Re: 2g head 6 bolt block
[Re: Nigel Hap]
#389598
November 28, 2012 07:24 pm UTC
November 28, 2012 07:24 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Caledon, Ontario, Canada
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I know the holes for the head bolts are smaller on the 7bolt so those will have to be opened up. And some water passages are different so you will need to plug/open some.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: 2g head 6 bolt block
[Re: Nigel Hap]
#389601
November 28, 2012 08:08 pm UTC
November 28, 2012 08:08 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Well crank sensor shouldn't be an issue, one of the reasons guys keep the 2g head on a 6 bolt block is so they don't have to worry about it. I am not sure about the oil pump though.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: 2g head 6 bolt block
[Re: Nigel Hap]
#389605
November 28, 2012 09:09 pm UTC
November 28, 2012 09:09 pm UTC
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,106 Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Andrew Trapp
Serious Member
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I know the holes for the head bolts are smaller on the 7bolt so those will have to be opened up. And some water passages are different so you will need to plug/open some. Correct on the head stud holes, however, this is the first time I have heard about water passages having to be fiddled with got any additional information? For the front case, you have three options: a) 6-bolt - no longer can mount 2g crank sensor b) modded 7-bolt - have to machine it to match up the holes, but can use the 2g crank sensor c) 6-bolt hyundai - not doable on an AWD without some voodoo, you need the matching oil pan and it doesn't have the proper clearance The whole front case is all about keeping the 2g crank sensor. The 1g's get that signal from the camshaft sensor. With a stock ECU it is possible to split the signal from the 1g cas to the 2g cam and crank signal. The negative is you'll get a CEL for misfire most likely, with DSM Link, you can choose to ignore that CEL. The 1g cas is capable of providing both signals, however, the 2g cas is not. Theoretically, the 2g setup with the two different sensors is the better system. However, it isn't definitive. People have done great things with feeding the 1g cas to both ECU inputs. What I'm doing with my 2g head, 6bolt block is option 4 - Kiggly racing 6-bolt trigger http://www.kigglyracing.com/parts/cranktrigger.htm. It is meant to give the crank signal to the 2g ECU. This allows me to keep using the 2g cas and have a proper crank signal. So in summary, unless you pick up a kiggly trigger, you need a 1g cas and some modifications to your wiring (or buy a pre-built harness) to do a 6-bolt in a 2g. Actually, all above is kinda missing the mark. To use a 2g head, just the holes on the head have to be bored out a bit to fit the larger head studs. Everything else is exactly the same as a regular "6-bolt in a 2g". The one bonus of using a 2g head is you can use either 2g waterpipe, thermostat housing, and neck OR 1g waterpipe, thermostat housing, and neck.
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Re: 2g head 6 bolt block
[Re: Nigel Hap]
#389606
November 28, 2012 09:17 pm UTC
November 28, 2012 09:17 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Fill or plug the water fitting on the front of the engine block. http://www.roadraceengineering.com/1g2gheadswaptechtip.htm
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: 2g head 6 bolt block
[Re: Nigel Hap]
#389610
November 28, 2012 09:56 pm UTC
November 28, 2012 09:56 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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My bad, found a post that sums it up pretty good 1. did magnus over complicate the oil pump? i've read where a galant oil pump works perfectly. Although it would worry me that a non turbo ouil pump might not have the same flow rate as a oem turbocharged powerplant, is their a difference? what the purpose for keeping the 2g pump, is it for the crank angle sensor?
Magnus used the modified 2g oil pump BEFORE they figured out the 6 bolt CAS can send both the crank and the cam signals. The most common way people do the 6 bolt swap is to use the 6 bolt CAS and remove the 7bolt crank angle sensor since there is no location for it on the 6 bolt oil pump.
2.what parts do i need to keep 2g and or 1g?
2g stuff. Head, tstat housing, water pipe, intake gasket. 1g stuff. block, crank, rods and pistons, water pump, oil pump, oil pan, rear main seal, and any gasket on the lower end. head gasket and exhaust gasket can be from 90-99.
3. motor mounts, is this as easy as just shaving the metal down to fit? similar to the 2g water pump that needs to be used?
You will need a jigsaw or some way to cut off a large chuck of the motor mount bracket. It will be obvious when you go to bolt it on.
4. what compression would my engine be with this setup? and should i get some 2g pistons with wrist pins machined to fit on the 1g rods?
Compression ~178psi for a 2g ~165psi for a 1g
the 2g/1g combo is a proven awesome budget combo. Dont let anyone talk you out of it.
5. i should buy a BSE kit for the 2g? Sure why not, that answer is up to you.
7. which head gasket should i need to buy? i'm most likely going with oem so if you happen to have that part # that would be great. Any head gasket from 90-99 would work. only go MLS if you are getting both the head and block resurfaced for it. How do you know if your surface is good for MLS. TELL the machine shop BEFORE you get it decked. Dont worry about using a OEM composite gasket because with ARPs you can hit 30psi safely (with a good tune and appropiately sized turbo.)
8.is their anything I have missed? The head stud holes in the 2g head will need to be drilled open to accept the 1g headstuds. the 1g head studs are larger than the 2g.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: 2g head 6 bolt block
[Re: Nigel Hap]
#389624
November 29, 2012 01:40 am UTC
November 29, 2012 01:40 am UTC
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Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 7,503 Trenton, On, Canada.
Ghislain Goudreau
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Trenton, On, Canada.
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Good day all.
I have been thinking about this for years. Not that I would of been the first one to do so; but as the benefit.
2G Heads have smaller Intake Port. Their design are also slightly different. Both of these "features" allow for better lower end Torque by increasing intake air "velocity". Castings; for whatever reason are also way more "streamline" with the Valve Seats and need way less "Porting Time" to acheave superior (velocity) results.
Those carateristic' can be beneficial up to a certain point. That being said; some have been using a 2G Head on a 6 Bolts with up to 600/700hp without been much of a "choke".
CRV Intake manifold (do not ask me what year) will bolt up and also allow for decent lower end Torque. One extreame would be a 2.4L with a 50 Trim Turbo, 272 Cams for Duty. That thing could be a "torqy" thing but would probably run out of "good steam" at a lower RPM.
A 2G Head on 1G 2.0L Bottom Head can allow for more "top end" Powa. Again some could be surprised how much "wind" can be pushed through a 2G Head.
As for a 2G BottomEnd; They can defenitaly witstand as much as a 6 Bolt BottomEnd. Keep CW out of this topic because some have proved otherwise.
GizThaWiz!!!
Rouge!!!
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Re: 2g head 6 bolt block
[Re: Nigel Hap]
#389635
November 29, 2012 02:17 am UTC
November 29, 2012 02:17 am UTC
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,126 Toronto
Rob Cauduro
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Block the oil squirters with 6mm dowel pins, and build the 7 bolt. The squirters share the same oil feed tapped off the main galley with the main bearings , and they stick open after time. Oil then takes the shortest route, out of the open squirters rather than feeding your mains. Over time this results in a starved thrust, and voila, crank walk.
IMO, the 2g motor is a better design all around, minus the squirters
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Re: 2g head 6 bolt block
[Re: Nigel Hap]
#389636
November 29, 2012 02:19 am UTC
November 29, 2012 02:19 am UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Or you can hunt down a 1999 engine which has fixed squirters.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: 2g head 6 bolt block
[Re: Nigel Hap]
#389651
November 29, 2012 01:56 pm UTC
November 29, 2012 01:56 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
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Good to know Rob, I knew they fixed it but never found out how.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: 2g head 6 bolt block
[Re: Bryan Lawrence]
#389661
November 29, 2012 06:03 pm UTC
November 29, 2012 06:03 pm UTC
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,126 Toronto
Rob Cauduro
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Good to know Rob, I knew they fixed it but never found out how. IMO, they didnt fix it. They just made a change (which was actually less work from a manufacturing stand point and saved machining costs) that really only prolongs the result of starved thrust. Given the squirters DO open up, its supposed to be at Higher RPM, when the engine is boosting, and the oil pressure is high and abundant. At a cold start with your foot on the clutch, or at idle, or at low rpm's, with low oil pressure while pressing the clutch in, theres little to no oil on the thrust if the oil is bypassing the bearings. This is the same for ALL the main bearings. Block the squirters and this pretty much solves the chance of lost oil to your crank main bearings. Compensate the cooling of the pistons with some water or meth spray.
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Re: 2g head 6 bolt block
[Re: Jay Stacey]
#390025
December 04, 2012 10:50 pm UTC
December 04, 2012 10:50 pm UTC
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,873 Los Angeles, California
Alex Akachinskiy
Insane Member
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I read it years ago, prolly never find the artickle again.. Just looked but cant find anything on it. But I did read it. But I been reading that from 1995 on, they were using substandard cranks and mitsubishi did not have alot to do with the dsm world after that point.
Leave it to the domestic market to kill a perfect japaneze car. Sure any car can get it but some are prone to it then others.. enough to get a rep for it. My GMC envoy is known for it aswell.
Just for the record i just read that the 420 was not excepted as a us domestic cause it was produced in mexico. US government actually made DSM label it as an Import. I would agree with you if nothing changed in the engines except where they being assembled. But 95 and up 4G63 uses different internal lubrication system. I strongly support magnus theory on crankwalk http://magnusmotorsports.com/tech-articles/crankwalk-theory/ The 1g blocks use an oil squirter from the main oil gallery where there is always adequate volume and flow. The 2g squirters are taking oil from the main bearing journals which share oil with the mains and connecting rods.
Last edited by Alex Akachinskiy; December 04, 2012 10:52 pm UTC.
1996 Eagle Talon TSi AWD 1999 Eclipse GST Automagic 1991 3000GT VR-4
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Re: 2g head 6 bolt block
[Re: Nigel Hap]
#390026
December 04, 2012 11:14 pm UTC
December 04, 2012 11:14 pm UTC
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,126 Toronto
Rob Cauduro
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Re: 2g head 6 bolt block
[Re: Nigel Hap]
#390048
December 05, 2012 03:50 am UTC
December 05, 2012 03:50 am UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Everything looks good to me except fidanza flywheel. Get the street light or something heavier. Coming from someone who has a DD with a fidanza, it's not the way to go.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: 2g head 6 bolt block
[Re: Nigel Hap]
#390051
December 05, 2012 04:17 am UTC
December 05, 2012 04:17 am UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
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Guess you are lucky. For me I don't like the fast RPM drops, and with my car it's really inconsistent, some days car catches at 1000 and slowly bring it down to 800, some times it goes straight to 500 and if I am really unlucky, it just stalls.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: 2g head 6 bolt block
[Re: Mike Eng]
#390075
December 05, 2012 12:19 pm UTC
December 05, 2012 12:19 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
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sounds more like you're out of "tune" LOL well I think it could also be my ISC, it may be sticky.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: 2g head 6 bolt block
[Re: Nigel Hap]
#390081
December 05, 2012 02:58 pm UTC
December 05, 2012 02:58 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 10,749 Belleville, Ontario
Ryan Laliberte
No-Lift-To-Shift.... Stock. :)
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No-Lift-To-Shift.... Stock. :)
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I'm so tired of hearing that fukkin term. Every time people ask me about what kind of car it is the first thing they say is "Oh, well enjoy your crankwalk". http://qkme.me/3s1xw2
AWDAuto 1996 TSi AWD Automagic12.24 @ 113 - Small 16G FP Green HTA - 11.42/123 Team Pump Gas and Meth RTMRacing - Your Canadian source for DSM Parts "Every moment you live is pregnant with the next moment of your life" --Jim CarreyLast Login: September 28, 2021
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Re: 2g head 6 bolt block
[Re: Nigel Hap]
#390087
December 05, 2012 04:39 pm UTC
December 05, 2012 04:39 pm UTC
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,263 Niagara Falls, Ontario
Ziggy Dietrich
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Both very cute, LOL!
I think if we ever get a dog, we'll name him "Crank"
"bluebird" worlds fastest scooter ridden by me "Whitebird" RIP
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Re: 2g head 6 bolt block
[Re: Jay Stacey]
#390110
December 05, 2012 10:37 pm UTC
December 05, 2012 10:37 pm UTC
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,873 Los Angeles, California
Alex Akachinskiy
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hmmm interesting.. so instead of poor craftsmanship, its just poor design from the american assembly plants. maybe if mistubishi still had more involvement then the motors would have stayed the same and less crank walk.
I don't think I agree with poor design from the american assembly idea. There are similar cases for engine to fail when manufacture changes/redesign lubrication system. You probably heard about RX7 twin turbo rotary 13B Rev. What could be more hell than boosted motor running complex three dimensional seals? Still reliability was pretty good with those motors. So when the latest beast RX8 (Renesis) came on board, Mazda dropped turbos and claimed this NA motor will do 200,000 miles before rebuild. BTW only few "minor" changes in lubrication system. And look what I did to RX8 Failure reasons? APEX seal running dry, compression lost. Starting 2008 and up they added third oil nozzle (between the two as in 13B Rev) and all problems went away. How many crankwalk cases are outthere for mitsu? 20 - 30%? Almost every engine failed in early RX8. As Rob stated above, All it takes is a starvation of oil to the trust Our engine didn't crankwalk because MITSU forgot to feed oil to thrust bearing. I would call it "design failure" if they did. If Magnus is right than all takes is dirty/old engine oil to clog oil squirter and when they do they'll eat away all need oil pressure to feed thrust bearing at idle. Engine failure due to excess use of dirty oil is not design failure to me. Still everyone talks about crankwalk like all Mitsu motors failed, that upsets me the most!
Last edited by Alex Akachinskiy; December 05, 2012 11:06 pm UTC.
1996 Eagle Talon TSi AWD 1999 Eclipse GST Automagic 1991 3000GT VR-4
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Re: 2g head 6 bolt block
[Re: Nigel Hap]
#390114
December 05, 2012 11:18 pm UTC
December 05, 2012 11:18 pm UTC
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 4,783 Belleville Ontario
Jay Stacey
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what im saying is i read before that in 95 the motoers were biult in the us, and quality dropped for mass production and mass profit. wether it was substandard quality specs.... or lets completely remove the original sqirters and replace them with cheap poorly designed squirting check valves mounted in holes drilled into the easiest place to get an oil feed. Either way ive heard they same argument from both theories from several diferant dsm gods.
my theory....
when the motors were made in japan, like most other performace machines from japan, they were biult well and with thought. Then when they were biult in the US... well sorry but the US hasnt biult a quality performance car since the muscle car era. (which they cant seem to drop either.)
11.45@125, stock bottom end 6bolt 2g head. 272 hks cams. Holset hx35 Backyard biult!!
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