Re: well i gave the Jeep nose job!
[Re: Jay Stacey]
#366184
December 10, 2011 02:07 am UTC
December 10, 2011 02:07 am UTC
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,106 Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Andrew Trapp
Serious Member
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Serious Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,106
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
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Ugh glad you were alright and didn't get thrown out.
I would look into the charges, depending on your insurance, it could impact what they give you based upon what you were doing with it at the time. Careless driving, much like Mike's accident, is a general one-charge-fits-all and doesn't usually hold up very well when challenged, but it takes the time and effort to challenge it with nothing really on your side as hard concrete evidence it was as you say...a he said, she said.
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Re: well i gave the Jeep nose job!
[Re: Jay Stacey]
#366200
December 10, 2011 01:24 pm UTC
December 10, 2011 01:24 pm UTC
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,263 Niagara Falls, Ontario
Ziggy Dietrich
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,263
Niagara Falls, Ontario
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First of all, glad you are OK! Jeep looks a bit of a mess...is it fixable?
As for the charges, I am not so sure like everyone else that this can be easily beaten. The cop has a point. You COULD have stayed behind the little old lady, that would not have been illegal. Your overtake (passing) was legal UNTIL the point where you lost control. I believe the definition of careless driving (at least from about 40 years ago) is something like: "driving in such a fashion as to lose control of the vehicle and thereby endagering someone". You DID lose control, and yourself and possibly the little old lady were endangered.
Nothing personal, and I HOPE you can beat it....just saying, I think it might be pretty tough.
"bluebird" worlds fastest scooter ridden by me "Whitebird" RIP
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Re: well i gave the Jeep nose job!
[Re: Jay Stacey]
#366220
December 10, 2011 09:33 pm UTC
December 10, 2011 09:33 pm UTC
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 4,783 Belleville Ontario
Jay Stacey
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OP
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ya, I agree but im thinking now that it had tobe black ice, cause the road was just wet from like 2 hours before that and there was a cold wind in that part of the road. It was +2 out so i had no reason to believe the roads were slippery. I just started to turn the s teering wheel and accelerate, and the whole jeep decided to start to drift sideways. At that point there was no getting control back. Im gonna fight, definatly dont think I should be paying $450. The roof on the jeep has a width long crimp in it, and the one headlight left, is 6 inches more to the right then it used to be.
11.45@125, stock bottom end 6bolt 2g head. 272 hks cams. Holset hx35 Backyard biult!!
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Re: well i gave the Jeep nose job!
[Re: Jay Stacey]
#366231
December 11, 2011 03:42 am UTC
December 11, 2011 03:42 am UTC
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,749 Belleville, Ontario
Ryan Laliberte
No-Lift-To-Shift.... Stock. :)
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No-Lift-To-Shift.... Stock. :)
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Posts: 10,749
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Wow Jay, glad to hear you're ok man!
As for the charges, fight it but at the same time I as well agree with the cop. You are still guilty until proven innocent, so its up to you to prove it. Maybe Points or HELP could give you a hand?
AWDAuto 1996 TSi AWD Automagic12.24 @ 113 - Small 16G FP Green HTA - 11.42/123 Team Pump Gas and Meth RTMRacing - Your Canadian source for DSM Parts "Every moment you live is pregnant with the next moment of your life" --Jim CarreyLast Login: September 28, 2021
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Re: well i gave the Jeep nose job!
[Re: Jay Stacey]
#366234
December 11, 2011 04:04 am UTC
December 11, 2011 04:04 am UTC
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 4,783 Belleville Ontario
Jay Stacey
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Im thinking help too,
And ya, If I dont get enough back to buy something reliable, then Its going into the Talons.. If I get anything.
11.45@125, stock bottom end 6bolt 2g head. 272 hks cams. Holset hx35 Backyard biult!!
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Re: well i gave the Jeep nose job!
[Re: Ryan Laliberte]
#366246
December 11, 2011 05:27 pm UTC
December 11, 2011 05:27 pm UTC
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,287 ontario
Sven Hebbard
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ontario
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Wow Jay, glad to hear you're ok man!
As for the charges, fight it but at the same time I as well agree with the cop. You are still guilty until proven innocent, so its up to you to prove it. Maybe Points or HELP could give you a hand? ARE YOU HIGH... he is the isn't the one charging someone they have to prove HE was at fault without a resonable doubt, Ask for a disclosure on the case and I bet money you will see the cops have nothing. When you are the the accuser or one laying the charges you have to prove WITHOUT a REASONABLE DOUBT that the defendent is guilty. I got arrested and charged by 3 cops criminaly for stunt riding and my lawyer maybe said a hand full of words well the cops couldn't prove Me guilty, So I walked out of there with nothing but the cops oweing ME money. Just keep your story straight and don't change it, THe cops will mess up.
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Re: well i gave the Jeep nose job!
[Re: Jay Stacey]
#366248
December 11, 2011 05:40 pm UTC
December 11, 2011 05:40 pm UTC
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,263 Niagara Falls, Ontario
Ziggy Dietrich
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Posts: 7,263
Niagara Falls, Ontario
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I think you are referring to criminal matters, Sven. The highway traffic act offences are not "beyond a reasonable doubt", at least not here in Ontario. Even civil cases are not "beyond a reasonable doubt" but "preponderance of the evidence".
Ontario IS a police state, and you are guilty until proven innocent. This has been the case for some time now, and the "50 over" laws just drove this home!
As for disclosure: all they need is a picture of his damaged car in the ditch. That, and a cop's "professional opinion" that he was driving in an unsafe manner would be good enough for any judge in Ontario.
"bluebird" worlds fastest scooter ridden by me "Whitebird" RIP
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Re: well i gave the Jeep nose job!
[Re: Jay Stacey]
#366249
December 11, 2011 05:57 pm UTC
December 11, 2011 05:57 pm UTC
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 4,783 Belleville Ontario
Jay Stacey
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Ya, that is what the cop said to me when i told him i did nothing wrong. But I will stick to the fact that i was not in a unsafe cercumstance and In my opinion it was a safe and legal overtake... untill I hit some ice or something. I could have been more cautious but I had ne reason t believe that that part of the road was slippery when it was +2 out and the rest ofthe roads were fine.
The stupid thing is, if there wasnt a 4foot drop i would have just ended up in a ditch or snow bank and been able to drive away. but because I flew off a 4 foot ledge,I gained more momentom.
So its the citys fault for not putting gardrails hehe.
11.45@125, stock bottom end 6bolt 2g head. 272 hks cams. Holset hx35 Backyard biult!!
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Re: well i gave the Jeep nose job!
[Re: Jay Stacey]
#366258
December 11, 2011 09:38 pm UTC
December 11, 2011 09:38 pm UTC
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,263 Niagara Falls, Ontario
Ziggy Dietrich
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Posts: 7,263
Niagara Falls, Ontario
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and In my opinion it was a safe and legal overtake There is the problem right there. "In your opinion". In the Ontario courts, your opinion doesn't count anywhere NEAR as much as a "trained professional" police officer who has no reason to lie. His opinion will win out over yours for two reasons: a) he is a trained professional police officer with no reason to lie b) you DID end up in the ditch, confirming that HIS opinion that it was UNsafe is the superior opinion. Again, really HOPE you beat this....but wouldn't hold my breath....
"bluebird" worlds fastest scooter ridden by me "Whitebird" RIP
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Re: well i gave the Jeep nose job!
[Re: Wade Harrison 2]
#366274
December 12, 2011 03:28 am UTC
December 12, 2011 03:28 am UTC
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 481 Trenton, Ontario
Garrett Logan
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Trenton, Ontario
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I got rid of my Jeep Liberty was the tendency for the rear end to come around at any stab of the throttle in slippery conditions This is good enough for me...don't know how that would fly in court, but i lost control once in my mom's Ford Explorer Sport...same thing, short wheel base, 4.0L RWD, and slippery roads...i wasn't passing though, i was just going around a mellow bend...i sort of kept it on the road but basically drifted the bend, but i was 75% over the yellow line, if there was an on-coming vehicle, i'd probably not be here saying this..
Sorry, I'm a Lancer kid.
13.8 @ 100 (12's next?)
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Re: well i gave the Jeep nose job!
[Re: Jay Stacey]
#366278
December 12, 2011 11:13 am UTC
December 12, 2011 11:13 am UTC
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 4,783 Belleville Ontario
Jay Stacey
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unforunatly on the sun visor, it actually says avoid arrupt manuvours. So I dont think i can blame it on the jeep.
But just to add, the awd sucks on it too! in awd, not 4wd, it struggles to make parking lot turns, thats why i never put it in awd. Even in rwd the rear factory limited slip seems to have been designed by idiots!
You know, I dont recomend anyone buy a liberty!
11.45@125, stock bottom end 6bolt 2g head. 272 hks cams. Holset hx35 Backyard biult!!
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Re: well i gave the Jeep nose job!
[Re: Ziggy Dietrich]
#366307
December 12, 2011 04:56 pm UTC
December 12, 2011 04:56 pm UTC
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 61 Mississauga, Ontario
Rob Martin
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Posts: 61
Mississauga, Ontario
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There is one thing that will probably help you, and I'm sure any of the paralegal firms will tell you this if you hire them.
So Careless driving in HTA says: Every person is guilty of the offence of driving carelessly who drives a vehicle or street car on a highway without due care and attention or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway and on conviction is liable to a fine of not less than $400 and not more than $2,000 or to imprisonment for a term of not more than six months, or to both, and in addition his or her licence or permit may be suspended for a period of not more than two years. 2009, c. 5, s. 41.
Key phrase is "Without due care and attention" Basically, you don't have to be a perfect driver, and never crash, you just have to have done everything that an average driver would be expected to do. If you were passing in a designated zone, and passing under the speed limit, then you didn't do anything that anybody else would not have done, and therefore you were not being careless.
Although it does seem like "Guilty until proven innocent" it isn't entirely. Since the police officer wasn't there, how can he prove you did something that was "Careless" all he saw is your car off the road. Even though he is a professional and unbiased etc. He didn't see it so he can only speculate as to what happened.
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Re: well i gave the Jeep nose job!
[Re: Jay Stacey]
#366312
December 12, 2011 06:19 pm UTC
December 12, 2011 06:19 pm UTC
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,263 Niagara Falls, Ontario
Ziggy Dietrich
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,263
Niagara Falls, Ontario
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The police don't need to SEE what happened, or they would be useless in pretty much EVERY accident. They arrive on the scene AFTER the fact and DEDUCE what happened from the circumstances. They even have specialists for this: "reconstructionists". It is still the preponderance of the evidence. If you are standing over a corpse with a smoking gun, you are going to be found guilty whether anyone saw you shoot or not. Maybe not the best example, as that is criminal law, where "beyond reasonable doubt" applies...but I think you get the idea.
The argument is still simple...Did the majority of the drivers on the road end up in the ditch that day? No, yet you did. Therefore, you did not use "due care and attention". If you DID use due care and attention, and circumstances were REALLY that unpredictable, then the majority of the cars on the road that day should have ended up in the ditch.
Rob, I think you summed up the meaning of the HTA pretty well, even the actual wording is a LITTLE more complicated...
Maybe you could amend that to: "everyone is guilty if the cop says so".
"bluebird" worlds fastest scooter ridden by me "Whitebird" RIP
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Re: well i gave the Jeep nose job!
[Re: Ziggy Dietrich]
#366315
December 12, 2011 06:48 pm UTC
December 12, 2011 06:48 pm UTC
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,106 Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Andrew Trapp
Serious Member
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Serious Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,106
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
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I might be dreaming, but the argument I would use is: does every vehicle in the ditch after a police officer drive by have a ticket on the window for careless driving?
If Jay, at any other portion of the road, just glided into the ditch on all fours, would he had been fined? Do the police follow tow trucks around? If a mechanical fault, such as a tire blowing, is the fault of the loss of control, is that careless driving?
With a driver's abstract mostly clean, it would be clear to show that x many years of driving, the experience I had, my observations, there was no indication that my vehicle would respond in the way that it did. The vehicle was out of control - I was not out of control of the vehicle.
Prosecuting on this is, as already been said, guilty until proven innocent. It really seems like they can pull anybody over at any time and premeditate that they might be in an accident no matter what they were doing at the time.
Unfortunately, you are in Ontario which, by the sounds of it, varies greatly from Saskatchewan. As much as the deducing what happened, that would be more at 'who is at fault'. In this case though, the whole incident is fully clear, except for the non-observable action just before the loss of control, which would be the point of debate. How, in a court of law, is the police officer going to prove you were driving with 'undue and attention' just before the accident? Just because you ended up in the ditch should not be enough, but since I don't know the precedents and etc... it may be enough.
It really seems this 'careless driving' ticket is really getting out of hand really fast, especially since every accident could be appended with one.
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Re: well i gave the Jeep nose job!
[Re: Jay Stacey]
#366347
December 13, 2011 01:43 pm UTC
December 13, 2011 01:43 pm UTC
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,263 Niagara Falls, Ontario
Ziggy Dietrich
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,263
Niagara Falls, Ontario
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If you can get the insurance companies "professional opinion" in writing, that could go a LONG way in court on the charges. Your own word is worth basically zero to the judge, but someone who investigates accidents all day long for a living....they might be believed!
Good luck!
"bluebird" worlds fastest scooter ridden by me "Whitebird" RIP
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Re: well i gave the Jeep nose job!
[Re: Rafael Pimentel III]
#366466
December 15, 2011 09:51 pm UTC
December 15, 2011 09:51 pm UTC
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,106 Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Andrew Trapp
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Serious Member
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Posts: 1,106
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
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Sorry to break hearts but companies don't care or take into consideration weather conditions. They take into consideration charges, if charges aren't there, what do they have to base their premiums off of? This isn't about the insurance rate increase, yet, but staving the charges of careless driving. The court cares about weather conditions and circumstances etc...
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