Currently I have a 150 pump with progressive meth, I am running my meth from my washer res and using that internal pump to feed the Devils own 150 pump. (wired to come on at the same time the Devils pump gets signal for time to spray)
Now the questions
1) when I start to hit areas where the boost hits the progressive spraying area the light on my controller seems to flash not stay on solid (middle light) is this normal or is this a sign that things are wrong?
I am not tuned for meth just spraying as a safety for the moment)
2)Since I am Canadian and stupidly all in my excitement of getting methed up I decided to go with using my own washer tank not thinking that come winter time I might need to spray my windshield...
I assume if your tank is close to your pump its gravity fed but if your tanks in the back of your car and you choose to go with a sumped 2.5 gallon tank that the sump pump pushes the meth to where ever your pump is located?? Am I correct in this assumption?
Thanks in advance for who's time I use up on these probably simple questions

Jason, The guy (Chance is his name)at Devils Own is REALLY helpful. They also have their own forums, and if no-one chimes in here, I am SURE you would get answers there....

That was going to be my suggestion aswell, you most likely will have to email them and you should hear back writhing 48 hours.. I am very curious as to what he says in regards to this....

Yeah I got an answer but I really cant say that it was all of what I was looking for info wise. He just said mount the pump to the tank in the trunk and run meth hose to the hood area they can spray 25 feet with out issues. But I am torn on battery relocating to the rear of my car and then mounting the 6.5 meth tank on the battery area if it will fit.
I dont know if I should go with the tank with sump cause I am not clear as to what it will offer me in the way of difference. However the tank seems like it might be the right trick anyways...

I know people mount it in the trunk, but I would never do that in my car. Spraying meth is such a cheap crude system as it is and many things can easily go wrong. There is soo much stuff that can go wrong from the reservoir all the way to the nozzles and I think I have been through it all. That's why I have idiot proofed my methanol injection system the simplest way as possible.

I have talked to a lot of guys who have meth kits hooked up, and they think its running fine, but wonder why they still knock and the car runs like crap. I like to give advise, but can't force people to change their setup. At the end of the day, I don't really care if you blow up your car from a meth related failure

I don't feel like typing up all the FAIL points in a meth kit, but if you search you might just find it

Well Reza why not try to give some advice, I am a person who listens to things not just on here asking questions for the sake of keeping threads alive.
If you need any information about my current system please feel free to ask I will gladly offer up any info that might help you help me in my goals of a solid working car.
As for the moment Meth is only a safety net not tuned for it as I am just in the process of putting everything together and just have a solid 19lb base map.
I want the system to be safe and long term safe.

Reza is right. I too have my pump and reservoir in the trunk, but I will be moving it this tear and "failsafing" my kit.

You guys are really good and not telling us what the "right" way of doing things is. Reza how do you have it setup and Ryan how are you going to have it setup.

And you guys are good at searching for information

I'd love to give you guys advice, but since I have already discussed this before and have been into details of the weak points, I would suggest you search and find that information on this forum

PS: My meth kit from reservoir to nozzles has a total of maybe 4 feet of line, thats all.

Yeah I feel like I just asked to sleep with someones sister...on their wedding night.
There is a reason you ask these questions on a forum that you have come to trust its to gain some ground over just guessing when you can talk to experienced knowledgeable and more than anything trustable people.

Well I am sitting at work right now, pretty busy with other things, yet I am still trying to help with meth questions. Maybe I should just shutup and not post at all, and get back to my 9-5 job. Mods can you please delete my posts in this thread.

Geez, can't anyone use the search button and post up all the valuable info I have posted about meth kits in the past?

http://www.ca.dsm.org/forums/ubbthr...eth+injection&Search=true#Post354794

Actually, I remember this thread, and I was "trying" to follow it.

Clearly I failed. Still a good read. lol

Thanks Michael, that was easy

Here's more info guys:

http://www.ca.dsm.org/forums/ubbthr...Words=shurflo&Search=true#Post312474

Actually I had to rummage through a few pages before I came across it, and I'm in the middle of my lollipop break.

I kid you not. Leftover from halloween. Muah ha ha ha ha!

Receptions' supply not mine.

sounds like this 4 feet of line is shoved up your ass i kid i kid!!

You try to offer advice, and the response you get "Can you please offer advice"

Stupid DSM newbie morons, the usual LOL

Ya I kid too bud!

LOL

If and when I decide to go METH, I'll bookmark this page now!!

LOL +1 I know I will be doing meth just not sure when

ok Now this answered a lot of my questions, educated me on a few other things but one simple question
Tanks are they just a simple gravity feed? Is there a distinct advantage to the unit with the sump pump?

So the check valve is something that I didnt have and will be putting into my mix and if all goes well I should only have a couple feet of hose in total.
Ziggy Reza in the past brought up a great idea with the clear hose is this something that you can bring in? I rember having lines like this in my TDI just as fuel got to the engine that would collect air bubbles if there was a fault.

Reza, We talked about this before, months ago during the summer. I got the recomended fittings, I got the clear line, I got the proper check valves. The only issue is the trunk thing.

I simply DONT HAVE ROOM under my hood for a reservoir and a pump. Is this REALLY a factor if I take all the other precautions in setting up the system?

Edit:

I was thinking it would be hard to check for air even with clear lines while its plumbed under the carpet and what not. Im guessing thats why you want it short.

Im trying to think of a way to check for air bubbles and prime the system while not being able to see 75% of it.

Much better folks
Guys you can get the clear line from princess auto, hydraulic section. I think $10 got me a roll that I won't even use in my lifetime.
There is no need to run a sump pump, but I guess there is no harm in running one either, as long as it is hooked up right. It is just an extra variable when you have it all running.

Rob, I know how you pay a high attention to detail. I think you'll be fine, just keep an eye on it. Just keep in mind that any air entering after the reservoir WILL cause problems. If you have ironed that out, you'll be fine. The Shurflo pump is a fluid pump, it doesn't like to pump air.

Yup, that's why I like it short. As short as possible.

So remember guys: everything can leak, from the fittings to pump to check valve. Most importantly pull your Shurflo pump apart and RTV it all back together. With the vehicles vibration and some time, it will start leaking out the housing eventually or air will enter.

Another thing to keep in mind: Pump should be higher than tank, and check valves and fittings should be higher than the pump. Gravity can work wonders with a bad check valve

My sump has its own pump, feeding the devils own pump, with a check valve, and it sits higher than the pump.

I also have a second check valve right before the nozzle. Still problematic with gravity?

You should be fine with your check valves. I have seen the check valve go bad, recently in Helder's car. Just remember only one check valve after the pump. The pump can only crack open one.

I tried a check valve per nozzle once, and that didn't work too well at all. So pump to single check valve, then split it into whatever number of nozzles you plan to run.

Wouldnt you want the sump HIGHER than the PUMP? If there was any air betwen the pump and sump, you would want it to go AWAY from the pump thus keeping the tank HIGHER, no?

Good tip, I was considering this.

The main reason I like to keep the tank at the lowest point is if something were to go retarded I don't want it draining into the intake. No matter how you have it setup, once air gets in the system doesn't operate properly.

Good to know. Im ok there. My system has the nozzle at the highest point. The check valve to the nozzle is also higher than everything else.

The next highest point is the tank, with the pump being the lowest.

But like I said, Im hoping the sump with its own pump and check valve as an added air bubble fail safe is going to keep me out of problems.

If I cant get it to work properly, I'll scrap the whole setup and look for a possible battery relocation and move my setup to the front.

Well I'd probably trust your setup more than anyone else's. Like I said, I know how you pay attention to the fine detail

One thing I learnt from experience was that whenever I started seeing random knock after I had it tuned good with meth spraying, it ALWAYS had to do with the meth kit not functioning right. Even at times when I thought it was perfectly fine, I always found something wrong when I inspected it further.

Just out of curiosity, whats the life expectancy of the lines? particularly the problems with sucking in air or leaking at the push lock fittings?

The lines are polypropylene, totally meth compatible. You don't need to worry about those.

The problem is with the push to connect fittings. Its the rubber buna seal in them that you have to worry about. All my push to connect fittings have Nitrile seals in them, better than EPDM. I haven't had any problems with my meth kit for over 3 years now, and this is with meth sitting in them all winter.

A little bit of water (5-10%) takes the corrosiveness of meth away. 100% meth will eat through the buna seal in cheasy fittings in no time.

Before the pump, it will suck in air. After the pump, it will leak meth.

I remember making a note in my iphone after this conversation we had.........

Nitrile is what I got I should add my fittings are not push lock (I tend to call them that) but rather instant connect.

By pure luck, we are a vendor to a big company called SMC, and we have a large variety of those things they gave to us in a big variety cabinet for machine building.

Sounds like you are going to have a stout meth system Rob! I like it. I've always thought about moving away from push to connect fittings, but haven't had any problems since I switched over to the Nitrile seal ones.

Atleast now I know where to get good fittings from if I ever need any

I'm actually worried! I was reading thru some of those old posts and u said an air bubble won't push past a check valve.

My boss is a hydraulics/pneumatics guy and he says air bubbles sometimes won't climb to the high spots and get stuck at some low areas as well.

How do u bleed the air past a check valve if the bubble won't pass it?

put in a tee and a bleader valve off the tee.?

hey if i tee,d off the line before the check valve.. could i run it into a pressure gauge in the car? would this give me a pressure i can keep an eye on? if the pressure goes down.. then its leaking... if the pressure goes up.. its getting clogged or theres a bubble.

Right, air can't crack the check valve open. So if you pick up air in the system, forget about the meth spraying right when your going balls out

Best would be to bleed the lines with the check valve off, then install it afterwards(this is what I do). Test the system, pressurize the lines, and check for air in the lines. If there is no air, your good. Just hope it stays like that.

IMO there is no need for a sump or check valve before the pump. If you do want to run one, I'd make sure it's a free flowing check valve that does not need like 15psi to crack open like the one that comes in the Devils Own kit(which is meant to be run after the pump).

This seems to be a lot of great info taken clips from other posts reffered to in this
I will try to clean this up and maybe someone can make a sticky of a Meth info posting to help with this in the future.
These clips are from reputiable people on this forum

What pump should I be using

A 150 psi pump will be fine, though 200 psi is better. I would assume that the Shurflo pumps that your friend sells might be the same as the Princess Auto ones. Its the same Shurflo pump, except that the pumps you get with a methanol injection kit already have epdm seals in it.

Check the see if the ones he has have epdm seals. Also, the fittings look the same as pnematic ones and hydraulic ones that are meant for water only. If you run methanol through them, they will leak in no time, especially if you run more meth than water.
Do I need a check valve?
You will also need a check valve with meth compatible seal, tank, nozzle holder, nozzles, bung, or washer to seal it up. Not to mention a pressure switch or way of controlling the meth.

Almost makes a Devils Own kit from Ziggy worth it. They work fine with a 50/50 mix as advertised. If your going to run more meth, I would upgrade the fittings or just do it anyways.

The plastic/polypropylene fittings with GOOD seals are pretty cheap. In the links I provided they come in packs of 10.

So the key is basically if you piece it together yourself, make sure you know what seals all the components have. 0 to 30 psi pressure switch that comes with the devils own kit
Initially you should just go with 1 or 2 nozzles post turbo. I run a single nozzle kit from http://www.coolingmist.com. I have the nozzle mounted between the BOV and throttle body. You will notice ALOT more torque out of your 4G63T even with one nozzle. If you run a single nozzle the 150 psi pump is plenty. You'll want to run a 200+ psi pump with 2 nozzles especially if you mount the pump in the trunk. I run a 50/50 meth/H2o mix.

check valve won't leak if it has true EPDM seals in it that are meth compatible. That is the only fitting I am reusing as well.
Only one check valve per pump should be used, only one will crack open and the other will just drip. Did a little research and learned not to use more than one check valve per pump.


I went through a handful of those fittings before I upgraded to polypropylene fittings with 100% nitrile seals in them that are better than EPDM. I have not had to replace any of these fittings so far.

I found that some of the fittings that came with the kit, were similar as the ones you find at princess auto, intended for pneumatics, not hydraulics. They will fail in a matter if days.

Also, all my lines are clear and the whole system only runs about 5 feet of line. I would never run the black line that comes with the kit, and never would I run it from the trunk.
Clear line will help you look for air bubbles in the system before the check valve. If you see any air before the check valve, there is a problem. Also check valve cannot crack open with air.

Also just found out recently the screws tend to work loose on the shurflo pumps, common problem. The whole body of the pump will leak fluid out. I opened up the pump to figure out shurflo does not make any seals for the top hat to the body. They plastic portions of the pump are just machined flat and screwed in tight to create a seal against the metal portion of the pump. You need to pull apart the pump and rtv it back together, and locktite the 6 screws to ensure a good seal.

These are the failure points and if your not noticing them, you may not be testing it regularly. I usually hit the switch at idle and watch all the lines pressurize, and make sure there are no leaks. Also taking the nozzles off, and watching them spray in air, is a good way to check to see if its pumping right, and spraying well.

You won't find leaks while driving the car, it evaporates very quickly. If you installed the meth kit, and it ran great with no knock and higher boost, but you are running into issues now with knock and inconsistency, definately look into these things....
I use these fittings:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/pro...ings-_-fittings

They have many different push to connect tube fittings in SS, acetal, or polypropylene in FKM, Nitrile, or EPDM seals. Any of them will do, FKM being the most chemical resistant.

The polypropylene were the cheapest and did the job for me, but they don't seem to offer them in nitrile seals anymore. They say 150 psi max, but I wouldn't sweat it running higher than that. They've been holding up just fine on my car for a year.

If you want to spend the $$$ you can buy the fancy SS ones, or look into these with good seals:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/1PFK4
http://www.hofmannfluidpower.com/fitting/push-in-fitting.htm#nickel_specs



Here's a chemical compatibility chart for seals:
http://mdmetric.com/tech/rbrcompat1.htm


The fittings that you get from snow performance, or the new SS ones that Devils Own offers, seem to be the good ones.

_________________________

Do you spray pre turbo or only after turbo? (this to me sounds like more advanced Meth 201)

Do not spray meth pre-turbo! Injection pre-turbo should only be water! Meth alone won't make "wet compression" work. You need water. Meth evaporates too quickly (you want flash vaporization at the compressor blade tips) and methanol removes only 1/3 of the heat of water. You cant get the map to "stretch" with just meth. What I mean by "stretch" is you are essentially "stretching" the compressor map making it more efficient. You can essentially make a smaller turbo flow more than its rated for! Opps, do I say too much, lol Ideally you would want use 2 systems. That's the way I would do it. I would have seperate water, and meth tanks, and 2 pumps. Pre-turbo injection can drastically reduce intake temps allowing for more timing advance. Plus meth injection post-turbo will give you a nice octane allowing further timing and boost. That would make for a very efficient pump gas set-up, and give you a free memebership to Team Pump Gas Canada.

What do you you guys suggest the minimum distance to be between the meth nozzles and the IAT?
It doesn't matter, anywhere after the meth nozzles is fine. On the other hand the change in intake temps I see with meth spraying during a pull is phenomenal I love how accurate the gm iat is.

I'm glad you took the time to sum it up Jason

Thanks for the sum up Jason, lots of useful information!

Well it looks as if I am going to be moving my battery to the rear of the Talon and locating the large meth tank with sump pump to the battery location as it appears that with my mock up that it will fit with out issues (cardboard mock up placed in where it will call home)
The only reason I am going with the sump unit is the shape I would almost prefer it with out the sump due to excess issues with possible things going wrong.
Troy Bennett who did my install all ready has my check valve in place within two inches of my injector and now once this is in place I will be less than 1 foot of hose

How about dropping your battery down onto the subframe?

Here is the link for a 2g one, for the 1g guys out there how does this differ?
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-parts-fabrication/430531-mounting-battery-subframe.html

I fabbed up a cardboard mock up of the 2.5 gallon tank with sump area. Had a conversation with Ziggy and this tank doesnt have a sump pump (I thought it did) Its just a sump area that makes the liquid go to the lowest area so that you can run it to the brink of empty. This mock up fit in place of my battery box, I did everything to ensure a proper fitment and will follow up with photos. My only concern is that the fill area might fall under my strut bar... I am hoping to try this this weekend

Dropping the battery down onto the subframe I.M.O. is just a bit to lazy.
Once you properly relocate it to the trunk you will never look back or regreat moving it.
Plus with all the space it saves and it also makes a fuel pump reawire a pice of cake




This is befor


This is after look at all the space I have

I have a question, so I already rewired my fuel pump would I just leave it, or would I re re wire it?

I would think you're ok leaving it, seeing as meth kits have adjustability through the nozzles and the electronic controller.

But I'll leave this to the pro's

I would shorten the pumps power wire and hook it up closer to the battery

So a shorter wire to the relay makes for a nice clean install

I also plan on gearing up a meth setup just like Jason's.
Monky see monky do

That's a good point, I was trying to remember everything that I ran through the car and realized it was only that red power wire

So for the rewire you have to run some massive wires from the trunk to the engine bay, where did you run yours? I have heard that there is a place on the passenger side, which would be much nicer than running it through the steering column boot.

What I am doing where I have all ready run a 4 gauge wire to the rear of my car for audio purposes, I am going to use ground dist blocks on both ends the one I have to go from the hood area to all electronics has 2 4gauge in and 4 8 gauge out this will allow me to run a second 4 gauge wire to the key components ie alt. I will have one in the rear that will allow me to create a single ground location with all things audio and the battery it self. I will also be able to mount this front unit in an area where if a boost was ever needed it would be easier to do with just removal of the cover of the block.

I can't seem to find a picture of my complete setup sorry Bryan.
But I drilled a hole and it comes out threw my frame into the engine bay. Right into a distribution block on my fire wall witch you can see in my above picture just under the catch can to the right. And it's a 4 AWG wire running down my passenger side all the way to my trunk. I have in the past fed it out threw with the rest of my wiring harness. I feed all my cars power from that location. You can't miss it it's a big bright blue 4 awg wire

So you drilled a hole right where that block is? Did you make a grommet or have anything that seals the area?

Afermative Bryan just try to get a firewall boot or a ruber grommet to keep it from shorting out down the road if it ever happens to wear threw the wires sheath.

I also used alote of C-cement to help seal it.

similar to this picture

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=19264&d=1157401884

Got you! Thanks for the pic!

There is a plug right behind the battery that you can use on a 1g. Not sure if was intended for the A/C lines since my car didnt come with a/c.

OK so here goes a little bit of a how to guide for people with a 1G wanting to install the large 2.5 gallon tank in their under hood area.

First off you will want to remove the battery and its plastic tray it sits in. I would be careful to see where wires are going and also where they came from as over the years there have been possibly some weird things added.
once removed you should have something like this

I removed my tray metal piece and moved some of the wires under it so that their is less things to get in the way of the tank which takes up all of this space and wants more

just sort of mock things up to make sure that everything will fit, this is where you curse and swear and find out that if your system has a strut bar, it doesn't have one anymore cause two things cant occupy the same space at the same time and the fill hole is right where you wouldn't want it to be... summer time I will see about plastic welding it into a new place on the meth tank.
now for the meth tank

mount the pump in my case upside down so that its gravity feed will help with everything. when putting in the mount screws that come with it dont tighten until all are in place.

mounting the quick connect filter into the lowest and easiest place on the tank

Its a 7/8th hole so we used a hole saw then took the tank outside and used a hose and flushed out the crap that might have gotten in to it. then install the connector
here it is in place

I made sure that this would fit in with out coming into contact with other things in the hood area as that's a busy place. It fit well and allows the sum area to be used properly to ensure that you can suck this tank almost dry if needed ( don't be an idiot its 2.5 gallons keep it topped up it shouldn't need it often) make sure that your 1/4 nylon hose is short as possible with out making any kinks
Now your ready to clean up some of the wiring
This will involve removing the looming and seeing how screwed up the factory was (I have one pair of wires going to the same place crimped together at the ends where they probably should of just used one thicker piece)
I reused grounding spots and removed unused lengths
This is just an example of the ground wire that I removed and just used the original once I pulled it from its path.
I chose to use a Audio grounding block as my power distribution so it would be easier to make sure that I had the right connections and kept it clean. I went with a double 4g in and 4 8g out I used the 4 in from the battery and then the other 4 right out to the starter then ran the pair of 8g wires to the main fuse panal and then the other to the mini fuse panel

measured twice cut once and everything is in place and clean.I will be upgrading my ground wires over the winter time and doing the starter wire probably tonight with audio grade cable it just flows better.
You will have to route this large wire to the back of your hatch area choose a side to go down and DON'T CUT IT UNTIL YOU KNOW EVERYTHING FITS. If you have audio gear this will allow easy connection of it as well in the hatch area.
The 2.5 gallon tank comes with a mounting strap if you look at it its a horse shoe shape with tabs on the ends, I didn't use it in this way I re-bent it and made it work in the area that I went with.
Factory battery mount locations will work with some custom bends and reeming the hole out that gets a new bolt where the long one from the battery is useless.

you can see how I cut the strap and re-bent it to suit my needs.
Mount your tank in place and run your other hose from your pump to your nossle making sure that its higher then the ppump outlet and also putting a check vavle in place as high and close to the nossle as possible (my kit has about 16 inches of hose length)
Make sure to use your wiring instructions to get your meth kit installed properly as different kits have different wiring Progressive vs non progressive.
This was a long job and was not made easier by having a false floor in the truck of my ride. But in the end I think it will be worth it and when your done take a bit of brake clean and spray off those nasty hand prints so it looks good! I was too tired at that time to bother.
Here is hoping this helps anyone out there looking to go this route or hell after reading it maybe it will help you choose another route

So Jay is your tank sitting on your subframe?

You know when you remove your battery and then the plastic container it is held in well my tank sits right on top of that metal bracket, I am sure that one might lower the bracket and get clearance they desire but I only had limited time where this is my only car
Not sure if you can go much lower or not

Yeah you can go a good amount lower but you would have to take the time to remove the charcoal canister

1g's come with a charcoal canister ?

Jason that looks awsome man, any Pictures of the battary relocation ?

LOL, yes. I need to get rid of mine cause right now it's just taking up space.

The issues I foresee with going lower is that the hose from the pump to the tank has very little room for movement where it is at this current time Come spring I might investigate further into this but for now I am quite happy with how she sits.
Battery is tucked into the pass side cubby hole and the false floor is still in place which aids in holding it in place