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installed meth and looking for advice #449415
June 24, 2016 10:06 pm UTC
June 24, 2016 10:06 pm UTC
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Charlottetown PEI
John MacPhail Offline OP
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Hi Guys: I have just installed a devils own meth kit to try to make a little more power on pump on the street.
I have it set with a hobbs switch to start at 13-14 psi with a .7 GPH nozzle turbo is @24 using 1G timing base map and evo8 stock fuel map for a start which i have changed a little. question I have is what AFR are should I be targeting with the meth spraying.
Thanks

1992 AWD Talon, MT, 6 bolt, Ebay 16G, @ 24 PSI, Evo 8 MAF, 3" DP, Cat delete,3" Exhaust AFX WB, Walbro 255 rewired, AFPR @43.5, FIC 950, FMIC 2.5" Pipe, 1G BOV, ECM Link V3, Meth 50/50 150psi .7GPH

Last edited by John MacPhail; June 24, 2016 10:08 pm UTC.

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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #449422
June 25, 2016 12:18 am UTC
June 25, 2016 12:18 am UTC
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Guelph, Ontario
Jeremy Gilbert Offline
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I'm guessing you mean a 7 GPH.

I run a single 10 GPH with 50/50 mix, and I run about 12.2-12.4:1 AFRs and she seems to like it. As always, you wanna run whatever the car seems to like most.

Aim for low-mid 11's first, then pull fuel from there and see what she likes.


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #449424
June 25, 2016 02:56 am UTC
June 25, 2016 02:56 am UTC
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Charlottetown PEI
John MacPhail Offline OP
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Hey Jeremy: yes 7 GPH nozzle in tb elbow, wow that seems lean as i have not used meth before. I gump tune for our 91, I will start in the 11's and see. thanks for the reply


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #449426
June 25, 2016 04:04 am UTC
June 25, 2016 04:04 am UTC
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I'm on 94 pump, probably should have mentioned that. And yeah it seemed lean to me at first as well; like I said, I gave the car what it wanted. After doing some reading though it actually seems about the same as other guys with a similar setup; remember that meth is a fuel itself.


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #449433
June 25, 2016 03:39 pm UTC
June 25, 2016 03:39 pm UTC
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Bryan Lawrence Offline
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I think even with meth and your boost turned up the 1g map is still really aggressive, then add the evo fuel map on top of that I would be careful.

I assume you have a tune from before meth went in?


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #449435
June 25, 2016 04:24 pm UTC
June 25, 2016 04:24 pm UTC
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Charlottetown PEI
John MacPhail Offline OP
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I have done a couple of pulls with this and not getting any knock with the meth. I do have 2 tunes from before meth went on a sloth tune for the street on 18 psi and one for the track on 22 psi when i add q16 to get some octane, 91 sucks


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #449438
June 25, 2016 06:28 pm UTC
June 25, 2016 06:28 pm UTC
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Stanstead, Quebec
Jason Drew Online content
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I tune mine around 11.5 on 93 or 94 with a 10gph nozzle.

One thing I will highly advise is using ecmlink to control it. Far easier tuning. Ecmlink will pull the global to adjust the fuel ratio automatically, no screwing around.


1997 Eclipse GST - AWD swapped - TPC - GT Spec powered
2023 - 9.63 - 145mph
Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #449460
June 27, 2016 03:51 pm UTC
June 27, 2016 03:51 pm UTC
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I use Map switching on my evo8 ecu.
I'm sure its the same idea with ecmlink.

I adjusted the global for fuel.
And just copied my timing maps, and ran a bunch of extra timing on the AltMap.

Pump turns on around 8psi with a 12 or 14 nozzle(I forget), maps switch, little red led turns on, and basically VTech and some wizard magic happens. AFR's are high 11's dips into the 12's occasionally.

I have also been told you can shoot for 12.5... but my balls haven't been big enough to attempt that yet.


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: Jeremy Gilbert] #449466
June 27, 2016 08:30 pm UTC
June 27, 2016 08:30 pm UTC
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Originally Posted by Jeremy Gilbert
I'm guessing you mean a 7 GPH.

I run a single 10 GPH with 50/50 mix, and I run about 12.2-12.4:1 AFRs and she seems to like it. As always, you wanna run whatever the car seems to like most.

Aim for low-mid 11's first, then pull fuel from there and see what she likes.


Wow, seems pretty lean, what kind of boost & timing are you running & on what turbo?

I run 94, think I have an M12 nozzle in there, 50/50, with their older pump (probably their first gen, not sure if its 100 or 150 psi, have had one of their new 250psi pumps sitting on the shelf for years....). If I go much leaner then 10.5:1, I start to knock (~10.5 at peak cylinder pressure & lean out to ~11:1 as the rpms increase), boost ~30psi.

Originally Posted by Jason Drew


One thing I will highly advise is using ecmlink to control it. Far easier tuning. Ecmlink will pull the global to adjust the fuel ratio automatically, no screwing around.


Haven't played with these Link settings for some time, have they changed options for how meth is controlled? Thought mine was setup so when the set point is triggered , it enables the secondary fuel map (& not actually altering the global)?

Last edited by Daren Peacock; June 27, 2016 08:42 pm UTC.

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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: Daren Peacock] #449478
June 28, 2016 01:16 pm UTC
June 28, 2016 01:16 pm UTC
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Originally Posted by Daren Peacock

Originally Posted by Jason Drew


One thing I will highly advise is using ecmlink to control it. Far easier tuning. Ecmlink will pull the global to adjust the fuel ratio automatically, no screwing around.


Haven't played with these Link settings for some time, have they changed options for how meth is controlled? Thought mine was setup so when the set point is triggered , it enables the secondary fuel map (& not actually altering the global)?


They've updated it a bit the last update, more ways to trigger, can enable secondarys or adjust the global and deadtime.


1997 Eclipse GST - AWD swapped - TPC - GT Spec powered
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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: Jason Drew] #449480
June 28, 2016 04:37 pm UTC
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Originally Posted by Jason Drew
Originally Posted by Daren Peacock

Originally Posted by Jason Drew


One thing I will highly advise is using ecmlink to control it. Far easier tuning. Ecmlink will pull the global to adjust the fuel ratio automatically, no screwing around.


Haven't played with these Link settings for some time, have they changed options for how meth is controlled? Thought mine was setup so when the set point is triggered , it enables the secondary fuel map (& not actually altering the global)?


They've updated it a bit the last update, more ways to trigger, can enable secondarys or adjust the global and deadtime.


Good to know, I'm probably out of date on the software, will have to check it out.


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451436
October 23, 2016 10:42 pm UTC
October 23, 2016 10:42 pm UTC
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Hey guys. So i finished installing my meth kit today. Fun project and seems to be working as expected. I do have a question i'm hoping someone can help with. I think I understand it correctly but i'd like someone to confirm.

I'm using ECMlink V3 full to trigger the pump by way of the FPS output and relay. I have the activation conditions set to 2500 RPM, 86% TPS, 1.8 load and knock greater >= 0* and less than 5*. I understand that with V3 full you can enable the MINOCT maps as secondary maps when FPS is active. For now I have my MIN and MAX tables matching until i confirm everything is working right and consistence before I start tweaking.

My question is, the way i have this set up if the ECU sees greater than 5* knock it will not enable the FPS because all the conditions aren't met? Assuming this is true, does this also mean it will switch back and use the MAXOCT table? Put another way, does link use the MAX table exclusively unless all the FPS activation conditions are met?

If this is right, I plan to use the MAX table for a conservative 91 pump tune and dial in the MIN tables for meth. I just need to be sure i have the ECMLink logic right so that if the pump fails or the nozzle gets clogged resulting an a bunch of knock, it will revert to the MAX tables with more conservative timing and fuel. Of course it won't pull boost since i have a MBC but i think this is a pretty good failsafe..ish?

Let me know if im off my rocker


1996 "Canary" Talon...give it any gas and it's dead
Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451437
October 24, 2016 12:41 am UTC
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You want to max out the knock option, you don't ever want it cutting out due to knock.

This is my current setup

[Linked Image]


1997 Eclipse GST - AWD swapped - TPC - GT Spec powered
2023 - 9.63 - 145mph
Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451439
October 24, 2016 01:24 am UTC
October 24, 2016 01:24 am UTC
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Thanks for the details Jason. I can see why you wouldn't want to stop spraying meth if you got knock but wouldn't it be better to drop the timing and add fuel by switching back to the pump gas tuned MAXOct table? Maybe this isn't how it works ?


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451440
October 24, 2016 01:31 am UTC
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Wow look at all those options. I'll have to look into this... I'm still using a pressure switch.

Pain in the butt when I ease on the throttle and bam compounds make 8psi and then next thing you know I'm spraying meth and at 20psi at 30% throttle.

Also I see the option to turn off on clutch switch. Do you guys not spray while on the 2 step???


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: Daren Peacock] #451441
October 24, 2016 03:04 am UTC
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Originally Posted by Daren Peacock
Originally Posted by Jeremy Gilbert
I'm guessing you mean a 7 GPH.

I run a single 10 GPH with 50/50 mix, and I run about 12.2-12.4:1 AFRs and she seems to like it. As always, you wanna run whatever the car seems to like most.

Aim for low-mid 11's first, then pull fuel from there and see what she likes.


Wow, seems pretty lean, what kind of boost & timing are you running & on what turbo?


Sorry, somehow missed this first time around.

12.4:1 AFRs with 23psi out of an FP Green with about 14* timing made 460awhp/395tq.

I had it as high as 30psi with about 12.0:1 AFRs with no knock, but I wasn't watching my timing as I only did that to get an idea of when I might run out of injector (and wanted to see if my IATs would ever go up). I don't think I saved the logs though.

I'm fairly certain I have a 250psi meth pump.


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: Ben Stretch] #451442
October 24, 2016 03:15 am UTC
October 24, 2016 03:15 am UTC
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Originally Posted by Ben Stretch
Thanks for the details Jason. I can see why you wouldn't want to stop spraying meth if you got knock but wouldn't it be better to drop the timing and add fuel by switching back to the pump gas tuned MAXOct table? Maybe this isn't how it works ?


If anything, I would add a solenoid valve and pressure sensor right before the nozzle and have it switch to a fail-safe map if pressure is lost, other than that, keep it spraying.

I'm not the meth expert by any means but this is what has worked for me.

Originally Posted by Mike Kuttschrutter
Wow look at all those options. I'll have to look into this... I'm still using a pressure switch.

Pain in the butt when I ease on the throttle and bam compounds make 8psi and then next thing you know I'm spraying meth and at 20psi at 30% throttle.

Also I see the option to turn off on clutch switch. Do you guys not spray while on the 2 step???


Link is the best option for controlling meth, hands down.

In my experience, there's no need to spray on the 2-step, not enough load to cause knock.

Originally Posted by Jeremy Gilbert
Originally Posted by Daren Peacock
Originally Posted by Jeremy Gilbert
I'm guessing you mean a 7 GPH.

I run a single 10 GPH with 50/50 mix, and I run about 12.2-12.4:1 AFRs and she seems to like it. As always, you wanna run whatever the car seems to like most.

Aim for low-mid 11's first, then pull fuel from there and see what she likes.


Wow, seems pretty lean, what kind of boost & timing are you running & on what turbo?


Sorry, somehow missed this first time around.

12.4:1 AFRs with 23psi out of an FP Green with about 14* timing made 460awhp/395tq.

I had it as high as 30psi with about 12.0:1 AFRs with no knock, but I wasn't watching my timing as I only did that to get an idea of when I might run out of injector (and wanted to see if my IATs would ever go up). I don't think I saved the logs though.

I'm fairly certain I have a 250psi meth pump.


I tune mine around 11.5, seems to be happy there on 94 + a single 14gph nozzle/250 psi pump, 75/25 mix at 35 psi/13* of peak timing.

The more meth you add, the richer you should run really, as the stoich ratio of methanol is around 6:1. Just takes some playing around to see what your motor likes.


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451443
October 24, 2016 04:07 am UTC
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Sven.. Does your pump have the pressure relief switch on the end?


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451444
October 24, 2016 10:52 am UTC
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Mr Drew, out of curriosity why did you decide to do it by rpm instead of boost? Easier to tune?


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: Jason Drew] #451445
October 24, 2016 10:58 am UTC
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Originally Posted by Jason Drew
If anything, I would add a solenoid valve and pressure sensor right before the nozzle and have it switch to a fail-safe map if pressure is lost, other than that, keep it spraying.

I'm not the meth expert by any means but this is what has worked for me.


Cool, thanks again. So how do you have the pressure switch and solenoid worked into the system? Is the pressure switch just an indicator light to confirm line pressure or is it somehow worked into link? How is the solenoid triggered vs the trigger to turn on the pump? Sorry for all the questions. I've done a lot of googling but most of the info is weak and outdated.

I thing I need to check the firmware version of my link since I don't have coolant temp and boost options on my version?


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451446
October 24, 2016 11:12 am UTC
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Pressure switched would be worked into link so it switches to your non meth map (hopefully the guys can say how this is done)
Your pump will always be on and should have a pressure shutoff, and the solenoid would be wired into link so that once you hit parameters the solenoid opens.

As for too many questions, no such thing. That's what this board is for!


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: Bryan Lawrence] #451447
October 24, 2016 11:30 am UTC
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Originally Posted by Bryan Lawrence
Your pump will always be on and should have a pressure shutoff, and the solenoid would be wired into link so that once you hit parameters the solenoid opens.


Always on you say! I don't think the old Devil's Own pump I bought (150 PSI surflo I think) has a pressure shut off but I'll look into this a little more. When I pressure tested it I just had the line open and then with the nozzle into a bucket. Might have to cap the end and see if it comes on and builds pressure and then switches off. That would make sense now that I think about it.

Any recomendations to source a pressure switch and solenoid?

Originally Posted by Bryan Lawrence
As for too many questions, no such thing. That's what this board is for!

Thanks Bryan. This is exactly why I posted here instead of the ECMlink forum. You guys are great!


1996 "Canary" Talon...give it any gas and it's dead
Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: Bryan Lawrence] #451448
October 24, 2016 11:34 am UTC
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Originally Posted by Bryan Lawrence
Mr Drew, out of curriosity why did you decide to do it by rpm instead of boost? Easier to tune?


It's not, it's activated by load. That is the most accurate way to tune it.

The 4200rpm is just a number I picked. With my setup I'll never hit 1.5 load at 4200rpm, so I could set it at 2000, it doesn't really matter.


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451449
October 24, 2016 01:39 pm UTC
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Ah ok, I saw the 4200 and just assume it came on then, it's been a while since I have seen a link log, will remember this when I get the car back on the road.

Originally Posted by Ben Stretch
Any recomendations to source a pressure switch and solenoid?
I would actually be curious to hear this as my car came with the solenoid and I still need a pressure sensor. Guys can you shed some light on what pressure and where you set it in link to switch timing maps/boost?


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451450
October 24, 2016 02:59 pm UTC
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I'm running the snow kit 2 nozzles
675ml and 225ml. Hp pump progressive kit.
Starts at 20psi and peaks at 35psi.
I'm able to get 18deg at 7500rpm. 12.3afr and 42psi of boost. 50 50 mixture.


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451451
October 24, 2016 03:16 pm UTC
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When using the FPS output in link, does that switch to Alt Maps as well, or do you still use an input to make it switch?


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451452
October 24, 2016 03:23 pm UTC
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There's an option to switch maps when FPS or EGR are active.


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451453
October 24, 2016 03:35 pm UTC
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I've never understood.

Whats the point of mixing meth with water?

Meth has a flash point of almost double then gasoline, And it's a self cooling fuel. We battle freezing injectors open on the Rail car all the time.

Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451454
October 24, 2016 03:49 pm UTC
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^^
you can just buy it in the form of washer fluid on the go at any gas station.

I hopped in my car yesterday and realized my meth tank was almost empty. So I stopped at TSC and got a bunch of washer fluid on sale. I don't think I'll ever take the time to mix more then 50/50.
Grab and Go


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: Jason Drew] #451455
October 24, 2016 03:50 pm UTC
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Originally Posted by Jason Drew
There's an option to switch maps when FPS or EGR are active.


This is the option I'm using. What I'd be curious to know/confirm is, when FPS (or EGR) is active, it selects the alternate map (MINOct) which you would presumable tune for meth timing and fuel. So does that mean that if any of the activation conditions ( the ones in Jason's snapshot above) are false, does the ECU stays in or reverts to the standard map (MAXOct)?

I wonder if there is a logable value in link that can tell you which table is being used at any given time?

Now I'm really being a pest. Sorry Jason! lol


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: Mike Kuttschrutter] #451456
October 24, 2016 04:02 pm UTC
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Originally Posted by Sven Hebbard
I've never understood.

Whats the point of mixing meth with water?

Meth has a flash point of almost double then gasoline, And it's a self cooling fuel. We battle freezing injectors open on the Rail car all the time.


It depends what you're using it for, if you want the cooling effects, water absorbs much more heat than meth. Obviously if you just want an octane boost, the more meth the better.

The #1 reason is safety, you can't see a methanol fire, supposedly concentrations 50% and below are not flammable.



Originally Posted by Ben Stretch
Originally Posted by Jason Drew
There's an option to switch maps when FPS or EGR are active.


This is the option I'm using. What I'd be curious to know/confirm is, when FPS (or EGR) is active, it selects the alternate map (MINOct) which you would presumable tune for meth timing and fuel. So does that mean that if any of the activation conditions ( the ones in Jason's snapshot above) are false, does the ECU stays in or reverts to the standard map (MAXOct)?

I wonder if there is a logable value in link that can tell you which table is being used at any given time?

Now I'm really being a pest. Sorry Jason! lol


Correct, if the conditions aren't met, no meth and no map switch.

You can log the FPS switch, so you'll know when it's pumping and also the map should switch too at the same time.

Originally Posted by Mike Kuttschrutter
^^
you can just buy it in the form of washer fluid on the go at any gas station.

I hopped in my car yesterday and realized my meth tank was almost empty. So I stopped at TSC and got a bunch of washer fluid on sale. I don't think I'll ever take the time to mix more then 50/50.
Grab and Go


Be careful with that, actual concentration varies a LOT.


1997 Eclipse GST - AWD swapped - TPC - GT Spec powered
2023 - 9.63 - 145mph
Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: Jason Drew] #451457
October 24, 2016 04:23 pm UTC
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Originally Posted by Jason Drew
Correct, if the conditions aren't met, no meth and no map switch.

You can log the FPS switch, so you'll know when it's pumping and also the map should switch too at the same time.


Cool, thanks for your patience and info. I'll look into the press switch and solenoid.

Originally Posted by Mike Kuttschrutter
^^
you can just buy it in the form of washer fluid on the go at any gas station.

I hopped in my car yesterday and realized my meth tank was almost empty. So I stopped at TSC and got a bunch of washer fluid on sale. I don't think I'll ever take the time to mix more then 50/50.
Grab and Go

Originally Posted by Jason Drew
Be careful with that, actual concentration varies a LOT.




I pick up a gallon of deionized water for $2.49 and a gallon of methyl hydrate for $9.99 at CT. Should make the mix pretty consistent and 2 gallons for $13 isn't too bad. We'll see how long it last


1996 "Canary" Talon...give it any gas and it's dead
Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451458
October 24, 2016 04:54 pm UTC
October 24, 2016 04:54 pm UTC
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Stanstead, Quebec
Jason Drew Online content
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It lasts a while, I go through about 3-4 gallons of mix over the summer.


1997 Eclipse GST - AWD swapped - TPC - GT Spec powered
2023 - 9.63 - 145mph
Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: Jason Drew] #451460
October 24, 2016 05:11 pm UTC
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Mike Kuttschrutter Offline
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Originally Posted by Jason Drew
It lasts a while, I go through about 3-4 gallons of mix over the summer.


ummm? I go through my 2 gallon tank in a weekend.... wtf must be siphoning like crazy.... this is good to know

Last edited by Mike Kuttschrutter; October 24, 2016 05:17 pm UTC.

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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: Mike Kuttschrutter] #451461
October 24, 2016 06:18 pm UTC
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Guelph, Ontario
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Originally Posted by Paul Sitarski
I'm able to get 18deg at 7500rpm. 12.3afr and 42psi of boost. 50 50 mixture.


I see a lot of pros quoting numbers similar to this. I used to run 11.5AFR with about 22* timing; the leaner tune with less timing seems to be making a LOT more power. Which makes perfect sense to me.

Originally Posted by Mike Kuttschrutter
^^
you can just buy it in the form of washer fluid on the go at any gas station.


Careful with this. As Jason said, concentrations vary. Also, washer fluid is not ONLY water and meth - for one, pretty much any washer fluid will use colouring. After 1 season on CTC's green winter washer fluid, my pump, lines, and check valves were all gunked up with green sh!t. I mix my own 50/50 now and have never had a problem.

Meth also stores fairly well, it just absorbs water from the air. But a 50/50 mix in a sealed container won't absorb much water. I have a 3gal tank; every spring, I mix 4 gallons, fill the tank, and throw a spare gallon in the trunk. I've yet to need my spare.


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: Mike Kuttschrutter] #451462
October 24, 2016 06:29 pm UTC
October 24, 2016 06:29 pm UTC
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Stanstead, Quebec
Jason Drew Online content
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Originally Posted by Mike Kuttschrutter
Originally Posted by Jason Drew
It lasts a while, I go through about 3-4 gallons of mix over the summer.


ummm? I go through my 2 gallon tank in a weekend.... wtf must be siphoning like crazy.... this is good to know


I used a lot more on a hobbs switch, when activating by load you'll find you use a lot less.


1997 Eclipse GST - AWD swapped - TPC - GT Spec powered
2023 - 9.63 - 145mph
Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451463
October 24, 2016 07:52 pm UTC
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This is the pump I use. The 2 wire switch on the end is an over pressure cut off. If the nozzle clogs or what ever.. The pump shuts off.


[Linked Image]

This is the circuit I made. I ran a wire off the pump side of the over pressure switch. This wire runs to a pressure switch by the nozzle with an inline dash light. When the nozzle sees 35psi+ fluid pressure the pressure switch turns on the light. If not enough pressure, the light doesn't turn on.

So if there is too much pressure, the pump shuts off and so does the light.

Then I have a relay inline this circuit, that activates the idle switch pin. This switches to Aux maps.

So when egr turns on water injection. The fail safe wire activates the dash light and the aux map.

So if nozzle clogs. Light goes out.. Switches to base map..

Hose comes undone.. Light goes out Switches to base map

Run tank empty.. Light goes out Switches to base map.

[Linked Image]

So far it works well.. But I stripped the threads in my check valve so it's on hold till spring. I was running 7g nozzle .. 5 parts water 2 parts meth. Didn't seem to effect the a/f but dropped temps everywhere and eliminated knock at 25psi and 14°timing.

Last edited by Jay Stacey; October 24, 2016 07:55 pm UTC.

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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451464
October 24, 2016 08:21 pm UTC
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Where in link is the setting to switch maps


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451465
October 24, 2016 08:24 pm UTC
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In the AuxMaps tab.


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: Jason Drew] #451466
October 24, 2016 08:24 pm UTC
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Originally Posted by Jason Drew
Originally Posted by Sven Hebbard
I've never understood.

Whats the point of mixing meth with water?

Meth has a flash point of almost double then gasoline, And it's a self cooling fuel. We battle freezing injectors open on the Rail car all the time.


It depends what you're using it for, if you want the cooling effects, water absorbs much more heat than meth. Obviously if you just want an octane boost, the more meth the better.

The #1 reason is safety, you can't see a methanol fire, supposedly concentrations 50% and below are not flammable.



For the amount of Meth that we use here I wouldn't see it being a issue. Also the Methanol has cooling property far superior to water.. On our rail car after running 168mph on the 1/4 the Blower is ICE cold(in a 32c day you'd think you stuck your hand on a bag of ice)

If you treat methanol with respect you won't have issues.

Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451467
October 24, 2016 08:35 pm UTC
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There's a 10 page post on tuners on water vs meth.. And the rep from devils own was in discussion. By the end he actually convinced himself that water/alcohol was a better choice.

I've always believed that if your just running a ton of boost and power on a built engine.. Where the engine isn't the limit , then meth is a better choice. It raises the octane level to suppress knock so you can run more timing and boost.

Water injection is more for running your engine past its limit. Eliminating knock so you can run way more boost and then tune for max power.

I think this is why people say max your tune out before you add meth. But with water.. You just add water and then raise boost and tune the car.

I'm more comfortable with water.. And I don't think I'll need more fuel any way. Not planning on making more then 32psi on my stock block.

Last edited by Jay Stacey; October 24, 2016 08:37 pm UTC.

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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: Jeremy Gilbert] #451468
October 24, 2016 08:41 pm UTC
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Originally Posted by Jeremy Gilbert
Originally Posted by Paul Sitarski
I'm able to get 18deg at 7500rpm. 12.3afr and 42psi of boost. 50 50 mixture.


I see a lot of pros quoting numbers similar to this. I used to run 11.5AFR with about 22* timing; the leaner tune with less timing seems to be making a LOT more power. Which makes perfect sense to me.[quote]


When you say you're targeting 12.3:1 AFR would that be on 94 oct pump?

Jay, love the write up. Great stuff!

This is becoming a great thread guys. Super helpful to me and I'll be referring back to it often I'd say.


1996 "Canary" Talon...give it any gas and it's dead
Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451469
October 24, 2016 08:43 pm UTC
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Keep in mind.. Paul's car makes about 700hp


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: Jay Stacey] #451470
October 24, 2016 08:54 pm UTC
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Originally Posted by Jay Stacey
There's a 10 page post on tuners on water vs meth.. And the rep from devils own was in discussion. By the end he actually convinced himself that water/alcohol was a better choice.

I've always believed that if your just running a ton of boost and power on a built engine.. Where the engine isn't the limit , then meth is a better choice. It raises the octane level to suppress knock so you can run more timing and boost.

Water injection is more for running your engine past its limit. Eliminating knock so you can run way more boost and then tune for max power.

I think this is why people say max your tune out before you add meth. But with water.. You just add water and then raise boost and tune the car.

I'm more comfortable with water.. And I don't think I'll need more fuel any way. Not planning on making more then 32psi on my stock block.


I'm a little lost of the cooling property's meth vs water/meth... I have seen meth injection freeze components inside several vehicles, Never have i heard or seen of 50/50 doing this?

At end of day I'm thinking it's what performs best for someone and their vehicle(s) specific in question.

I myself and several guys out here run 94pump and pure meth in the tank as well. (stock long block subie trapped 125.1mph, only gtx3076r(36psi), exhaust, 1000cc injectors and wally 450 @ 2200ASL).


Ethanol always burns blue , if the flame is high enough it will get a yellow tail , Methanol either burns with an invisible flame or with a yellow flame depending on purity content


Most people switch to ethanol for the colder burning fuel factor, Correct? Methanol burns almost 50C COLDER then ethanol.

Now most won't see this benefit unless running a pure meth driven car, but benefits are still there to be had.

Last edited by Sven Hebbard; October 24, 2016 08:58 pm UTC.
Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: Jay Stacey] #451471
October 24, 2016 09:07 pm UTC
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Originally Posted by Jay Stacey
Keep in mind.. Paul's car makes about 700hp


Roy-t! Better keep that in mind for sure.


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451472
October 24, 2016 09:08 pm UTC
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That and as mentioned in the tuners post..and a lot of what I've read.. Most won't experience the true benefits of meth unless fully tuned with 3d mapping.

Like I said before tho. I'm not that experienced in meth.. So I don't try to figure it out.

Now water is said to not get true benefits untill your way over the limits of your set up.. But I'm just using it as a secondary intercooler so to speak.


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451473
October 24, 2016 09:16 pm UTC
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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: Jay Stacey] #451475
October 24, 2016 11:34 pm UTC
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Jump to pages 10+ several people talk about 100% methanol spraying or e100. And how their results are, Some are saying you just need to adjust your nozzle size accordingly.

I understand the theory behind the water, but just from what i've experienced putting it in our tanks and injecting, and from what our drag car does. Pure meth to me trumpys a mixture IF SET UP PROPERLY.

if you don't do a proper 50/50 mix for meth at Minimum It's more prone to knock this is proven, Meth always needs to be the higher number, It will also require less fuel from your pumps.

Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451476
October 24, 2016 11:52 pm UTC
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people been injecting water into their engines for knock suppression way longer then meth.. It is proven to work really well. I went from some knock.. To no knock with 70% water.. And didn't need to change my tune.


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: Jay Stacey] #451481
October 25, 2016 02:19 pm UTC
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Originally Posted by Jay Stacey

This is the circuit I made. I ran a wire off the pump side of the over pressure switch. This wire runs to a pressure switch by the nozzle with an inline dash light. When the nozzle sees 35psi+ fluid pressure the pressure switch turns on the light. If not enough pressure, the light doesn't turn on.

So if there is too much pressure, the pump shuts off and so does the light.

Then I have a relay inline this circuit, that activates the idle switch pin. This switches to Aux maps.

So when egr turns on water injection. The fail safe wire activates the dash light and the aux map.

So if nozzle clogs. Light goes out.. Switches to base map..

Hose comes undone.. Light goes out Switches to base map

Run tank empty.. Light goes out Switches to base map.

[Linked Image]

So far it works well.. But I stripped the threads in my check valve so it's on hold till spring. I was running 7g nozzle .. 5 parts water 2 parts meth. Didn't seem to effect the a/f but dropped temps everywhere and eliminated knock at 25psi and 14°timing.


I like this. I am going to try and copy for next year. tongue


Stock.
Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451483
October 25, 2016 05:09 pm UTC
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The pressure sensor I am using.. Is a a/c pressure switch from a Mazda or Nissan. Its about 35psi to switch on. The 92 talon has a 30psi switch.. But I was afraid of so was running 30psi of boost... Then it would activate if there was no meth pressure.


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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451486
October 25, 2016 05:44 pm UTC
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Why not put your pressure switch on the other side of the check valve? And your fuse should be between the battery and relay not after the relay.

Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451487
October 25, 2016 07:36 pm UTC
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I was worried that the check valve would hold pressure in the line too long and not switch into safe mode.

The sensor is the first thing treated into the nozzle. Its actually a brass T.

My check valve is actually about 18 inches of braided hose away from the nozzle.

And I figured the fuse should go closest to the pump it self. To protect it from anything else anywhere in the curcit.

Last edited by Jay Stacey; October 25, 2016 07:39 pm UTC.

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Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451488
October 25, 2016 07:55 pm UTC
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Fair enough on the pressure switch that makes sense. But the fuse needs to be closest to the battery its to protect the battery from shorting and causing a fire not to protect the pump.

Re: installed meth and looking for advice [Re: John MacPhail] #451489
October 25, 2016 08:20 pm UTC
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That would actually work And look better anyway. Tanks Stephen, I'll swap that around and just run one wire from the battery to a fuse block and run both relay 12v sources off the other side of the fuse block.


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