I seen his car. I'd like to see pictures *hint hint* wink

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: EK] #320224
December 12, 2009 04:31 am UTC
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You can go through a clutch disc farily quick, depending on your driving driving style.

I would not use an OEM replacement, I would suggest getting a ACT 2100 and an ACT street disc.

Feels just like stock, and will hold more than enough power and abuse you throw at it (easy 300+hp).





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Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Jamal Qazi] #320225
December 12, 2009 05:40 am UTC
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Luke Wynter Offline OP
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I don't drive harshly at all, really, and my 350z's clutch (and i've owned 2 so far) grabbed wicked for 42000k on my first car and no issues what so ever on my second (but only 13.5k)... but you could very well be right *sigh* lol.

Alright, if it's the clutch i'll do the ACT... big difference between 2600 and 2100? use the act streetlite flywheel I assume?

I was told my car dyno's at about 260... but seeing as I've now taken the time to look at the internals.. i'm not seeing it haha.

I will gladly take some pics once it's up on the hoist, what do you guys want to see? engine/turbo/drivetrain or what?

You ain't missing much looking at the car as it stands in any regard, sitting on steelies on paint that the last owner neglected... sad really.

Oh well, so I need flywheel confirmation and anyone would like to see heh.

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320235
December 12, 2009 04:18 pm UTC
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I just had my Bully clutch replaced by Bully, cost me around $250. I'll dig up the receipt later. I had a Stage3 half kevlar half ceramic 6-puck. The clutch had 50,000kms on it and was still good for another year of competition. I decided to go ceramic/ceramic since I'm upping the power and the tranny was out anyway. I'll check how much shipping was also.
I think if you are pushing 260 at the wheels you should be on Stage3 not Stage2. Call Bully, they have a 1-800 number let them know what you have and what you want from the clutch (i.e. longevity, power holding, what type of driving). They are very easy to deal with.

I'm not a fan of slave rod extensions. Stinks of treating the sympton not the cause.

BTW, I'll be at Yoshio's around 1:30 this afternoon if you ended up going there maybe I'll see your car (or you!)



Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Tashko Sarakinov] #320244
December 12, 2009 05:42 pm UTC
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If you're in a bind and can't afford a clutch job right now at least try the extension rod (have you tried fooling around with the adjustment rod, at least try maxing the OEM one out!). May not fix the problem but is better than nothing.


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Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320257
December 12, 2009 09:52 pm UTC
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Originally Posted by Luke Wynter
I don't drive harshly at all, really, and my 350z's clutch (and i've owned 2 so far) grabbed wicked for 42000k on my first car and no issues what so ever on my second (but only 13.5k)... but you could very well be right *sigh* lol.

Alright, if it's the clutch i'll do the ACT... big difference between 2600 and 2100? use the act streetlite flywheel I assume?


When I was using an ACT 2100 and a street disc combo, and I was riding the clutch way too much, I end up switching that street disc with an ACT 6 puck sprung disc. Grabs great and hold a lot more power.

I wouldnt reccommened the 6 puck if your just daily driving, for the track i would. Get the ACT street disc and ACT 2100 for daily driving.


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Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Jamal Qazi] #320258
December 12, 2009 10:29 pm UTC
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Luke Wynter Offline OP
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First off, thanks again for the prompt responses and help.

Car is at Yoshio's now, he's going to look at it on monday morning so I will provide updates at that time.

Tashko - He had so many in there, was yours the silver 1G up on the hoist? Lots of very nice rides in there... mine was a tad dirty haha felt like a bit of a loser in comparison haha.

The master cylinder rod has been maxed out via the under dash adjustment, I may try the slave extention rod if he thinks that's the issue, but he'll probably want to drop everything regardless. I'll have to wait until monday to find out I suppose.

I'm not really sure what the bully clutch will look like, i'll let you guys know, but I don't have time to order a new one from them unless they'll ship quick... would you recommend it over ACT? How are they in respective comparison? They seem cheaper.

If it's the clutch i'll do the recommended act combo, or bully if people think that's a better alternative?

Thanks again guys, will post with updates!


Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320303
December 14, 2009 05:52 pm UTC
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Hey Luke,

Yup, mine was on the hoist. I missed you by about 10mins evidently.

Saw your car there...nice new shifter cables. I'm guessing that's what was meant by a new clutch cable! That's an unusual thing to change.

Bully takes a day each way so figure about three days total to have the clutch back in your hands.


Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Tashko Sarakinov] #320305
December 14, 2009 06:45 pm UTC
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Almost as 'unusual' as my friends mechanic mysteriously snapping it while it's on the hoist eh? Don't even get me started on that one lol.

So surprise surprise, he's dropping the clutch/trans out to take a look. I'll keep everyone posted with what goes down smile.

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320306
December 14, 2009 07:07 pm UTC
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That's sort of what I was thinking would be done, but I am a lot more comfortable with someone OTHER than crappy tire looking at it. I would never allow a CT mechanic to work on my car.

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: EK] #320479
December 16, 2009 09:12 pm UTC
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Luke Wynter Offline OP
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So this is the analysis.

Nothing *appears* to be wrong with either part(s), yet I should replace both? I'm sort of at a loss for words and a complete loss of understanding.

His exact words were 'Nothing appers to be wrong with clutch, nothing with transmission'... so what exactly is wrong with my car and why is he recommending I spent 2000$ out of the blue? I'm lost here guys, help me out.. I'm not certain if it's a language barrier but I tried my best to understand and phrase in multiple variances so it'd be clear.

What should I do? Have the car taken somewhere else now?

I just cannot grasp the concept of spending that much money if you can't even tell me what the problem is, and you tell me there appears to be none?

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320481
December 16, 2009 09:24 pm UTC
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As a clutch disk wears out, the engagement point should get higher and higher. If the disk is almost gone, it might be a good idea to put a new one in there since the transmission is off. Though the problem doesn't seem like it is the clutch, sounds more like a simple engagement issue.

Did you try adjusting the master cylinder rod for more engagement ? It could even be a worn out clutch fork and pivot ball causing you to lose some throw.

Maybe the mechanic knows this and will fix the issue along with tossing in a new clutch, I dunno....


1G DSM: 1000+ AWHP, 9.2@162.83 MPH
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Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Reza Mirza] #320488
December 16, 2009 09:55 pm UTC
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Luke Wynter Offline OP
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Master cylinder rod extended fully, yes. the engagement point of my clutch is very low from the floor... maybe 2 inches? It's not very high at all.

Excuse my ignorance, however if it was the clutch fork and pivot ball wouldn't that be obvious considering both components are now completely off the car and it's on the hoist?

Again, still learning.

Also, altohugh it may very, my engagement point in my 350 is far higher and has been since I got it at 6k.. so are you certain about that fact or that pertains to DSMs in general?

I need to know how to specify with this guy, because his explainations are not detailed at all so I cannot even convey what has been done minus what I have detailed.. however I brought it to this shop because it was recommended, although by prices he's quoting me I might as well be at the dealer lol.

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320491
December 16, 2009 10:03 pm UTC
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Well if I actually had the car to look at, I am pretty certain I could tell you exactly what the problem is. Since it is in the hands of another mechanic, its hard to predict what he is doing or seeing. Something is not right, and with the trans off it should be a no brainer figuring it out.

Also, don't compare the DSM to the 350, every car is different and so are the clutch mechanisms. Ideally you should get your DSM to shift right at the top of the throw just like your 350.

No, it is not normal for a DSM to shift near the floor. All my DSM's shift right at the top of the throw, where it is supposed to be.

Engagement point getting higher as the disk wears out is not DSM specific. As the disk wears out the pressure plate fingers tend to stick out more towards the throwout bearing. This in turn causes it to need lesser and lesser clutch pedal travel as the disk is released early (since the PP fingers are more towards the throwout bearing).

You may or may not notice this minute amount as you just get used to it over time.


1G DSM: 1000+ AWHP, 9.2@162.83 MPH
Evo X: 746 AWHP, XR9569S pump gas
www.dynotuneracing.com



Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Reza Mirza] #320494
December 16, 2009 10:18 pm UTC
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Thank you for your response, I sent you a pm as well.

What would it generally mean if my engagement point was so close to the floor upon purchase?

In regards to your first paragraph, that is *exactly* what I expect(ed) and find that the lack is a bit unprofessional, but again, the language barrier MIGHT be a factor.

Sorry for the moot comparison, I was trying to get at why my engagement point would be so low if the clutch *wasn't* wearing out? I guess that may actually be my question.

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320495
December 16, 2009 10:30 pm UTC
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Originally Posted by Luke Wynter
I was trying to get at why my engagement point would be so low if the clutch *wasn't* wearing out? I guess that may actually be my question.


If the engagement point is low but the parts are fine, then the problem is the pedal adjustment, the hydraulic system or the geometry at the slave/fork/pressure plate.

This page can help sometimes...
http://www.roadraceengineering.com/clutchandflywheeltech.htm


1993 Eagle Talon TSi FWD
13.8 @ 106 :::: 14.1 @ 117
Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Reza Mirza] #320497
December 16, 2009 10:32 pm UTC
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Originally Posted by Reza Mirza
No, it is not normal for a DSM to shift near the floor. All my DSM's shift right at the top of the throw, where it is supposed to be.


My experience with 2Gs is that the clutch engagements is typically right near the floor. This can be adjusted up somewhat, but if you go too far you get the inconsistent "pump up".

I only had time to do a quick scan of the thread, but it seems like it's just bad adjustment to me. I would double-check that...

Also, take a good look at the actual clutch pedal lever, especially up where it pivots. On 2Gs they crack, and when that happens it seems just like a hydraulic problem.

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Jeff Mitchell] #320501
December 16, 2009 10:42 pm UTC
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Originally Posted by Jeff Mitchell

My experience with 2Gs is that the clutch engagements is typically right near the floor. This can be adjusted up somewhat, but if you go too far you get the inconsistent "pump up".


Yup correct :), you don't want to go too far and preload the system. That could be a possibility in this case too.

The 1g's can suffer from the same thing too with new parts and a good pedal asssembly. I can get my 1g to preload as well if I adjust the rod all the way out. I always adjust every clutch I work on to the highest point possible without preloading it.

You can easily check to see if it is preloaded by going over to the slave and pressing the piston in by hand. It should slide in easily without the clutch pressed down. If it is solid stiff and the piston won't move, it is preloaded. Using this method I can get the engagement point pretty high. Good for your tranny, synchros, and shifting over 8k rpm wink



1G DSM: 1000+ AWHP, 9.2@162.83 MPH
Evo X: 746 AWHP, XR9569S pump gas
www.dynotuneracing.com



Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Reza Mirza] #320503
December 16, 2009 10:47 pm UTC
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What to check for on a 2G pedal:

Broken 2G pedal
Closeup

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Jeff Mitchell] #320504
December 16, 2009 10:52 pm UTC
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The hydraulic system is fine to the best of my knowledge, I will ask him to double check.

The car is pretty far from me so I cannot just go over there and double check, I asked them to check this for me however and they said it was fine... but now I'm second guessing since so many people seem to think this is an issue.

Is there a mechanic or someone in the general area who knows what they're doing who would consider checking this for me, or going with me to examine these factors / take a look at this stuff while it's out of the car? I can try to go check but I'm almost afraid i'll miss something, if necessary I can even have the car towed to someone elses shop... at this point, I'd just love to have someone look at it who clearly knows specifics like what you guys are alluding to in this thread...

Anyone interested or be able to help in that respect? Is that reasonable/feasible?

I'm just exhausted and losing a lot of money right now.

Much appreciated guys.


Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320506
December 16, 2009 11:00 pm UTC
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I'm always willing to help out a fellow DSM'er, but with holidays around the corner and this busy season, I have no time to even work on my POS smile . The same might apply to other knowledgable members here, though I don't really know everyones schedule. Tis that busy season, well atleast for me....

Like I mentioned, I don't know how well it would run with the mechanics at the shop to have one of us come in with you and inspect the car. Defeats the purpose of the mechanic.

Nice pictures Jeff. I'm surprised the 2g pedal can even break in that fashion. Would definately be something to look into.


1G DSM: 1000+ AWHP, 9.2@162.83 MPH
Evo X: 746 AWHP, XR9569S pump gas
www.dynotuneracing.com



Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Reza Mirza] #320507
December 16, 2009 11:17 pm UTC
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Definitely fair, ignore that request via pm then haha, do answer the other questions though lol.

I guess my final question remains:

If the clutch shows no signs of problems and neither does the trans... do I

a) put them back in, problematic as ever, and pray to god it's a pedal adjustment issue?
b) replace one/two components and hope for the best?

I just don't understand how this cannot be properly diagnosed by two different mechanics thus far at two different shops.

Thanks guys.


Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320508
December 16, 2009 11:26 pm UTC
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Personally I think they should only have removed the transmission if they already determined that the problem is not between the pedal and the clutch fork. By then they should have seen that the geometry is wrong and fix the pivot/fork. Since they are scratching their heads now you have to ask "why did you remove the transmission, then?"

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Rob Strelecki] #320560
December 17, 2009 02:51 pm UTC
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Okay. I will see if I can can get a ride to the shop today or tomorrow to examine these factors.

If I do find these to be the issue, i'm going to have the car moved again, is there anyone who can recommend a different shop that's also good w/ dsms?

Metalex is out of business apparently, magnus has bad reviews now, ultimate racing is a bit far...

suggestions welcome, i really need to get this back on the road assp.

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320602
December 17, 2009 11:08 pm UTC
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Isn't the tranny already out?

Buy a new Pivot Ball, new Fork, send the clutch to Bully to be checked and re-furbed if necessary.

Pivot Ball - $13
Fork - $85
Shipping to/from Bully - $50
Clutch/Pressure plate re-furb if necessary $100-$150
Put the tranny back in.
Done.

If it still doesn't work then the wrong parts are on the car somewhere.

So what car is it anyway? We never did figure that out. A 2.0NA FWD converted to a Turbo AWD?

The master cylinders are different between the 2WD NA and 2WD Turbo. Was the master cylinder replaced with the NA version or the turbo version?

Last edited by Tashko Sarakinov; December 17, 2009 11:09 pm UTC.
Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Tashko Sarakinov] #320605
December 17, 2009 11:23 pm UTC
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...oh, and I don't appreciate the implication that the mechanic I recommended doesn't know DSM's when mine is over 400k and he's the mechanic that does any work to it if needed. I've never had to tow my car to a shop, never had it leave me stranded on the road in 12yrs of ownership, except for those pesky alt. failures when I didn't have the heatshield.

whistle

Considering that the shift cables(!), slave and master cylinders where changed, where else would you look but drop the tranny to see what's happening with the fork and clutch.

I just spoke with Yoshio and both the ball and fork are slightly worn but the clutch is still releasing. Part of the clutch has some scoring. I'm not going to speak for him, but since he warranties his work for 1yr I'm sure he doesn't want to tell you that changing the ball and fork will fix the problem when the clutch is releasing! He'd have to cover the cost of dropping the tranny again. Could be the combination of worn ball, fork, and whatever happened to the clutch.

<sigh>

...from now on I'll keep to myself and let people sort their own sh!t out.

Last edited by Tashko Sarakinov; December 17, 2009 11:24 pm UTC.
Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Tashko Sarakinov] #320612
December 18, 2009 12:01 am UTC
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Just to be clear, in my previous post I was not trying to imply that the mechanic does not know DSMs. I was trying to provoke thoughts & questions that might lead to finding the problem.

It's obvious there is some confusion and/or communication break-down because the information I'm reading here doesn't make sense!
e.g. "I don't know what the problem is so we're gonna replace $2000 in parts and see if that fixes it."
Maybe the recommendation was actually for a new clutch, fork & ball - that makes perfect sense because if the transmission is on the floor the rest of the system should have checked out OK smile

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Rob Strelecki] #320653
December 18, 2009 04:14 am UTC
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Yes, the transmission is already out.

First off, the pivot ball and fork wear was described to me as minimal, not enough to cause the problem solely. Returning the clutch to bully was never perscribed as an option, replacing the entire clutch w/ flywheel machine was.

The recommendation was:

- Replace the entire clutch assembly.
- Machine flywheel.
- Replace the transmission.

Described to as a '50/50 chance it could be either'

If someone offers a warranty on their work, that's exceptional. However, because you offer a warranty does not mean that if you cannot for certain diagnose the problem, that you should replace all components concerning it as a blanket solution so you can offer me a 1 year warranty on the parts you instal that may not have been required in the first place... that is my only issue, and personally I think that's fair and reasonable.

If the problem could concretely be diagnosed again, the scenario would be different. I don't gamble thousands on 50/50, but hey that's just me.

So conclusively, this seems like the best bet

- Replace pivot and fork.
- Probably replace clutch including throw out bearing
- machine flywheel

Seems like the best bet.

Also, yes, it's a 2.0NA FWD front clip swap to 2.0 AWD Turbo.

Master Cylinder I believe was replaced with the turbo model, but i'll confirm tomorrow morning... would seem retarded if it were not, but i'll check.

Overall however, I appreciate his honesty in respect to telling me he was unable to, with certainty, figure out what the issue was. I think there's just been some bad communication and misunderstanding... I just want to understand exactly what the problem is regardless.


Last edited by Luke Wynter; December 18, 2009 04:21 am UTC.
Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320656
December 18, 2009 04:25 am UTC
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I agree that you probably should not need to replace the transmission, assuming it's only an engagement issue.

Replacing pivot & fork and making sure the clutch & flywheel are proper should fix your problem providing it is not the transmission.

So, I think that's why the suggestion to replace the transmission was made.
Now maybe you should have 50/50 odds if you don't replace the transmission. It's not cheap to have a shop do the re&re so I can understand their suggestion of getting everything done - but with that level of work I think it should be guaranteed 100% fixed.

2.0NA FWD master cyl is MB911650
2.0 AWD Turbo is MB910562
This information is from the Mitsu parts searching software "CAPS".

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Rob Strelecki] #320658
December 18, 2009 04:37 am UTC
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Thanks Rob, that's what I figured.

Yeah, I just checked the parts online and came up with the seperate #'s.

Now I guess the remaining question is, as crappy tire did the install of the master cylinder and the vin # is equal to the base model... would an incorrect master cylinder bolt on? I told them to get the turbo and the part # is not listed on their invoice actually... I'll check tomorrow.

And also, if the master was bad, would it not be noticeable / effect the hydraulic system working properly?




Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320660
December 18, 2009 04:41 am UTC
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No prob!

From the diagram it appears to bolt up the same but the rod and clevis are different. That could definitely affect the engagement. In fact, the rod appears shorter for the NT. The bore might be smaller too but I don't have that spec.

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Rob Strelecki] #320661
December 18, 2009 04:53 am UTC
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I'm really confused with this whole '2.0NA front clip swap to 2.0 AWD turbo' thing.

Can anyone enlighten me? 420a, 4g63? What drivetrain? Sounds like it started it's like with a 420a and currently has a 4g63? Maybe I just need to go to sleep?

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: EK] #320662
December 18, 2009 04:57 am UTC
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I'm guessing someone got the "front clip" (everything from the firewall forward) and made it work.
That would get you all the parts that make the swap so elusive.

The rear end is another story...

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Rob Strelecki] #320663
December 18, 2009 04:57 am UTC
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Thank you. I will look into this in the morning... If this turns out to be the issue, I will be causing quite the scene in Dundas Canadian tire. I sincerely hope if it is the case they replace both the part and do the labor free of charge.

EDIT: Rob is correct. It appears entirely as a stock model, but everything from the firewall minus the front bumper (which is eagle) is mitsu 4G63T and repainted original red. It is quite allusive, minus the sound of the blow off valve and exhaust haha... and the guages etc.

Last edited by Luke Wynter; December 18, 2009 04:59 am UTC.
Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320664
December 18, 2009 05:04 am UTC
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Also it doesn't matter if that front clip was AWD or FWD turbo, they are the same master cyl part.

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Rob Strelecki] #320665
December 18, 2009 05:14 am UTC
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Yep haha, that was where my confusion was at first, but it's actually just the turbo engine in its self which apparently requires an entirely different master cylinder... I'll update tomorrow after harassing crappy tire. Thanks again guys.

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320675
December 18, 2009 09:23 am UTC
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Don't want to sound like a naysayer here but "changing a front clip" doesn't somehow cause the drivetrain to osmose itself into AWD. Not that this would cause a clutch not to operate either, but something sounds off here.

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Paul Bratina] #320678
December 18, 2009 01:14 pm UTC
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The drivetrain was changed as well, don't ask me specifically how, but he did that as well. Put it on the hoist engage the gear hit the gas... all 4 wheels spin. It's AWD, I am still trying to get build specifics, but as mentioned earlier the place that did the job has relocated and apparently changed the name. Once the car is back on the road I will drive to bolton and find them manually.

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Paul Bratina] #320680
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Originally Posted by Paul Bratina
Don't want to sound like a naysayer here but "changing a front clip" doesn't somehow cause the drivetrain to osmose itself into AWD. Not that this would cause a clutch not to operate either, but something sounds off here.


Thanks for saying exactly what was going on in my head. I didnt want to continue nagging, but this whole thread stopped making sense with that whole 'front clip AWD' thing.

Luke, are you sure there was an AWD swap? Or did the car start out it's life as AWD anyway? (Doesn't sound crazy to me). If you can take a look at your gauge cluster for me, and let me know what you see in the bottom left and bottom right gauges, that would ease my confusion. A turbo model will have 2 gauges in each corner, a non turbo would only have one.

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: EK] #320681
December 18, 2009 02:29 pm UTC
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Vin # pulls as a red chrysler talon ESI model. I'll double check the guages when I see the car, I only had it for 1 1/2 weeks and didn't pay particular attention to the guages...

What are the extras that appear on the turbo? (on both sides).

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320682
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UPDATE:

Canadian tire originally told me they replaced with dealer part... Turns out they didn't.

They put a wagner/aftermarket/mastermotor whatever cylinder PART #F131451 (which you can pull off of rockauto) and (KAR)57594 into the car. This particular part I can find *nothing* on... Kars (the supplier who they got the part from) I just got off the phone with and they say it's the same Cylinder, obviously, it isn't....

Not only was the WRONG cylinder supplied to me, but it wasn't an OEM part.

Called the dealer, they confirmed part # differences, called Canadian tire.... and now they want me to bring the car back, they'll replace with OEM dealer part for the turbo engine and do the labor free of charge. Which as far as I am concerned is an admission of guilt, thoughts?

Problem is however, my car is far away @ cluch/trans is dropped out.

I basically am wondering if using this part was the reason my clutch will not engage/disengage.... and the reason why Yoshio was unable to find anything particularly wrong with the assembly. I suppose the cylinder must appear to be almost physically identical in order to not see it was different?

So the question is now...

1) Do I have yoshio put everything back together, replace the bearing and fork, machine flywheel... have it towed back to canadian tire and have them do the master cylinder with the right part and hope for the best?

2) Send the car there sans the trans/clutch installed and have them replace the master cylinder, ship it back to yoshio and go from there?

The cylinder could not be confirmed to be working properly however without the clutch in use, no?

Thanks again, what a nightmare.

Last edited by Luke Wynter; December 18, 2009 02:51 pm UTC.
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ESi Gauge Cluster http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/3066/601/7662800009_large.jpg

TSi Gauge Cluster
http://www.mirage-performance.com/EclipseGSX/Misc/gaugeclusterbezel01.jpg

Not saying you're lying, it just blows my mind that someone would convert the ESi FWD to a TSi AWD. I'd say I'd do it to my ESi, but I already bought a TSi. wink

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: EK] #320685
December 18, 2009 03:04 pm UTC
December 18, 2009 03:04 pm UTC
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Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Luke Wynter Offline OP
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I think the guage cluster is TSI actually! Which makes this entire situation more confusing... gah, I will make it my mission to figure that out personally AFTER the car is drivable again lol.

Thoughts on my update? I have to move fast on this one lol.

EDIT: Mine mentions nothing about fuel on the guage, I clearly remember that.

Last edited by Luke Wynter; December 18, 2009 03:05 pm UTC.
Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320686
December 18, 2009 03:35 pm UTC
December 18, 2009 03:35 pm UTC
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EK Offline
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Not sure what to tell you on the advice bit, I mean, it's a possibility that the whole problem lies in the wrong master cylinder, but hopefully one of the more experienced members chimes in here. I'm still new to the mechanical side of things. Sorry.

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: EK] #320688
December 18, 2009 04:43 pm UTC
December 18, 2009 04:43 pm UTC
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Rob Strelecki Offline

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Assuming it's the wrong master in there and the rod is in fact shorter: They put it to the end of its adjustment and when that didn't work (and the pedal assy & slave being fine) the only thing left to do was dig deeper and pull the trans.

You are definitely between a rock and a hard place here, since CT will probably only want to re-do their work and the shop you're at now has their own ideas of how to get it working again.

I think you should try to get CT to refund your money and you just bring the incorrect master back to them.
Explain how their incompetence has got your car ripped apart at another shop and it's costing you more money even after the refund.

Have the current shop put it all back together with the refurb clutch & new fork/pivot. If the shop learns that the master was wrong, it might become obvious to them that is all that's needed to get it working again. A little peace of mind but don't expect a guarantee seeing as your car is "interesting".

Good luck!

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Rob Strelecki] #320694
December 18, 2009 05:42 pm UTC
December 18, 2009 05:42 pm UTC
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Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Luke Wynter Offline OP
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That is what I will do.

Refund Canadian Tire $.

Fork/pivot.
New correct master cylinder.

Should I bother with the clutch refurb if it looks pretty decent? And I should be good without a slave replace as well, yes? (Contradictory information on replacing both simontaneously).

I still need to machine the flywheel as well, correct? Sorry, just want to make sure I get everything right. Thanks guys.

EDIT: If it would be a good idea to replace the clutch components at this time, I will get the recommended ACT clutch... in which case the flywheel is only 150$ more than a machine would cost me, would this be a 'better' option?

Thanks again guys.

Last edited by Luke Wynter; December 18, 2009 05:54 pm UTC.
Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Rob Strelecki] #320696
December 18, 2009 05:52 pm UTC
December 18, 2009 05:52 pm UTC
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Jamie Valcamp Offline
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I'd agree with Rob. Have the current shop replace the pivot ball, fork and bearing as it's a good opportunity while it's out of the car. But, explain to them first that you have discovered the problem and that all the work they did could have been avoided if they discovered the hydraulic issue first. If done tactfully, they may give you a really good deal on the above work, then back to crappy for the proper master to be installed and hopefully you're good to go.


97 Eclipse GSX
Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320697
December 18, 2009 05:54 pm UTC
December 18, 2009 05:54 pm UTC
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Rob Strelecki Offline

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I'd at least have Bully take a look at the clutch, that's some relatively cheap peace of mind.

If the slave isn't leaking, it's fine (for now).

Do machine the flywheel to the step height that is recommended by Bully for your clutch.

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Rob Strelecki] #320699
December 18, 2009 06:07 pm UTC
December 18, 2009 06:07 pm UTC
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Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Luke Wynter Offline OP
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There's no deal haha, I think he's pretty upset/annoyed with me because I've 'made him wait 4 days' while I tried to figure this out on my own... but that's alright, I at least have the CT refund and the peace of mind that things are on there way to improving.

Turns out a guy I know who used to have a dsm will give me his in box act 2600 he never installed for 350$... so that's a steal, only 100-150$ more than sending my clutch to bully to be looked at... I'll get that as well considering i might as well do it now.

I guess as stated before, should I replace the flywheel with the ACT one vs machining it for a whole different clutch now all together?

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320704
December 18, 2009 06:32 pm UTC
December 18, 2009 06:32 pm UTC
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Ajax, ON
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I would get the ACT flywheel, its a nice piece. I know Ziggy has these in stock for a decent price.


1G DSM: 1000+ AWHP, 9.2@162.83 MPH
Evo X: 746 AWHP, XR9569S pump gas
www.dynotuneracing.com



Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Reza Mirza] #320707
December 18, 2009 07:15 pm UTC
December 18, 2009 07:15 pm UTC
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Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Luke Wynter Offline OP
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Alrighty then, is there an easy way or a standard way to see if I have a 6g or 7g engine? Sorry if that's a noob question too, iPhone.

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320708
December 18, 2009 07:28 pm UTC
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Rob Strelecki Offline

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You mean there's no app for that? bah
Just look at the flywheel or the crank, count the bolt holes.

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Rob Strelecki] #320756
December 19, 2009 05:37 pm UTC
December 19, 2009 05:37 pm UTC
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Luke Wynter Offline OP
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Thank you. I'll do that smile. Car won't be good to go until the 28th, goodbye christmas haha... hopefully everything else goes smoothly however.

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320764
December 19, 2009 09:30 pm UTC
December 19, 2009 09:30 pm UTC
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Tashko Sarakinov Offline
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I was there today. It's a 7-bolt. Clutch looks fine, plenty of meat left. There's one part where on the outer edge it looks like it overlaps with the recessed pressure plate bolts and is wearing differently, which is what Yoshio was concerned about.

It's definately a FWD converted to AWD.

Last edited by Tashko Sarakinov; December 19, 2009 09:30 pm UTC.
Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Tashko Sarakinov] #320807
December 21, 2009 12:10 am UTC
December 21, 2009 12:10 am UTC
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Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Luke Wynter Offline OP
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Thank you for that!

Also, what would cause that sort of edge wear in one particular edge vs all around?

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Luke Wynter] #320811
December 21, 2009 12:57 am UTC
December 21, 2009 12:57 am UTC
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Tashko Sarakinov Offline
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Here's the couple of pics I took.

Front propeller shaft mount bracket:
[Linked Image]
The front floor pan looks to be common between FWD and AWD since the mount is already there.

Rear propeller shaft mount bracket:
[Linked Image]
New rear mount needed to be added.

Clutch:
[Linked Image]

The clutch has some different wear on the outer edge where it over-laps the bolt recess. As the clutch engages/dis-engages the edge of the recess scuffs up the outer edge.

Re: Urgent help needed - dsm mechanic / shop [Re: Tashko Sarakinov] #321248
December 30, 2009 04:53 pm UTC
December 30, 2009 04:53 pm UTC
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Ontario
Malcolm Harris Offline
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And the verdict on this is...........

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