What's the difference between a 16g turbo, and a stock TDO5H with a 16g compressor wheel?

The "16g turbo" is the stock TDO5H with a 16g impeller.

The 14b and the 16g both use the same exhaust and compressor housing (TDO5H), the only difference is the impeller wheel. The only way to tell them apart is to take them off the car and look at the impeller.

Why are you asking?



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91 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
My Attempt at a website

I ask because I was confused about it. I told my shop I wanted a 16g and they told me they'd just put a 16g compressor in a TDO5H. When I heard people talking about 16g turbos, I came to the conclusion they were 2 different things, and the way my shop was doing it was some cheap half-assed way of doing it. That's all.

Thanks.
marty

You should look on the partstrader.com and on the parts for sale section on the main dsm site (dsm.org). You will probably find a couple of 16g's for sale there.

Is the shop doing it themselves? If so you should know that the whole thing has to be balanced. How much are they charging for it? You could get one on the partstrader for around 500us (new) and cheaper if used. But then you have to install it.

Later



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91 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
My Attempt at a website

Isn't the intake and exhaust turbine larger on a 16G? If not, who knows I may have one.

My shop is getting the turbo from his supplier, then he is installing it. The new turbo itself is going to cost $1200 canadian, ported, polished and balanced. And he gave a ballpark of about 3 hours to do the job. Does this sound reasonable? I'm not sure if I'd want a used one.

Marty

[This message has been edited by copyjerk (edited January 10, 2001).]

Jeff you're right the 16g sometimes comes with the 7cm exhaust housing but I'm pretty sure they also come with the stock 6cm exhaust housing. You can't tell the difference by looking at them on the car.

CJ,
Don't waste your money! You can get a NEW 16g for $500-$570us, just look on the parts trader or look at the burshur or extreme site. There is a link to their pages in the links section.

I got my 16g for $500us from some guy that was going to convert his nt to a turbo, but then realized that it wasn't worth it. It still had all the plastic wrap on it when I got it!

$1200 is way way too much for a 16g especially if they are charging you 3hrs labor on top of that.. You probably could get a t3/t4 for that price. Look around and be patient...it's still winter.

Ps Please use your real name

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91 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
My Attempt at a website

[This message has been edited by Vince Amato (edited January 10, 2001).]

Thanks V.
I have been shopping around since August and found this, honestly, to be the cheapest! I can't seem to get anything better. In fact, some places around here wanted $1000-1200 for a stock TDO5H! Outrageous! The 2nd best quote I got (from a reputable place) was $1,125 for a 16G. Not ported, or anything.
Anyway, I'll keep looking. As for my name, it was a mistake; I don't know how to change it! Should I just simply re-register?

marty
<font color=red>we can use html?</font>

[This message has been edited by copyjerk (edited January 10, 2001).]

Actually, ported, polished and balanced for $1200 is pretty good, depending on who the shop is. I imagine a new 16g done up like that from a US shop like TRE, Buschur, etc. would be about the same price.

Of course, for that money you could get a BIG 16g from the US, and have a bit more potential.

Thanks Troy.
What exactly is a "big" 16G? Should I go for that instead? My goal is to get my car up to 300 hp, but still be able to use my regular clutch, (until I need a new one).
I have trusted my shop with everything on my car and things have been great. I know he does a good job.

Marty

That sounds exactly like my goal, although I'm sure 300hp won't be enough once I reach it. (:

The 16g will do it, but you have to have a lot of supporting mods. The 20g or Franks will do it, but they're mother huge and you have to know how to take care of them. The Big 16g is right in the middle. It's the exact same as a 16g, but has a larger compressor wheel, so it flows more air. Price them out.

You won't be losing with the 16g, though. It's tried and true.

Yeah, I agree. After a couple of weeks driving around, you'll want to find a way to eek out 20 more horses... then another... But I don't think I'd want one of the Frankensteins. This is still my everyday car.

I discussed the 16g further with my shop this morning. They said they might be able to get me a Garret for around $1000, but he advised against porting it. Any reasons why?
M.

I can't see any reason not to port it and the exhaust manifold. You port the intake side for better air flow, and the wastegate so you don't get boost creep.

The only reason I could see for them to say not to port it is so it won't crack as easy...but it's going to rack no matter what you do to it. (well unless you leave it on your shelf)


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91 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
My Attempt at a website

Against porting the Garrett, or any turbo? It might be because of the material, perhaps. The housings are rough-cast, so there's a lot of improvement to be made that will expedite and smooth airflow through them. Anyone that says otherwise knows not what they're talking about.

Any turbo can be daily-driven. Even the larger 20G's and Franks have minimal lag if they're done properly, and not clipped. They're just not as happy until they're under power. As for the Garrett, ask him which model it is. The T-25 is the stock 2G turbo (worse than what you have), The Super-60 is a little better, but not as good as a 16G, and a T03/04 would require a custom manifold.

You can also transform a t25 to a t28. Same compressor as s60 but larger wheel on the hot side. And the s60 compressor wheel sa the same size of the 16g.

Mayby I will experiment the t28 next summer. Now I have the s60 in my car.

He said the Garrett he may be able to acquire for me would be the equivalent of a small 16g. But I don't know Garrett's, so I don't know which one he meant. He suggested I get a 16g rather than a Garrett because they will bolt right up to my (new) exh. manifold and require no custom work. I spent 4 or 5 months last summer searching for a header, but absolutely nobody appeared to make one for the 1G Talon, so I had to (sadly) settle for an OEM replacement. I was quite disappointed.

He advised against porting any 16g (or comparable turbo), yes, because of the housing cracking later in its life.
So which is better? A Super 60 or a big 16g?

M.

I'd stick with the 16G. The 2G's usually take the T25-S60-T28+ path.

As for the headers, they're made, but they ain't cheap. And stories abound about cracking and such. Your best bet would have been a 2G manifold.

2g manifold didn't fit. Trust me, we tried! The studs didn't line up. We phoned the dealer and they said it has something to do with a change in production around April of 91. My car was manufactured in Feb of 91 and had the early design. Then it was changed (if memory serves me) in April of that year, and a slightly improved manifold design was used. So I ended up forking out $400 for a new manifold. I had to anyway, to get my car to pass emissions - exhaust was BELCHING out the cracked manifold. It was split right in two.

Should I let you know what turbo I end up with? (and what the final price was?)

M.

Sure. But that dealer thing with the mainfold? Bulls**T. BS BS BS BS... PURE BS. I have a '90, and my 2G manifold went on just fine. It's not that the studs don't line up, the two end ones have to be changed on the head to a 10mm size, and a little of the driver's side corner has to be ground away for it to fit.

You could have picked up a 95 exhaust mani for 100us from the parts trader. You just have to grind a bit of material from the side where the power steering pump is to get it to fit.

Troy, do you have to change the manifold studs to 10mm. I didn't do this....I think it is ok

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91 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
My Attempt at a website

Damn. Well, a new 2G was more $$ anyway. I'm still not sure I would like buying used, or from some place that didn't have any kind of warranty.
Are they less crack-resistant? Do they flow a lot better?
Well, I'm happy with what I got; I was in a jam. I had to have it fixed straight away in order to pass my emissions test.

M.

You don't *have* to, Vince, but they're stronger, and the holes in the manifold are machined for a 10mm bolt as opposed to an 8mm one.

Right on both counts, Marty. More free-flowing and more crack resistant. I even ported mine a little. As for $100US on the Traders, where?!? I've yet to see them for less than $150US. I got mine from a yard in Toronto for $150CDN.

I just thought of something and I need a little more explanation. Troy, I have to assume you're telling me the truth, but things just don't make any sense!
The dealer I bought my manifold from needed to know the exact production date of my car in order to get the right manifold. The first one we ordered didn't fit and was a different shape, and, of course, had to be returned. When questioned, the dealerships said the engine block was revised part way through the 1991 year and the new block had newly designed coolant channels in better, and slightly different locations. Therefore the studs also had to be moved to accomodate this. That is why they didn't line up on my car! Think about it logically-

1) Why does the dealer have 3 different exh. manifolds (for the turbo cars) with 3 different part numbers? Two for the 1g and one for the 2g, all at different prices.

2) Why didn't the studs line up on my car? I *must* have a different engine.

3) If 2nd generation manifolds fit all 1g's, then that means every aftermarket header created for 2g's will ALSO fit 1g's. So...
the big question,
Why do these aftermarket companies say their headers fit ONLY 95-99 Talons/Eclipses? Obviously, by what you're saying, they will all fit 1G cars! So why aren't these companies saying the header fits 90-99 cars? They would literally DOUBLE their market, and their profits!

If you can find any holes in what I've written, and I'm sure you will, please tell me! I totally don't understand.

Sorry for the length of this!
M.
p.s. should/can I port the bottom of my manifold when I get the new turbo?

2G exhaust manifolds fit on a 1G. Almost every guy here in montreal have a 2g manifold on their 1g.

Mike puts it rather bluntly, but he is right. (:

The only engines that used different manifolds were the 1.8L 1G's, and the NT 2G's. There's also a lot of inexpensive headers out there for the NT's. Maybe this is what you were looking at?

The engine block has been undergoing constant revision, but it's mostly smaller internal things. It sounds like you're relying on the dealer to do everything for you. You can't do this with these cars. Even if you can't do the work yourself, you HAVE to know enough so that they can't BS you! So that if they say, "Impossible, this doesn't fit." You can either tell them what they're doing wrong, go see for yourself, or scream at them for not even attempting it.

I got this from CDN Tire once when I gave them a used O2 sensor to install. I came back for the car, and it wasn't done. The guy said "It's the wrong sensor. It won't fit." because the sensor part of it wasn't as large as the OEM sensor was. The rest of the conversation was,

"Does it have the same threads?"
"Err...Yes."
"Does it have the same connector?"
"Err...Yes."
"Then it FITS! Take 10 minutes to install it!!!"
"But it's not the same..."
"Don't want to hear about it! Install it!"

Had I not known, they would have tried to sell me one of their sensors. (:

I'm sorry I don't know enough about these cars. But this is what this bulletin board is all about, right? I am new to the import/sports car scene, as everything I've owned were American cars and my last vehicle was a Jeep YJ. I did ALL the work on it myself, so I'm not completely daft. I was into off-roading and such. A lot of opposites really: giving it a 2" lift instead of a drop, etc.

So, could I install a 95-99 header, even though the companies that make them say they won't fit? I would like to try, but I doubt there is a market for a 1G manifold. ie - I couldn't sell it to recoup some of my losses.

Sorry for being a pain!
No, I have never relied on the dealer for anything, except this manifold - and only because I couldn't find an aftermarket header after phoning every shop in the Toronto and Hamilton areas. I was not looking at Non-Turbo manifolds. The dealers stock 2 different 1G turbo manifolds. And them's the facts!

Troy, thank you for explaining everything to me, even though I seem to have annoyed you. I can understand - I know you probably go through this with every new person.

Annoyed? Hell, no! No idea where you got that idea from. I sounded that way because what annoys me are the bloody dealers and mechanics around that are almost incompetent, and try to take 'normal' people for all they can get out of them...

I find the 2 part numbers for 1G turbos a bit hard to believe. The heads and turbos are identical, so the manifolds should be as well (The intake manifolds can be different, though).

Troy... I gots my 2G mainfold (no cracks but no proting) for $75 US off the Trader . Once in a blue moon a cheap one comes up.

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Quadcylla
92 Laser RS-T FWD

Got my 2G mani for $175US inc porting. Pretty good....

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'90 Laser RST

What?!?! Chris what are you doing? First I hear you're thinking about getting a 16G and now your've got a 2G manifold? You and I are gonna have to have a battle of the Tri-Cities race this year at the track just so there is no confusion about who is the quickest DSM in the area .

Well, unfortunately, I have to go to the dealer (referred to as SATAN?) again! I wish I didn't. TRUST me. Monday morning they are going to have a look at my xfer case leak. The recall was done about 2 months before I bought it, but it's leaking bad. And that's why it was locking up on the highway, I think. They told me since the recall has already been done, there's nothing more they can do. I told them Chrysler said it was a lifetime warranty on this repair, and they agreed to look at it.

HAHA Mike Ive already got a ported 16G, ported 2g exhaust mani, GrEEdy Type R BOV, and when I get that sh!t on Im gettin LIP, UIP, FMIC and fuel pump while Im at it HAR HAR HAR!! Think you'll still take me though...what with those 550 injectors and AFC oh well.........

And dont count Arpa out (or Martin for that matter) looks like hes out for the quick DSM in the Tri-Citys. Think we'll all have to go out and do some arse kickin

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'90 Laser RST

[This message has been edited by Chris Wyatt (edited January 26, 2001).]

Bring it on! Once I get my U.I.P. and fuel pump, I'll smoke all your asses with my 14B powered monster!

Hahaha... you go girls . This should be a good year for a bunch of us then.

It's too bad the Nova Scotia DSM's are still faster... (:

*Ahem* Anyway, go for it, Marty, but don't expect a fair fight. My advice would be to get in touch with DOT's safety division and explain to them that there is a safety-related recall, explain what the recall is supposed to do, explain what it is NOT doing, and explain that Chrysler refuses to fix it as they maintain that it is 'fixed'. Then ask him to send you something in writing to the effect that if you die in a crash caused by this, DOT will have no responsibility whatsoever from their failure to enforce this issue. Then go to the media. (:

All i gotta say is G-PUMPER !!!!!! Will rock a 20G and laugh circles around a 16G , and all ur looking at is about a fraction more than a ported 16G.

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[img]http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View...p;p=33403642&Sequence=0&res=high[/img]

Damn! Is it getting hot in here, or that my explosive turbo power coming right through the firewall!?! ;]

Hee hee... looks like things are heating up here... and all over a little turbo talk. Actually... i'm not much impressed by any of these turbos yet... do any of them run ball-bearings? Do the Franks!?

I want my turbo to be quick, cool and snappy... 300hp is my target, but not at the expense of lag. I want LESS LAG than the 14G.

Marty, (copyjerk?). That issue with your transfer-case brings back cold chills. I went through ALL THAT (still am).. and it ain't no fun. Makes me mad just thinking of it... but i don't want to get into it here...

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Martin Q
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Dk Blue '90 TSI AWD (grinding Xfer case)

Tommy, what is a G-Pumper?

Its a mitsu centre cartrige mitsu exhaust turbine housing,with a garret compressor housing with a BIG garret wheel.

Its a hybrid ,best of both worlds ,the fast spool up of the mitsu and the high flow of the garret TO4 E turbos.



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[img]http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View...p;p=33403642&Sequence=0&res=high[/img]

Maybe in another year or two...or three. (: Hell, my car is 11 years old this year...