To the operator of the motorcycle when they find him?

For those who are unaware of what happened, at approx 12:30am some cops were trying to pull over a motorcycle that the Durham Region Police chased onto the 401, the motorcycle pretended to slow down then gunned it, the girl on the back couldn't hold on and fell off the motorcycle and was ran over by another car. She died on site (condolences to the family).

My question is what does everyone think about this situation? Clearly the motorcycle operator is at fault, what do you think he will get as a charge(s). Do you all think that the police are also at fault and played a role in the death of this woman? It is written that police officers are not supposed to engage in high speed chases due to the risk of civilians / innocent bystanders can be killed, so do you think that the police will catch some heat from this? They did chase the rider from in the city to the 401.

Regardless, it is a shame to hear about anyone losing their life due to someone being careless. r.i.p

Dangerous driving causing death.

Is it called dangerous driving?

What a douche. I hope they throw the book at him.
Too bad his girl had to pay the ultimate price for his stupidity.
R.I.P.

I don't think the cops are innocent in this either. Cops are supposed to get the plate, that's it, they are never to engage in a high speed chase with a motorcycle.

^^ says who? Where in the "rule book" does it say police can't engage in pursuit? I know MY police force has a no pursuit policy, but that's adopted from DND A-SJ-100-004, MPPTP. Go ahead. Blame the cops. It was the driver of the motorcycle that killed the girl. Also after reading several news articles regarding this story, none say that police were engaged in pursuit.

Regardless, to the innocent life lost, my condolences.

Someone who gives a person a gun to shoot someone is just as to blame as the person who pulls the trigger.

It's a law in Ontario that cops are not to engage in high speed pursuit with vehicles for this exact reason. It was passed a long time ago, in the 90s. It was a durham regional police officer, on the 401, following a motorcycle, it was a chase. They may not say it, but it was a chase.

And this is the exact reason police are not to chase. Lets face it, if a cop chases a motorcycle, either the motorcycle gets away, or someone ends up dead, and unfortunately in this case it was an innocent life who probably had no idea what she was getting herself into when she hopped on the back of that bike.

Show me this law. Show me proof it was a chase. It was the driver of the bike that killed her. Period.

According to your theory, all motorcyclists are innocent and they cannot be held accountable for their actions. Let's blame the inventor of the motorcycle while we're at it, and the manufacturers.. since if the bike didn't exist in the first place this couldn't have happened.

It's negligent vehicular manslaughter in case you were wondering.

Crazy as Brandon, we were just talking about this issue on Friday.

Yes, absolutely, if they used a long pole and pushed the guys hand that was holding the throttle. Are effing kidding me! Tell me how any other human being is responsible for this guys right hand and the brain that controls it! That's your homework assignmnent for tonight.

Seems to me the whole reason you posted this thread was to attempt to gain some sympathy for bike riders (presumably because you're one yourself or aspire to be one when you grow up). Anyone who has sympathy for the guy who killed this passenger is f*cked. You're going to try to convince someone he was somehow coerced into flicking his wrist. Eff anyone who says that.

Yes the driver of the car will have to take some blame but by no means the majority, after all he ran over the girl. In a pursuit, police still have to use care for public safety. Police cannot endanger public safety because they are doing their job, their job is public safety. Here in Alberta, a police detective ran a red light and t-boned a car making a left turn, lights were on but no siren. He killed a boy and the car caught fire. He was charged and the lawsuits continue. Although that been said, just knowing how the driver feels inside is punishment enough. The guilt of living with that is going to be horrible. My condolences to the girls family and the driver.

The story says she was runover by another car...was she run over by a POLICE car? If so maybe the cop has to take SOME blame (but VERY little). NO DOUBT here the blame is on the bike rider. I am guessing a sport bike.

You know, instead of making police chases illegal (IF there is any truth to that), why don't they make the DANGEROUS VEHICLES illegal, and then ENFORCE those laws. If they removed all the sport bikes and RHD cars off the roads, that would remove the dangerous vehicles, and there would be a lot LESS police chases..

My condolences to all involved....and hope they end up catching the rider and he pays full price for his mistake!

Here's a link to the article. Make your own conclusions... this is really very disturbing:
http://www.calgarysun.com/news/canada/2010/08/28/15173301.html

I am not saying that the motorcyclist is innocent, he should get manslaughter at least for this, he was an idiot to run from the cops, he shouldn't have done so, he should have pulled over. But the cops are not to engage in a highspeed pursuit due to the risk of innocent people being killed. I'll try and find where it says this, my dad is a paramedic and is friends with lots of cops and tells me that they are not supposed to engage in a high speed chase in Ontario.

No bike is faster than the radio, and I feel that if the radio was used instead of a pursuit, that maybe this girl could have lived, but these are all assumptions based on the little facts that we are given from the people who were there.

Every vehicle on the road is a dangerous vehicle with the wrong person operating it. Instead of banning supposed "dangerous vehicles", how about removing every driver or rider that speeds, does lane changes without looking, or doesn't use blinkers or doesn't do other things to keep yourself and others around you safe and knowledgeable on what you are going to do.

I was almost killed the other day on my bike because of a moron not checking his blind spot, his mirrors, or using a blinker before ripping out of a turning lane to go straight through an intersection instead of following through with his turn. If he would have hit me, I was doing 60, he would have most definitely cost me my left leg, and probably either paralyzed me, or killed me. So he should have his license removed and be forced to take public transportation for the rest of his life, because HE is more dangerous with that 4000lb vehicle than I am on my 350lb bike.

I am not saying that he deserves sympathy, he does not deserve anyone to go easy on him, he deserves, like I mentioned, manslaughter at least and I hope he sees a ton of jail time for putting someone innocent in danger and causing them their life. But I was also wondering if people thought that the cops who are not supposed to engage in a highspeed pursuit are to blame as well, I have heard the Durham Region Police are taking a lot of heat for this as well, because this is the exact reason they do not want police cruisers engaging in high speed chases.

I don't want it to come off that I believe that the rider deserves sympathy, or a slap on the wrist, because I don't. I would never run from the cops as a rider, and if I was going to speed I sure as hell would never do it with a passenger on the back. I am actually removing my rear seat and pegs because a motorcycle is for me, I am taking my life into my own hands when getting on it, and I would never want to be responsible for causing someone else to lose their life.

But I do believe that the cops are not innocent in this, and I do believe that they should not have chased, gotten the plate number and called it in, it could have saved this girl's life had they not chased.

Thanks Grant, I was wondering what term would be used in his charges, among the multiple other charges he will get I am sure of it, which he deserves for being a moron.

The most disgusting part is that neither he, or anyone else who ran over the body stopped.

rip to the girl, and condolences to the family, it is always a shitty thing to hear when someone innocent loses their life.

In the article I cited, it does not say anywhere that the police were in any type of pursuit. Only that they were following the motorcyclist in the left hand lane and 'signalled' for him to pull over... regardless, who gives a sh!t whether police were pursuant or not. The guy's an idiot, he cost his passenger her life, the blame lays solely, and completely, upon him. Seems to me that the police had the right idea in trying to get this guy off the road in the first place.

From what a witness told me, the cop was chasing the biker, the biker slowed down like he was finally going to pull over, then when then when the cop slowed down, he gunned it and the victim fell off a few seconds after that. Now whether or not this witness is actually full of sh!t, or being truthful is in the air.

Here's a question, if the cop was behind him, and then he gunned it and the passenger fell off the back of the bike, the only car behind the back of the bike would have been the cop, so I am wondering if the cop ran the girl over first.

Either way how it went down, it really is a shame, and this thread was mostly created to see what you all thought the charges that would be laid on the biker would be, as well as if you thought the police were in the wrong.

It's all speculation as to what happened. Once again, nowherer does it say pursuit, and nowhere does it say the cop ran over her. Hell, it doesnt even say the police were following him. And again, like mentioned above, who cares if police were in pursuit or not, the idiot driver killed the innocent girl.

Hey Brandon, why not go become a cop? Seems like you already know the job!

It would be nice to see you do half as many split second decisions as police do in the heat of the moment. You are so quick to judge what could have and should have been done.but fail to realize the sh!t you don't see. You think because you have a bike you have carte blanche against a pursuit? What is the difference between a bike doing 100 in a 40 over a car? I would tend to think the car would be more dangerous.

How can you speculate what was going through the cops mind? Maybe he didn't get the tag? Maybe a pursuit was warranted? Maybe he thought the bike would pull over if he pursuied? Who knows? For whatever reson, the biker didn't pull over because he didn't want to get caught for something on his record, either way, the cops didn't tell the biker to gun it.

I respect bikers, they are definitely their own crowd, but get off your high fracking horse already, you aren't above or better than anyone else because you ride on 2 wheels instead of 4. If you are so worried about getting hit and paralyzed, sell the bike and quit riding. Doesn't matter what you do in life, there are always challenges, big or small. You chose the path, now ride it and quit looking for everyones sympathy or forcing your apathetic views on everyone.

Ya it is speculation, but if a DRP is on the 401, he was following them from regular streets because a DRP cannot pull over or chase someone on the 401, as it is OPP territory.

The whole situation is fucked up, and I believe there is way more to this story than we are getting.

And apparently police do not turn on their cherries until after they have gotten the plates of someone, especially bikers due to the fact that a biker could run.

From what I've read in the local newspaper here, it says that other cars ran the girl over, several cars actually and none of them stopped. Or did many of the witnesses. Very sad and tragic.

Definitely very sad and tragic. What kind of society are we in when people can do these things and NOT stop, animals.

http://fightyourtickets.ca/chase-rules-for-police-motor-vehicles-ontario/

Poor actions by the biker were the initiating cause of tragedy here. F'him for disposing of someone's life so carelessly.

I was stuck in this jammed up traffic listening to 680 news, sick to my stomach as to how impaired some people let themselves get. May she rest in peace. I would have his balls if that were my daughter and I am sure someone will seek out justice lb for lb.

that's a good link Jorge, thanks for that.

Yes they can. Police Services Act says a police officer in Ontario is a Police officer regardless of where they are IN ONTARIO. Any police officer can pull you over on the streets of Ontario. Say for some reason DRP is in Ottawa, they have just as much authority as the Ottawa City Police. Notwithstanding professional courtesy, they notify each other.

Police Services Act, Section 42 (2)

And the link Jorge just posted, not once in there does it say police aren't allowed to pursue. Says that public safety must be considered at all times, but no blanket rule. But I STILL fail to see where it even said anywhere that they were in pursuit. From what I gather, it was a police officer "signalling" to pull over, not giving chase. Even if it was a "pursuit", nothing the police officer did would have been dangerous, unless somehow the police now have telekinesis or some sh!t that he KNEW the biker was going to be a retard.

As for bikers being retarded, I know far too many to say that they are all stupid. But more often than not, I see bikes ripping up the 401 at 160+ passing cars, failing to signal, and weaving between cars on the lines of the lanes. Tell me these bikers aren't stupid? I won't believe you. But I have more common sense and respect for people in general to make the ignorant call of blanketing them all as stupid. (Unlike yourself, blanketing all police as arrogant assholes.) Grow up, and let the damn situation sort itself out.

If a police officer chases a bike with has a passenger on the back, then they were too busy trying to get an adrenaline rush rather than thinking about the safety of the passenger, or the people on the street.

Sure the bike operator wasn't thinking about the safety, but then that is the cops decision to decide what is the safest for that innocent passenger that cannot get off that bike, and the people around them. The cop pursuing that person was a complete idiot.

And from what I understand a DRP cannot pull someone over on the highway unless they follow the person from the regular streets on to the highway, the highway is an OPP jurisdiction, not a DRP. That's why the SIU was escorted and watched by OPP NOT by DRP.

I also said that most are, not all of them. And more often than not, I am right about this. I've met a lot of cops, off duty, and a few on duty, and I've only met a couple hand full that are nice guys. But lets face it, MOST people in the world are assholes. Right now, I am in the age bracket to be harassed by the police, and they do it, when I am 40, and out of the age bracket that I am in now, maybe I will feel differently about them. I give respect to the cops that deserve it, because they do put their life on the line. The cops that do their job properly, not the ones that abuse it.

I also see way more people in control of a vehicle doing sh!t that they shouldn't, not checking blind spots, not signaling, talking on their cell phones, eating, listening to super loud music and singing along with it. When a biker is on the street, they are paying 100x more attention to what is going on around them than a person operating a motor vehicle. A lot of bikers do stupid sh!t, but even more people behind 3000lb vehicles are doing the same sh!t, if not worse.

The point is that everyone makes dumb choices at one point in their life, and that cop that was chasing the bike and the bike operator that took off both made a dumb choice that night. And I believe the life that was cost was 70/30, 70% the biker 30% the cop.

F*ck That. I dont blame the cop for this at all. You keep repeating pursuit and I still don't get What Pursuit ?

From the Toronto SunL

The incident began just after 11:30 p.m. with a Durham officer following two people on a motorcycle in the westbound lanes of the highway, just west of Brock St., Ontario Provincial Police say.

The cop, who was driving a marked police cruiser, claims to have “signalled” the driver of the motorcycle to pull over, OPP Const. Graham Williamson said Saturday.

But instead of stopping, the motorcyclist took off.

As the bike accelerated, the passenger fell off the back, Williamson said.

From this information it clearly says the cop signaled the biker and he took off which caused the passenger to fall. So your blaming the cop 30% for signaling at the driver ? BullSh*t.

Edit: another article from CTV

Police are looking for suspects after a motorcycle passenger was killed on Highway 401 Friday night, moments after police signalled for the bike to pull over.

Moments after. So stop this bullshit about pursuit because there was clearly no pursuit with the limited information we have.

If a DRP police officer is on the highway, he has to have pursued the bike FROM THE CITY ROADS. A DRP officer cannot pull over someone on the highway, unless they pursued them from the city streets. The highway is OPP jurisdiction, it's the same reason why you wont see an OPP officer pulling someone over on a side street in a subdivision.

How often do you see a Durham Region Police car driving along the highway? THEY DON'T, because that is NOT THEIR JURISDICTION. They cannot drive on the highway and pull someone over for speeding, they have to have engaged the suspect prior on city streets and had to pursue them on to the highway. I can't say this enough, that if the DRP officer was on the highway, he pursued them from city streets.

Also, like I said, if a cop sees a bike with an innocent passenger on the back evading and speeding away, chances are he should have gotten the plate and caught the rider later on, chasing someone on a bike, who has an innocent passenger on the back is a bad decision, not as bad as the decision that the motorcyclist made to run from the cops in the first place, but a bad decision nonetheless.

There is a reason why the only news about this has been so vague and hush hush. Same alleged statements for a few days now, no news has gotten any more detailed or any more information since the day that it happened. We know the same vague statements now as we did the day that it happened.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/08/29/15181051.html

http://newsdurhamregion.com/news/crime/article/160798

I'm sure the rest of the details will come out and then we can place blame where it's due. Until then, I refuse to speculate!


They can take the highway just like we can.
How do you know the cop wasn't just going from one part of the city to another? Do you know why he signaled? Those are important questions..
Sure there is "jurisdiction" but there is also "duty". Without knowing why the lights were flicked on in the first place, you are leaving a great deal to speculation.

Hey Eric, I'm no expert as my trade is much different than yours but I'm sure MP's have much different SOP's than civi police right? I have heard on many occaisons by guys in my unit (that have been OPP) that they arent to engage in a high-speed pursuits with a motorcycle because it just encourages the driver of the bike to drive dangerously to evade they police. Like I said I'm not positive but I have not run into a cop car that could successfully pit maneuver a bike without injury/death.

This is what I have heard and by infantry standards (very low) it makes sence to grab the plate number but not to pursue.



Condolences to the family of the deceased.

I am only leaving a great deal to speculation because the people involved in this have also left a great deal to speculation. And I am sure a DRP cruising on the 401 and pulling someone over after just seeing them on the 401 is much like an american police force arresting someone in Mexico. I believe the proper (I may be wrong) way is for the DRP (if he was on the highway just cruising from one part of the city to the next) is to radio dispatch and have dispatch contact the OPP with the suspect details. At least that is what I think.

But you are right Rob, there is a lot of information being left out

Wow, some of you guys are playing devil's advocate, but you're sounding like douche bags. This whole conspiracy theory bullshit is lame when someone is dead because of negligence. Had the guy stopped, nothing would come of this.

And just for a second Brandon, in Ontario a cop is a cop, doesn't matter what "Jurisdiction" he's in. Read the police services act:



Even my force, one that is NOT recognized by the Police Services Act, has a duty to protect when not on our "Jurisdiction". We pull over drunk drivers and excessive speeders in OPP territory, and the OPP thank us for it. When we have them pulled over, we call in the force of "local jurisdiction".

And Luke, yes there is a policy for Military Police that states that MP are not allowed to pursue, we're allowed to catch up for a plate, and then disengage. But that's our own in house policy, from the A-SJ-100-004.

Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out what's being proposed myself. Is it something along the lines of: if DRP had "jurisdiction" (whatever that's supposed to mean) then no one would be dead? Is that what numbnuts is trying to claim? I don't know. Perhaps he can clarify.

You know what I'm beginning to suspect? That numbnuts knows this guy and is somehow trying to present him as a victim (of circumstance? conspiracy? not sure what else). This whole thing seems to rank high on the douchebagery scale.

I think the bottom line is the prick should have just stopped and taken it on the jaw like a man would have. End of story.

No, YOU are speculating a great deal and letting your speculation get the best of you. We aren't allowed to know all the details while the suspect is at large and the SIU is at work. The OPP investigation actually seems to be completed. What you need is patience!