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No Start Issue - 1ga Talon Tsi AWD #449513
June 30, 2016 06:00 pm UTC
June 30, 2016 06:00 pm UTC
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 292
Woodbridge, Ontario
Danny Dias Offline OP
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Danny Dias  Offline OP
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Hello DSMers,

Back again with an issue that has plagued my 1g Talon ever since I purchased it. I am going to describe 2 different scenarios whereby the symptoms have been exhibited and a make-shift solution implemented that serves as a temporary fix, without a reasonable explanation as to the true cause of the recurring issue. I will leave it to you guys to propose viable theories on the root cause of the issue as well as potential solutions to fix it once and for all.

Scenario 1:
Car is parked in my underground garage over night; i.e.'Cold Start'. I wake up in the morning, put the key in the ignition, starter motor turns the engine and it starts fine. I go to the grocery store and park the car for say 20 minutes. I come back and try to start the car; i.e. 'Warm Start'. The starter motor clicks but does not turn the engine. I roll the car forwards a few feet, pop it in 2nd, drop the clutch, push the clutch back in immediately after, then turn the ignition, start motor turns the engine, car starts fine. And I'm off.

This has been the case pretty much ever since I had the car in my possession. It is intermittent, with no real signs of why sometimes it happens and sometimes it does not. It should be noted that a brand new start was just installed and the grounding wires were fixed up. The only explanation I can think of for this is something involving mechanical resistance (of the engine?), since whenever I get the engine turning by dropping the clutch in gear, it seems to catch just fine.

Scenario 2:
This one happened for the first time this morning. 'Cold Start' again. Woke up in the morning, went to start the car as usual, key in the ignition, starter motor turns the engine, but this time it does not catch; it just keeps rolling over. I tried giving her a little gas but still not luck. One time it caught on and was running for about 5 seconds before stalling. I thought this was air-fuel related, since I have done a few mods lately with the intercooler, MAF/T, AFC2, increase boost, but haven't tuned yet. So I was looking for a misplaced vacuum line or something. But everything seemed fine. Then I tried to do the 'roll' trick again, and low-and-behold, it works. Popped the clutch, turn the ignition and car starts fine again.

Scenario 2 pretty much negates my theory on mechanical resistance, since the engine was turning. This leads me to believe that the root cause is electrical signal-related or has to do with some sort of sensor pertaining to the movement of the vehicle/transmission/crankshaft.

So there you have it. Feel free to ask me any questions. I will try my best to be as responsive as possible in a timely fashion. Looking for ideas on root cause and solutions.

thanks,

Last edited by Danny Dias; June 30, 2016 06:10 pm UTC.

1990 Eagle Talon TSI AWD
2021 MB C43 AMG(daily driver)
Re: No Start Issue - 1ga Talon Tsi AWD [Re: Danny Dias] #449514
June 30, 2016 07:05 pm UTC
June 30, 2016 07:05 pm UTC
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 608
Toronto, ON
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Chris Browning Offline
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It sounds like you battery is on the way out, how old is it?

The starter clicking indicates it's not receiving enough voltage to turn over. I realize it's been (until today) starting when cold but I've had cars in the past that were easier to turn over when cold compared to hot, especially in warm weather when your "cold" starts are around 20 degrees.


1995 Talon TSi AWD
Evo III 16G / FIC 850's / Walbro 255 / RTM FMIC / ECMLink V3
Re: No Start Issue - 1ga Talon Tsi AWD [Re: Danny Dias] #449515
June 30, 2016 09:02 pm UTC
June 30, 2016 09:02 pm UTC
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 126
PEI, Canada
Ben Stretch Offline
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+1 on that ^

I think scenario 2 is unrelated to your normal issue and you might have mutiple issues happening.

Have you ever tried boosting (cables I mean. turning up the boost on a in-op car has proven to give poor results) it when hot and it doesn't turn over? If you tried this, without the roll bump manoeuvre first, and it went you could narrow it to battery and or starter. With cable and a jump it might give a bit of a push to a weak starter or battery.

Also you could try checking your battery voltage before your first cold start and then with the car running. Maybe the alternator is not giving a good charge.

Just my two cents and a couple of freebies.

This link won't be helpful but might make you feel better.

Try it now


1996 "Canary" Talon...give it any gas and it's dead
Re: No Start Issue - 1ga Talon Tsi AWD [Re: Danny Dias] #449516
June 30, 2016 09:48 pm UTC
June 30, 2016 09:48 pm UTC
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,398
Ajax, ON
Reza Mirza Offline
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I almost have a feeling it is still another grounding issue, as when I cleaned up the grounds, it started fine. Could you add another ground cable from battery to firewall, then a second one from firewall to the starter bolt on the transmission to see if it makes a difference.


1G DSM: 1000+ AWHP, 9.2@162.83 MPH
Evo X: 746 AWHP, XR9569S pump gas
www.dynotuneracing.com



Re: No Start Issue - 1ga Talon Tsi AWD [Re: Danny Dias] #449519
July 01, 2016 07:29 am UTC
July 01, 2016 07:29 am UTC
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 292
Woodbridge, Ontario
Danny Dias Offline OP
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Hi guys,

Thank you for the feedback. The battery is brand new as of 3 weeks ago. So I doubt it would be a weak battery @chris @ben

I will try the grounding technique you suggested @reza. Update to follow.

Thanks,


1990 Eagle Talon TSI AWD
2021 MB C43 AMG(daily driver)
Re: No Start Issue - 1ga Talon Tsi AWD [Re: Danny Dias] #449521
July 01, 2016 02:06 pm UTC
July 01, 2016 02:06 pm UTC
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Los Angeles, California
Alex Akachinskiy Offline
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i am also with Reza on the grounding issue. I had exact same symptoms with my old 99 Spyder GST. Replacing factory ground cable from firewall to intake manifold solved it for me.


1996 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
1999 Eclipse GST Automagic
1991 3000GT VR-4
Re: No Start Issue - 1ga Talon Tsi AWD [Re: Danny Dias] #449522
July 01, 2016 07:01 pm UTC
July 01, 2016 07:01 pm UTC
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,438
Kitchener Ontario
Stephen Richardson Offline
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A voltage drop test is a pretty simple way to test your grounds.

As said it seems like you have 2 very different scenarios.

We fixed the No Crank. Now its a no start.

1 issue could be a starter ( yes it is new...most likely rebuilt. Depending on rebuilder it could still be bad.)

Some simple testing with a voltmeter during the no start conditions could answer alot of you question.

Re: No Start Issue - 1ga Talon Tsi AWD [Re: Danny Dias] #451193
October 05, 2016 09:16 am UTC
October 05, 2016 09:16 am UTC
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Posts: 1,084
Halifax Nova Scotia
kent Hennigar Offline
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I have a question.
How many modifications have been made to the electrical system.
(on your DSM)

I have helped a number of people with no start problems on DSM's
most of the times it is a bad ground. or a ground not hooked up / forgotten about in a rewire. probably not your case because it was running.

i need you to think out side the box... for example i have gotten 3 or 4 DSM's to run were the owners were left frustrated and I boasted I would have it running in 30 min or less.(I also new the car though to be in sound working order) smile case of beer if you can do it buddy is what they said =)
I found out there power wire for there fuel pump was not making my probe light glow.. thing is this fuel pump rewire was a new and well done mod but i find with the stereo wire 12 gauge it has a million little thin lines of copper all knitted together so any kind of load or draw on them those little fibers some times turn to powder thus good buy good ground or connection.

fixed a 700 HP dsm in under 15 min with and Allan key and razor knife... also noted the car was rewired with a distribution block on fire wall. <(o.0)>



Just Because you are not paranoid dose NOT mean they are not out to get YOU !
Re: No Start Issue - 1ga Talon Tsi AWD [Re: Danny Dias] #451858
November 29, 2016 08:40 pm UTC
November 29, 2016 08:40 pm UTC
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 292
Woodbridge, Ontario
Danny Dias Offline OP
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Danny Dias  Offline OP
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Alas, the mystery has been solved. It was a faulty ignition switch. It was replaced and it is all good now. Big shout out to Reza for being Sherlock Holmes on this one.

Cheers


1990 Eagle Talon TSI AWD
2021 MB C43 AMG(daily driver)
Re: No Start Issue - 1ga Talon Tsi AWD [Re: Danny Dias] #453086
May 03, 2017 11:12 pm UTC
May 03, 2017 11:12 pm UTC
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 292
Woodbridge, Ontario
Danny Dias Offline OP
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Danny Dias  Offline OP
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I just thought I would add another point of note on this no start issue.

So one problem was the 'no crank'; that was resolved with a new ignition switch.

The second issue was a 'no start'. The basic symptom was that the starter motor would crank but it would not catch and run until maybe 40-50 tries (that's right! I would usually have jumper cables connected just so I can keep it going until it started). After several attempts, it would slowly ramp up the chugging to the point it finally caught on. This issue was resolved by installing a new 'Coolant Temperature Sensor'.

Now, my car starts every time I turn the key smile

thanks Reza!


1990 Eagle Talon TSI AWD
2021 MB C43 AMG(daily driver)
Re: No Start Issue - 1ga Talon Tsi AWD [Re: Danny Dias] #453092
May 04, 2017 01:06 pm UTC
May 04, 2017 01:06 pm UTC
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Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence Offline
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Wow I had bad CTS wiring and it still didn't take me that long to start. Glad you got it fixed though!


"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD
"Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD
Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
Re: No Start Issue - 1ga Talon Tsi AWD [Re: Danny Dias] #453094
May 04, 2017 01:20 pm UTC
May 04, 2017 01:20 pm UTC
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Niagara Falls, Ontario
Ziggy Dietrich Offline
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When the CTS wiring on my old 1g went, I couldn't get it to start at all...


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"Whitebird" RIP
Re: No Start Issue - 1ga Talon Tsi AWD [Re: Danny Dias] #453097
May 04, 2017 02:01 pm UTC
May 04, 2017 02:01 pm UTC
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Lucian Marta Offline
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Yeah if the CTS is gone or the wiring is messed (most common) it's a no-go.


1993 TSi AWD
2008 Evo GSR
2011 Ralliart
2012 Ralliart
2011 RVR GT
Re: No Start Issue - 1ga Talon Tsi AWD [Re: Danny Dias] #453558
August 02, 2017 02:07 am UTC
August 02, 2017 02:07 am UTC
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Rob Strelecki Offline

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I had the same "no crank" problem as Danny for ages and I tried everything except the ignition switch. It was Reza who after all suggested the ignition switch to me as well, but my car has been parked for some time.

Now I'm about to DSM again and got to thinking...
1) A new ignition switch is probably expensive.
2) A used ignition switch is an old and probably worn out ignition switch.

I started reading about starter problems and voltage drop and why the ignition switch doesn't work. It's worn out and especially with everything on that circuit, it doesn't supply enough voltage to the trigger wire for the solenoid.

That led me here:
http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/Starter.shtml#OtherOptions
So now the ignition switch only had to supply a milli-amp current to operate the relay and the relay supplies the higher current required by the solenoid (which in turn supplies the 100s of amps needed by the starter motor itself).

I've done it with a $20 trip to Princess Auto smile
Started very quickly on the first try. I'll post an update after some time on it.


1993 Eagle Talon TSi FWD
13.8 @ 106 :::: 14.1 @ 117
Re: No Start Issue - 1ga Talon Tsi AWD [Re: Danny Dias] #453564
August 02, 2017 09:50 pm UTC
August 02, 2017 09:50 pm UTC
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Posts: 4,398
Ajax, ON
Reza Mirza Offline
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I'm pretty sure the new ignition switch was around $40 for Danny's car from Rock Auto.


1G DSM: 1000+ AWHP, 9.2@162.83 MPH
Evo X: 746 AWHP, XR9569S pump gas
www.dynotuneracing.com



Re: No Start Issue - 1ga Talon Tsi AWD [Re: Danny Dias] #453565
August 02, 2017 10:15 pm UTC
August 02, 2017 10:15 pm UTC
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Rob Strelecki Offline

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Yeah it's not terrible, $60 or so to my door within a week.


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