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Fuel Pump Hissing? #439258
April 19, 2015 04:10 pm UTC
April 19, 2015 04:10 pm UTC
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Chris Browning Offline OP
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Hey guys,

I just put the car back on the road and I'm noticing a hissing noise coming from the rear of the car which sounds like it could be the fuel pump. It sounds exactly like air being let out of a tire. I searched some other forums and most answers point to the fuel pump but I can't seem to figure out if this is normal operation or an indication that it's on it's way out. The pump is a Walbro 255 with stock wiring, I've been having problems getting the car to cold start over the past two seasons and I'm wondering if a new pump would fix this. Is there anyway to test that the pump is still working 100%? Let me know your thoughts.

Thanks.

Last edited by Chris Browning; April 19, 2015 04:11 pm UTC.

1995 Talon TSi AWD
Evo III 16G / FIC 850's / Walbro 255 / RTM FMIC / ECMLink V3
Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439264
April 19, 2015 06:52 pm UTC
April 19, 2015 06:52 pm UTC
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Bryan Lawrence Offline
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You sure your tank is sealed? If you open your gas door after driving for a while you should hear a hiss and feel it sucking in air.


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Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439269
April 19, 2015 07:51 pm UTC
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Ya when I go to fill up there is always vacuum in the tank.


1995 Talon TSi AWD
Evo III 16G / FIC 850's / Walbro 255 / RTM FMIC / ECMLink V3
Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439278
April 20, 2015 02:52 am UTC
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Just power on the pump (link or ignition on, not running) and pop the rear seat off for a closer look.



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'03 CBR 600RR
Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439320
April 21, 2015 06:11 pm UTC
April 21, 2015 06:11 pm UTC
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Could be a leaking fitting inside the tank. It would make a spraying type noise.


95GSX:6 Bolt-E316G/Mani-LinkV3 w/SD-680's-FMIC-Aeromotive FPR-255HP-MBC-Fidanza FW-ACT 2100
Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439324
April 21, 2015 07:33 pm UTC
April 21, 2015 07:33 pm UTC
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Especially with a 2g sending unit. Me and those o rings don't get along.


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Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439325
April 21, 2015 10:24 pm UTC
April 21, 2015 10:24 pm UTC
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How far up in the tank does the o-ring sit? I'm thinking if the sound is there with a low tank and not there with a full tank (the leak is submerged) you guys might have the answer, I just filled up so let me go listen now to see if the sound is still there.


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Evo III 16G / FIC 850's / Walbro 255 / RTM FMIC / ECMLink V3
Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439326
April 21, 2015 10:47 pm UTC
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It sits between the fuel pump and the sending unit right up near the top of the tank.


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Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439327
April 21, 2015 11:02 pm UTC
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The whirring is still there but I guess that doesn't mean anything, I popped the seat and cover off and took a video for you guys while the car is idling. You can hear the speed of the pump drop a few times during the video, this corresponds to a small drop in engine rpm, is this normal?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApiVDtBH7lI&feature=youtu.be

I should also mention the pump has no problem supporting my PTE 880 injectors at 80%+ duty cycle, the car is just very hard to start when cold and the idle is a little rough, I've always attributed that to my HKS 272 cams though.


Last edited by Chris Browning; April 21, 2015 11:04 pm UTC.

1995 Talon TSi AWD
Evo III 16G / FIC 850's / Walbro 255 / RTM FMIC / ECMLink V3
Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439329
April 21, 2015 11:05 pm UTC
April 21, 2015 11:05 pm UTC
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That's a pretty nasty looking kink.

It sounds like the pump itself is shitting the bed.


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'03 CBR 600RR
Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439330
April 21, 2015 11:07 pm UTC
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Do you have an AFPR?


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Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439331
April 21, 2015 11:08 pm UTC
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I do yes, its a Weapon R, Ebay type unit, It seems to function fine.

Here's my relevant mod list:

95 Tsi AWD
ECMLink
e316g
HKS 272/272
PTE 880
WeaponR AFPR
Walbro 255, stock wired
Injen Intake with K&N
FMIC
3" Turbo Back Exhaust with Cat
MTX-L Wideband
New Black ISC Motor

Last edited by Chris Browning; April 21, 2015 11:13 pm UTC.

1995 Talon TSi AWD
Evo III 16G / FIC 850's / Walbro 255 / RTM FMIC / ECMLink V3
Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439333
April 22, 2015 12:46 am UTC
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How soon after you shut the pump off does the fuel pressure drop?

If its the o-ring, then the pressure will fall very quickly.


1998 Eclipse GSX Spyder 11.5@124
AWD Talons: 1992, 1993, 1997, 1998

Team Big Turbo

PHP: 2
Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439334
April 22, 2015 12:53 am UTC
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It's falls to 20-25 psi within about 10
seconds then it contines to drop to zero over about half an hour I believe.

I've had someone crank the car while I watch the gauge and it instantly jumps to 40psi.

Last edited by Chris Browning; April 22, 2015 12:54 am UTC.

1995 Talon TSi AWD
Evo III 16G / FIC 850's / Walbro 255 / RTM FMIC / ECMLink V3
Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439367
April 23, 2015 12:22 am UTC
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I am not sure on your hissing sound. But your cold start issues sounds like a bad FPR or check valve in pump. Try pinching off your return line to the tank and see if it maintains pressure after the key is turned off.

Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439368
April 23, 2015 12:58 am UTC
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I tried pinching the return line last season and the system will hold 40 psi for hours like that.


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Evo III 16G / FIC 850's / Walbro 255 / RTM FMIC / ECMLink V3
Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439376
April 23, 2015 02:53 am UTC
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Then you need a new FPR.

Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439384
April 23, 2015 09:51 am UTC
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I've read that it's pretty common to experience a fast bleed down with aftermarket AFPRs which is why I never replaced it, is that not true?


1995 Talon TSi AWD
Evo III 16G / FIC 850's / Walbro 255 / RTM FMIC / ECMLink V3
Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439385
April 23, 2015 10:25 am UTC
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Its most likely your cold start issue.

Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439386
April 23, 2015 11:10 am UTC
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Couldn't the diaphragm not be replaced? Instead of buying a whole new unit?


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Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439388
April 23, 2015 11:19 am UTC
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I don't have cold start issues and my fuel pressure drops faster than a lead balloon. How many cranks does it take Chris?


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Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439392
April 23, 2015 02:04 pm UTC
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Originally Posted by Chris Browning
I've read that it's pretty common to experience a fast bleed down with aftermarket AFPRs which is why I never replaced it, is that not true?


Unfortunately, it's also common to experience a fast bleed down when the AFPR is kaput. It should be easy enough to open it up and check the diaphragm. If it's fine, then while you're in there, you may want to lap the check ball into its seat a bit; this should help retain pressure.


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11.7@119 1.8 60' - Curse of the Bad Driver
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Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439393
April 23, 2015 02:12 pm UTC
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Well, it varies a lot, I'll try to explain in detail.

Sometimes (5% of the time) the car will start on the first crank, sometimes it can take cranking for 10 seconds at a time 10-12 times over the course of 15 minutes before it will start.

The only pattern that I've been able to consistently find is that the problems gets worse as the outside temperature goes up, my coolant temp sensor reads accurately in link. I've tried increasing my cranking fuel adj in link to combat this but I've increased this value in 10% increments up to an extra 100% fuel while cranking with no noticeable change.

The interesting thing is that the car will always start eventually, it has never left me stranded and often times after cranking 10 or 12 times I'll turn the key and it will catch instantly and fire right up, there seems to be no pattern as to when this will happen.

When it doesn't start I can often hear it attempting to catch on the first try. With my starter turning at about 200rpm I will see readings as high as 400rpm while logging meaning that the engine is firing but will not produce enough power to start itself. Sometimes however it wont try to catch at all on the first try and just turns over around 200rpm

If the car doesn't start my wideband will read from about 12:1 - 14:1, these readings didn't really change when I increased my cranking fuel adj by up to 100%. I would expect to see richer AFR's which indicates to me that the injectors are just not receiving enough fuel while cranking to start the engine, even with a bigger pulsewdith.

A new test that I've been performing is to put a 10A charger on the battery for about 15 minutes to generate a high surface charge in the 13V range, I haven't tried it enough times to confirm that this works every time but it seems that the extra juice will help the car start on the first try. My battery is moderately healthy and will hold 12.5-12.6V overnight, it has also been tested with an ammeter at 625CCA, it was originally rated for 700CCA. Now I realize that a new battery may help the situation but I don't think that's the underlying cause of the problem here. I've also considered an AGM battery which will put out about 12.8-13V to supply all systems with a bit of extra power.

I tried to decrease my plug gap from 0.28 to 0.24 this weekend in case my ignition system was weak thinking that the smaller gap would help to produce a stronger spark but this had no effect.

The car will start first time once its hot, an interesting symptom is that it revs to about 2500rpm when started hot which seems quite high, I'm not sure if this is related.

A list of things I've checked / done to try to fix this issue:
- Rebuilt starter
- New power and grounds cables to starter (0 gauge welding cable)
- Additional ground from manifold and alt to chassis (4 gauge)
- New black body ISC
- Swapped MAF
- Triple checked for vacuum and boost leaks
- New PCV valve and hose to manifold
- Checked coolant temperature sensor
- Tested coils for resistance
- Tested and swapped two power transistors for resistance
- Tested injector resistor pack
- Tested injector resistance
- Opened AFPR and inspected diaphragm
- Pinched return line as stated above, pressure holds, no
leaking injectors
- Fresh caps when ECU was socketed two seasons ago
- Installed new exhaust (not really relevant)
- Increased 10V deadtime value in link to add fuel while
cranking.

One question that comes to mind is could I be flooding the engine? I've pulled the plugs after cranking 3 or 4 times and they typically have fuel around the outer ring of the plug but not on the electrode itself, also I would think I'd see a big puff of black smoke and really rich afrs after it finally catches and I'm not seeing that so I kind of ruled it out.

So there ya go, there's more info floating around in my head and I'll continue to post whatever relevant details I can think of. If you guys can help me fix this car without dumping a ton of money into parts I would be really grateful. I'm fine with going out and dropping a couple hundred bucks on a part if we can confidently agree that its going to fix the problem I just don't want to throw money at it and hope for the best.


1995 Talon TSi AWD
Evo III 16G / FIC 850's / Walbro 255 / RTM FMIC / ECMLink V3
Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439394
April 23, 2015 02:21 pm UTC
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Jeremy, I've had the AFPR open before and visually it checked out. I'll throw my vacuum pump on it after work today to check if the diaphragm will hold vacuum.


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Evo III 16G / FIC 850's / Walbro 255 / RTM FMIC / ECMLink V3
Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439423
April 23, 2015 07:36 pm UTC
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Does the return line pinch test rule out the o-ring on the pump? I would assume passing this test means the pressure loss is through the return line which is separate from the pump and o-ring, is that correct? I'm just trying to rule things out here so I can perform as many important tests as possible this weekend.


1995 Talon TSi AWD
Evo III 16G / FIC 850's / Walbro 255 / RTM FMIC / ECMLink V3
Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439424
April 23, 2015 07:38 pm UTC
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That's correct, you would lose pressure if the o ring was no good when pinching the return.


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Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439425
April 23, 2015 07:45 pm UTC
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Great, I'm also going to rule out the pump itself (although I'm not going to rule out that it's receiving inadequate voltage while cranking). My logic behind this is that it feeds the car at WOT with no issues.

I'm also going to check for a strong blue spark while cranking the cold engine (plugs on the valve cover) and some starting fluid through the pcv hose into the manifold to confirm that it is indeed a fuel issue.

After that I think I'll have a better idea of the direction I need to go. Any other tests or ideas you guys can think of please let me know.


1995 Talon TSi AWD
Evo III 16G / FIC 850's / Walbro 255 / RTM FMIC / ECMLink V3
Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439426
April 23, 2015 08:01 pm UTC
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I don't recall how priming works on 2g but you can try turning the fuel pump on as soon as key as at on. That way you know it's not a fuel issue.

Can you try loggin the CTS and wiggle the wires. Mine read fine most of the time in link but was really hard start because of sh!t wires.


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Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439427
April 23, 2015 08:15 pm UTC
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I think you do that by leaving the fuel pump on box checked in link, I've tried running the pump in the past and it doesn't really help the issue.

Interesting to hear about your CTS, I'll give it a shot and see if the readings change when I wiggle the wires.


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Evo III 16G / FIC 850's / Walbro 255 / RTM FMIC / ECMLink V3
Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439471
April 27, 2015 01:33 am UTC
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So I did so more testing of the car this weekend and I think I've found the problem. While I was checking for spark (which was strong) I left the injector fuse in to confirm that all four injectors were delivering fuel while cranking. In cylinders 2 and 4 I could see a layer of moisture forming on the top of the piston after 7 or 8 seconds of cranking which looked like a normal spray but on cylinders 1 and 3 the fuel was running down the face of the piston in more of a thin stream. I've included some pictures below but they don't really do it justice, the streams of fuel were very obvious.

So it looks like I have two really clogged injectors which are delivering more of a drip of fuel than a spray. This explains my symptoms because the car is basically trying to start on two cylinders and it also explains why the car revs so high on hot starts because that pool of fuel is being burned off as soon as it catches causing the revs to climb.

So my options are to either have the injectors cleaned and flow tested at Eurodrive in Burlington or to order a whole new set. They check out for resistance so I assume that getting them cleaned is going to be just as effective as getting a new set unless there's something I don't know that you guys can fill me in on, let me know.

Cylinder 1

[Linked Image]

Cylinder 2

[Linked Image]

Cylinder 3

[Linked Image]

Cylinder 4

[Linked Image]

Last edited by Chris Browning; April 27, 2015 01:34 am UTC.

1995 Talon TSi AWD
Evo III 16G / FIC 850's / Walbro 255 / RTM FMIC / ECMLink V3
Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439472
April 27, 2015 01:35 am UTC
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I also took a video of the AFPR while cranking with the plugs out and the bleed down afterwards. There was a little bit of residual pressure at the beginning from cranking a few minutes before.

https://youtu.be/Gipm4kMXMB4


Last edited by Chris Browning; April 27, 2015 01:36 am UTC.

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Evo III 16G / FIC 850's / Walbro 255 / RTM FMIC / ECMLink V3
Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439478
April 27, 2015 02:13 pm UTC
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Mike Eng Offline
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What filter are you using?


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Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439480
April 27, 2015 02:18 pm UTC
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It's an OEM filter, I replaced it the summer before last so it has about 15,000km on it.


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Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439483
April 27, 2015 04:05 pm UTC
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Did you use Teflon tape on the fittings anywhere?


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Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439484
April 27, 2015 04:16 pm UTC
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Toronto, ON
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Chris Browning Offline OP
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No not on the filter, the only place that has Teflon on it in the fuel system is the adjustment screw on the AFPR.


1995 Talon TSi AWD
Evo III 16G / FIC 850's / Walbro 255 / RTM FMIC / ECMLink V3
Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439844
May 11, 2015 04:14 pm UTC
May 11, 2015 04:14 pm UTC
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Posts: 608
Toronto, ON
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Chris Browning Offline OP
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Hey guys,

I wanted to keep this thread updated. So I took the injectors for cleaning last weekend and two of them came back as no good, they were leaking and 13 rounds in the ultrasonic bath couldn't get them to stop. So I picked up a new OEM filter and set of FIC 850's from RTM and installed them on Sunday.

Awesome, the car started on the first try Monday-Thursday day and night. Come Friday morning though it took the old 5 or 6 cranks to get the car started and it's been like that since, extremely frustrating.

I had a really tough time this morning trying to get it started, I cranked it about 8 times over 25 minutes and could not get it to run. I tried a squirt of starting fluid in the manifold and 100% throttle while cranking and it caught instantly.

I'm going to be checking the following this weekend and will report back:

- Test AFPR by applying vacuum and shop air to the fitting with
the pump running to confirm it is operating correctly.
- Winding the AFPR all the way in to test if the pump is capable
of producing 75+ psi.
- New AGM battery
- Testing voltage at pump during cranking and performing a re-
wire if I see a large drop.
- Re-checking voltage being delivered to the injectors.
- Setting plug gap back to 0.028" from 0.024".

If anyone has a theory on why the new injectors and filter would fix the hard starting for four days and then stop I would love to hear it.


1995 Talon TSi AWD
Evo III 16G / FIC 850's / Walbro 255 / RTM FMIC / ECMLink V3
Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439848
May 11, 2015 10:57 pm UTC
May 11, 2015 10:57 pm UTC
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968
Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence Offline
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Caledon, Ontario, Canada
I would be opening up the filter and taking a look to see what's stuck in it. Could be you need to clean out your tank.
Also why did you go OEM again? Not sure if you will run into issue but if you stick it to 75+ it could also be the banjo fitting and not the fuel pump


"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD
"Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD
Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439849
May 11, 2015 11:08 pm UTC
May 11, 2015 11:08 pm UTC
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,669
Toronto, Ontario
Stephan Tanchak Offline
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If he is just on that 16g, the banjo fitting is not a restriction. I ran my hx35 to 32PSI with all OEM lines and fuel filter, including the banjo line and it never ran lean.


1998 Eclipse GSX Spyder 11.5@124
AWD Talons: 1992, 1993, 1997, 1998

Team Big Turbo

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Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439862
May 12, 2015 02:06 pm UTC
May 12, 2015 02:06 pm UTC
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Posts: 608
Toronto, ON
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Chris Browning Offline OP
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Well I tried something different this morning, I actually reduced Crankingfueladj in link by about 10% and the car stumbled a bit but started on the first attempt.

I don't know why but maybe it's actually been getting too much fuel this whole time that I've been trying to add fuel during cranking.

I'm going to pull another 5% across the board from Crankingfueladj and see what effect that has tomorrow morning. The only thing I can think of that would explain why the injectors were working for the first few days was that they were actually flowing slightly less when they were first running due to dust or something like that accumulating while they were on the shelf and that as they were ran they cleared out and started flowing slightly more which brought me right back to too rich of a mixture during cranking.

Oh I love DSM's so so much...


1995 Talon TSi AWD
Evo III 16G / FIC 850's / Walbro 255 / RTM FMIC / ECMLink V3
Re: Fuel Pump Hissing? [Re: Chris Browning] #439959
May 15, 2015 11:54 pm UTC
May 15, 2015 11:54 pm UTC
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,438
Kitchener Ontario
Stephen Richardson Offline
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Kitchener Ontario
Post a log Chris.


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