Being a mechanical engineer and not having much to do this winter I decided to design custom lower control arms for 2G's. I spent 3 months using suspension modelling software to analyze the 2g suspension and develop my revised version. Now I'm ready to start making them and wondered if anyone else was interested or had any comments.

Specs:
-All ball joint locations are now REPLACABLE rather than stock ones where the ball joint goes and you have to replace the arms.
-Front lower arm 7075 aluminum (pretty much the strongest aluminum alloy commercially available) with racing grade NMB ABWT spherical bearing replacing the ball joint
-Front pivot is 0.75" lower on the spindle to correct geometry for lowered vehicles (brings roll centre back up)and improves the camber curve.
-Front pivot location is moved out a bit to give 2 degrees of static camber and slightly more track width.
-Rear arm is 6061 with spherical bearing replacing ball joint.
-rear arm pivot is moved out and down to correct the scrub radius for wider rims and tires. Also gives slightly more anti-dive geometry options.
-Anti-dive% is adjustable using revised frame side mounting of rear arm
-Rear lower arm is now adjustable in length (using shims) which allows you to fool around with caster and dive
-can be made with spherical bearings at any/all joints as desired.
-both arms design to standard 3-2-1 G loading with substantial safety factor for fatigue.
-drops quite a bit of unsprung weight
-both arms mount in a revised yoke mount system for more strength and rigidity at the spindle
-I'll also be making upper control arms in the near future that have proper shimmable camber adjustment, no BS adjustable ball joints or pivots, if anyone is interested in them. They won't be cheap since there is a lot a material in them.
-Will only clear 17" and larger rims (otherwise mitsubishi might have done this to start with)

Cost wise, basically for a set of one offs it will cost me around $900 for material and hardware for a complete set (front and rear lowers, both sides). That's with all new ball joints/bushings. If I have 1 or 2 more sets to build I can start to get the material and shipping costs down and save a bit. I'm not doing this to make money, just to reduce the material cost for my set . You're basically gettting the design and fabrication time for free. For reference a new set of OEM arms with non-replacable ball joints is over $500 with tax. The SPC upper arms were around $300 each and they had garbage ball joints on them.

It's a lot of coin so I'm not expecting anyone to bite but thought I would offer.

oh, and just to show you how much of a deal you're getting RTM racing (I love you ziggy) sells a set of just the lower control arm modified for spherical bearings for $440 (and that is a good price)! and when the ball joints go you have to buy a new set! Bam!

Bradley,

I know 7075 is a LOT more expensive than 6061, but if I can help get material costs down by buying through my contacts, let me know what you need and I will see what I can do. (Unless you are already getting a good deal through your employer?). I am sure I could beat Metal Supermarket pricing...

I bet you'd have a bunch more interest on Tuners and Link forums. Most of the 'big spenders' I can think of offhand on this forum are running 1Gs.

Perhaps PM Scott Mcintyre (Sp?)...I know he tracks his 2G and these might be of interest to him.

thanks Ziggy, I've actually had a contact from someone on the board who is going to help me out (I lover DSMers). I would have ordered material through my employer, but our discount doesn't really start to add up until you start ordering lengths of bar stock rather than 3ft at a time. Still half the cost of metal supermarkets though. A length of 2x2 7075 T651 is a pretty big financial commitment! The real waste in the project though is shipping. Splitting shipping costs for all of the hardware (and delivery for aluminum) makes a big difference.

I want to keep this local until I have some testing completed. That way if I want to tweak something here or there it's no biggy. After that CA DSM might be the only supplier of complete aluminum control arms for 2G's. Take that Tuners!

Stay tunned I'll update more as this comes together.

This is way beyond me, but I get what you're getting at.

Awesome!

All the custom stuff these days is 2G-focused...we need some 1G love!

Can't wait to see a completed set of these and the following results

Giddy up

Do you have a render of the part? I told myself no more performance parts after i finish the car. Suspension isn't performance Keep this updated.

Suspension is very much so performance, A good suspension will drasticly cut E/T's and 1/4 mile times.

I don't want to make any promises. But it should be a noticable improvement performance wise. I'm super excited. It's amazing how complicated suspension design is. I have the benefit that I don't have all of the constraints mitsubishi did, and it is still a delicate balance. When you first get into it you're like, oh yeah if I just move this down I get a better camber curve, and then BAM bump curve goes nuts and steer forces start to get out of hand. There is NO right answer, just different answers and wrong answers.

I'm working on polishing off the models and getting them ready for the CNC machine. Target is 1-2 weeks to have finished drawings and models.

I'm not building a drag car I know what you're saying but this is how i can justify my purchases.

Well in that case it would greatly cut costs in replacement parts and serve you much better then stock.

Not looking to spend the money on something like this yet but I'm keeping my eyes on this to see the outcome.

I would be interested in the weight savings and ability to replace the ball joints when needed. Keeping an eye on this thread

ditto

DONT ASK ME TO MAKE ANY, DONT EVEN MESSAGE ME ABOUT IT PLEASE. These are Brads, its his design. Im just making him and myself a set. You will have to deal with Brad about another source for manufacturing once he tests and approves the design.

Anyways, now that the disclaimer is there, here is the progress. Just a tease........

I give you op 1 of the lateral arms.

Yokes are done, I'll post them up later.

Right click, view image

Man I'm so stoked. Rob is totally the man. This is why I love DSM's, yeah they can be a pain sometimes, but we always seem to find a way to push new boundaries. You don't see stuff like this on honda forums!

I think I need to see a doctor or something. The mere mention of the word "Honda" makes me want to torture whatever living organism happens to be within easy reach at that particular moment. And if none are handy, I'll strangle non-living objects.

Brad, if you are looking for someone to do a production run of these once you are satisfied with the design, I would be interested both in manufacturing for you and selling them through RTM Racing with some sort of royaty arrangement. Not sure there would be a HUGE market, I don't think either of us will get rich from this....but would be interested in discussing it with you if you would like.

1st make sure they work as intended...and don't kill me. Suspension simulation isn't perfect, nor am I[though pretty damn close:)].

2nd figure out how to make them available at a cost people can afford. I'm open to all sorts of options when that time comes, just don't want any cart-horse inversions.

3rd front upper A-arms and complete rear suspension, OK maybe that is looking a little too far forward.

Sounds like a couple weeks and Rob will be done the first set. I've got 3 races in may so straight into the firing line!

Holding one in my hand even semi finished, I can say they are simply bad ass. I'm proud to be the one making the prototypes

That is intense.
You see threads like this all over tuners.... none even show real diagrams, not to mention making a real set.

hats off for having a set designed and made. they look badass like rob said...

Just make sure you get a patent on them before you start selling them to the public. Also don't disclose any real specifications on a public forum, or else you won't be eligible to patent the design.

Good job and good luck!

I am guessing it would cost more to patent them than what you are ever going to make on them, plus patents are too easy to get around. As far as I know, you just need to make some kind of an improvement, or any change for that matter, and you are good to go.

The cost of DEFENDING a patent would also end up ridiculous.

Yokes. (waiting for a tap to finish the threaded hole)

It's starting to come together.

Yeah, patents are only useful if you have the cash to fight it in court. Apple and Microsoft spend 10's of millions each year fighting patents.

I even got the CMM inspector at work interested in this project. He helped out with a rediculous accurate reading of this angle. Four decimal places.........Whaaaaat? Lol

Meh, I eyeballed 7.

Good one Beavis

Heres some more pics to enjoy

Very close to being finished. All thats left is a few finishing ops, and all the standoffs, pins etc.....I think Im gonna let Brad make those. I need a weekend off

Oh Sh!t. Rob you're faster than the bearings, they still frigging aren't here (there was a stocking problem and Baker has been screwing me around). I have the urethane and other bits from mcmaster-carr. I'm heat treating the king pin material hopefully this week (I have a friend with a furnace).

Those are going to look SOOO good bolted up! (not that they dont just sitting there)

Should weigh them see how much weight is cut.

Nice art work! Cant wait to see final product on the car!

Those are so damn beautiful.

They look like Transformer parts. lol


Transform!!!

I'm having them powder coated satin black as we speak to avoid corrosion because 7075 likes to turn all kinds of ugly real fast. Curtousy of mike at Brightside

Also to be honest I don't think there is any real weight savings at all.

It's too bad they can't be put on the car like that.

So shiny.

Should be able to clear coat them but with what Ive seen from Mike I am thinking his colors add even more beauty to them!

Who's gonna see them guys? The vermin brad is heading for on the track running for their lives, that's who

Besides I scuffed a few places up already, the black is an improvement

Ya, weight is pretty much the same, a bit lighter overall, but much stiffer. I originally had them a bit lighter, but I decided I'd rather have the stiffness so I added material back in.

When you see them next to OEM it's makes OEM look like spaghetti.

Ain't that the truth. I'll post some comparison pics.

I like many others are glued to this to see just what happens when they go on the car. I think that if they turn out decent I might be in for a set just not this season funds are low and I have a head I still need to get

Bam!

Brad, These things are awesome!

We need to collaborate on some 1g design work!

Man guys, calm down until we make sure they fit and work and such. And Mike, let me get my car on the road, then I can take on a new project! They do look sick though.

Looks like you did a good job with masking, that will make my life much easier! Guess I know what I'll be doing this coming week.

P.S. Mike, I love your sig.

What did one mechanical engineer say to the other?

Lets design a tool to make a square hole instead of designing the hole round








OEM VS Brad

Looks really good guys!!

I do have a question though, the first hole on the left side of the new one is so much smaller than the oem hole, why is that?

Whenever Brad, when it comes to my talon there is no due dates. Now lets see some install pictures.

Because spherical bearings don't need big holes like rubber bushings.

I thought Rob would reply with something like "who doesn't like a small hole?"

They are out of my hands, Its now on Brad to update us with his progress.

I promised him Id be at the first race he attends with these arms. Should be interesting to say the least.

Got one side worth of king pins done tonight. Received bearings today so I was able to machine to suit the shafts. Test fit the bearing block on the car with pins and it all seems like it fits nicely.

Bushings and boring out the arms to fit the bearings hopefully tomorrow (pending wife approval!) then I can fit up one side complete.

I'm a pretty poor machinist and I'm doing it all manually so it will take a couple of days to burn through this stuff. Takes extra time for design changes when I screw up on the lathe:)

Cheers.

I have one side mostly done, other than a bushing and it all seems to fit up fine. Only problem is I have a tripple header end of may and am spending almost a week at the cottage between now and then so, though I'll have enough time to finish everything by then, I won't have time to set it up and tune it before I drive 5 hours away from my shop for 3 straight days of racing. I'd rather do initial testing/tuning close to home.

So... I've decided to throw OEM arms on it this week so I can get my car running properly in the short term then I can finish the rest of the bits for the other side without rushing.

Anyone have a front lower control arm I can borrow for a couple of weeks? I destroyed one of mine for testing.

Just wanted to say good work!!!! I will be grabbing the full setup off u in the near future!!

How bout an update slacker? How was your race weekend a few weeks back?

Race was this weekend. I'll post in race report. SHould be bolting it up this week. Sorta glad I have this already worked out since I nuked my stock arms at shannonville. Sort of scary to drive right now.

OK, sorry for the delay but I have fully installed the driver side set. Did a quick alignment and took it for a test drive. Feels really solid. Won't be able to tell for sure until I get the other side installed and take it to an autox but first impression is that life is good.

Right now I should have around 3.5 degrees of camber on that side (2 from the new arms, 1.5 from ingalls offset upper a-arm mounts). That will probably be a little much for the street (I'm thinking I'll aim for 2.5) but man does it turn in right now, plus it looks bad a$$. Also the new arms make the front sit about 1 1/2" lower (with stock suspension and full suspension travel) which also helps.

Everything fit up fine, had to shorten the 2 kingpins (removed extra material not used by some bottom nuts) to give what I consider adequate clearance to the rim. Also had trouble with getting the right bolts (Socket heads, which are 12.9, don't clear the axle boot so had to find hex heads, which are hard to get in decent strengths) Tested lock to lock and some good quick turns. No binding or weird noises.

I have renewed enthusiasm. Have some small changes to make from what I learned for the passenger side. Hopefully by this weekend...if my wheels don't fall off before that;)

Bradley, there's some guys on Tuners that might be interested in this, Paul Volk (99GSTRacer), Greengoblin, etc.

Post in the Custom Fab forum.

I can't wait to see the results of this.

OK, had first autoX on the new arms today. Crazy hot but I was competitive with top 10 all day. Ended up 14th out of 90 odd competitors, but duffed my last run so I was right in it. In terms of suspension here is what I have to report:

-Wheels stayed on so that is good.
-I need a little more cleanance since my R-compounds are on rims with just slightly small internal diameter. I had one of my king pin nuts rub the inside of the wheel when I was full locked going sideways. Easy fix.
-Turn in is rediculous, I made a lot of corners I never would have thought I could just simply due to that improvement. Knock on effect was that transitions (i.e. slalom) speeds were also better.
-I'm on stock suspension and the arms lower the front end. Until I get coil overs I can't lower the rear which is not great for balance. It also means I am into parts of the suspension performance curves that I didn't really design around due to lack of spring stiffness.
-The new arms significantly increase the effective front roll stiffness, while the rear has stayed the same. I don't have adjustable dampers so I can only use tire pressure to rebalance it. I noticed that I could turn in fast, carry more speed, but ultimately push at the apex. No where near as bad as stock but I spent a lot of effort getting it neutral originally. I'd like to move more stiffness back to the rear with spring rate. I think I also may have dialed in too much caster (is there such a thing?) which gives me too much camber (wtf?) mid corner.
-On the highway it is a little less planted. I chalk this up to the reduced scrub radius. I think I'll make some adjustments to bring some back and take a little bit of caster out at the same time. SHould help to rebalance things with minimal compromise.
-On the whole net benefit but with some tuning (and if necessary remaking the knuckle mount...ROb!)I think I can get much more benefit, so needs more cooking before I release the design for mass consumption. One of the great things is I can actually make adjustments now to achieve my goals..Yay!

Send me the models, I'll make them ASAP. New job Monday. Boss encourages me to use machinery. Brand new five axis in an air conditioned shop.

Let's rock. Fix that design ASAP. I want my arms sooner than later. Thanks mr lab rat

Also If I give u cad for an evo 8 enkei, can u plug that into your suspension software and check for clearance issues?

sure can.

Thumbs up is all I can say

Just a quicky update. Last 2 races have been raining, so can't really gauge where I am. I've been fiddling with camber and toe and now I'm going to start dialing in castor. I still haven't put in the revII revised geometry as I want to get a really good understanding of where I am before round 2 starts. I wish I had an alignment machine in my garage.

My set-up was wicked in the wet though! Had a couple of full on 4 wheel drifts through gates and was top three until it started to dry up a little and then people with better tires just destroyed me:( My times in the rain were faster than my times in the semi-wet/dry...go figure.

Oh, and nothing has busted yet!

Bradley, I think I want some! When developement is complete
In no hurry, and spending too much elsewhere currently

Another update. Had another race on saturday. I made some adjustments (added castor primarily...can YOU do that;)) and BAM. By a wide margin the best the car has ever handled. I'm pretty sure it is the best handling DSM on OEM shocks and springs! Major improvements in mid corner and exit grip. I found myself having to tell myself to push it harder. I actually hugged my car after my second run, we had a moment, it was great.

The castor also helped with high speed stability that I was chasing.

I'm going to see if I can any more castor out of it for kicks and then call it a day...and work on getting a true north racing style coil over set-up to take it to the next level. Oh, and my second child is scheduled to be born in the next couple of weeks. Basically I'd like one or two more autoX and a track day before I declare total victory but things are looking very promising.

When can we buy some !! ?

So here is the problem Mike. At the moment there are a lot of pieces and it would be really expensive. Even if I got 100 sets made in china it would still cost me around $700 or more a set so they would have to sell for more than that to cover the risk involved. To give you an idea, the aluminum for the arms cost $300 and the spherical bearings cost $250. Realistically if someone like Ziggy were to sell them he'd have to charge like $1200 and still not make much margin. DSMer's are way to cheap for that.

Basically part of the design uses a yoke to relocate the suspension pivots on the upright inorder to move the imaginary pivot around and do some fancy fancy. I also designed it this way for peace of mind, yokes are much stronger than cantilevered ball joints, that is why race cars typically yoke their heim joints (but OEM uses cantilevered ball joints so I'm just being conservative) This creates a lot of parts and cost. I think I may have a way to get rid of some of the complexity but I'm not sure how much it will compromise the performance. It would still maintain castor adjustability and lower the car without screwing up your geometry while lengthening the lower arms, maintaining spring travel, and improveing the camber curve and that is 90% of the benefit. The other 10% is much more complicated and requires the pivot relocation. It is possible that the 10% is actually only 1 or 2% and it makes very little difference except in my head.


If I can get to it before baby arrives i will try to test some of this out. Makes me sad thinking about taking it apart since it took me so long to get it near perfect!

Oh and roundabouts are so much more fun now!

Bradley, keep in mind that I have manufacturing capability as well. I currently don't do 3d machining, but I am sure Rob C. would help with 3d programming and setting up my machine for "drip feed" if it were to come to pass, or could the part be simplified a little to machine with standard 2 1/2 axis programming? I might not be quite as cheap as China, but don't require the runs be as huge, and saves a lot of shipping cost. I MIGHT also be able to do better on material cost. We have enough on our plate at the moment, but food for thought...

no rush but I d have no problem paying what its worth in the future. doesnt have to be anytime soon. But Im starting the process of turning my car into a race car (road legal race car)I wana own porsches hahah

Any pics of these on a car yet? Update!!!!

Any updates on these?
I don't need them just yet but it would be nice to know if they were available.

I'm just getting ready to drop in a set of FNR style Koni & GC springs and drop the car. Hopefully be complete this week. I'll take some more pics while I am in there. I'm also adding some more castor while I am at it.

After a close inspection after a year of autocross everything seems to be holding up great. I've made a couple of tweaks along the way to get more wheel clearance and make it easier to assemble/disassemble. At the beginning of the season everything fit fine, but as I dialed it all in cornering forces went up and I got some rubbing. The extra camber and caster (plus some improvement in driving skill) resulted in me taking off about 1-1.5 seconds over the year before and being a lot better to drive.

I think my long term plan is to keep the same concept but redesign around tubular/welded steel components. The aluminum is just way too expensive. I also have a track day beginning of june where I can test to make sure everything holds together and make sure everything is good at higher speeds stability wise.

Is Brad still alive or did these arms kill him ? Bringing this thread back from the dead!! People still would love these including me...