Bad Valve Seals
#412706
September 05, 2013 02:23 pm UTC
September 05, 2013 02:23 pm UTC
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 527 Brampton
Pedro Suarez
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OP
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Posts: 527
Brampton
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Good evening ladies and gentle men !! I'm 99% sure my valve seals are gone after doing research. I have all the symptoms: I'm blowing a bit of white/blue smoke when I move from a stop or when I idle for more than 5 minutes. The smoke is from burning oil. When I drive I do NOT see any smoke behind me while cruising or under boost, however if I push it to past 4.5K smoke does appear. When I do my oil change I can see the engine is burning a bit of oil. I have no temperature issues or shaft play in the T-25 Furthermore, I've done a boost leak test and found a leak in one of my injector seals. I'm assuming it was the injector seal since I could feel the air coming out from underneath. I did a compression test and the results were 178,175,150,170 across the pistons. The leaking injector seal is in the same piston with low compression My questions are: could the bad injector seal be the reason for the low compression in the one piston...? Is there a sure way test of knowing if my valve seals are toast?(Without actually removing them... just yet) Every test I found online just makes me look for the symptoms I already exhibit I've read online that a leak down test would confirm exactly where I'm losing compression, has anyone ever done this test? or does anyone have the specific gauge to preform? Has anyone ever replaced their valve seals using the "string" method? Or using the the special tool to keep them open? The only other possibility I can think of would be worn piston rings... however wouldn't the engine would display low compression across the pistons? Also, I'd be able to feel the loss of power, which I don't Let me know what you guys think
DD '98 Eagle Talon TSi? I LOVE my T-25
Photo Hunt points : 9
R.I.P '94 Eagle Talon ESi
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Re: Bad Valve Seals
[Re: Pedro Suarez]
#412707
September 05, 2013 02:39 pm UTC
September 05, 2013 02:39 pm UTC
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,950 Guelph, Ontario
Jeremy Gilbert
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Serious Member
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Posts: 1,950
Guelph, Ontario
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Good evening ladies and gentle men !! It's 10:30 in the morning! My questions are: could the bad injector seal be the reason for the low compression in the one piston...?
No. Low compression can come from: bad headgasket, improperly-sealing valves, or improperly-sealing piston rings. A bad valve stem seal shouldn't give you low compression either. Is there a sure way test of knowing if my valve seals are toast?(Without actually removing them... just yet)
Yes...but I forget how. I'll pass that one to the more knowledgeable guys. I've read online that a leak down test would confirm exactly where I'm losing compression, has anyone ever done this test? or does anyone have the specific gauge to preform?
I haven't actually done one, but yes this would pinpoint where you are losing compression. The only other possibility I can think of would be worn piston rings... however wouldn't the engine would display low compression across the pistons? Also, I'd be able to feel the loss of power, which I don't
A worn piston ring would display low compression in its respective cynlinder. It's possible for only one ring to be worn. You probably wouldn't be able to feel the power difference, since the compression would decrease over time. Hope that helps.
1995 TSi AWD 11.7@119 1.8 60' - Curse of the Bad Driver PHP: 0
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Re: Bad Valve Seals
[Re: Pedro Suarez]
#412708
September 05, 2013 02:45 pm UTC
September 05, 2013 02:45 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Oct 2010
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Caledon, Ontario, Canada
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Nope, but that's a damn good indicator that your valves are not sealing in that cylinder.
You can pull off the intake/exhaust manifold and look for oil when the valve is open.
A leak down tester would be a good thing, if you search on hear you should be able to find some homemade ones when I was asking what they look like.
For keeping them open I would just turn the crank till they are open.
There is a small chance that your rings could go, the way to test that is put some oil in the cylinder then redo the compression test.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: Bad Valve Seals
[Re: Jeremy Gilbert]
#412714
September 05, 2013 03:09 pm UTC
September 05, 2013 03:09 pm UTC
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 527 Brampton
Pedro Suarez
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OP
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Ok so I'm back to square 1, not knowing the issue LOL Nope, but that's a damn good indicator that your valves are not sealing in that cylinder.
You can pull off the intake/exhaust manifold and look for oil when the valve is open.
There is a small chance that your rings could go, the way to test that is put some oil in the cylinder then redo the compression test. By taking off the intake/exhaust I can visually see oil on the valves..? If I were to do this (which I am) would I have to replace the gaskets and would I need a torque wrench to insure proper sealing? I read that online... So I pour some oil in the cylinder and redo the test... the idea being that the oil will temporarily plug any small holes&cracks in the piston ring... so if the compression is normal after pouring oil in the cylinder then that piston ring is donzo correct? Good evening ladies and gentle men !! It's 10:30 in the morning! My questions are: could the bad injector seal be the reason for the low compression in the one piston...?
No. Low compression can come from: bad headgasket, improperly-sealing valves, or improperly-sealing piston rings. A bad valve stem seal shouldn't give you low compression either. . It's a joker quote from the dark knight I don't think it's the head gasket since I have no other issues and I'm not burning coolant. I'll test for improperly-sealing piston rings now. I'm slighting confused, improperly-sealing valves seems to be my issue, demonstrated by the low compression. However, you're saying a bad valve STEM seal would not give me low compression. So I'm guessing the valve has two different seals? With one at the stem..? I'll do some research now to better understand Sorry for all the questions but this is new territory for me both in theory and practice lol
DD '98 Eagle Talon TSi? I LOVE my T-25
Photo Hunt points : 9
R.I.P '94 Eagle Talon ESi
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Re: Bad Valve Seals
[Re: Pedro Suarez]
#412718
September 05, 2013 03:22 pm UTC
September 05, 2013 03:22 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968
Caledon, Ontario, Canada
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Ok so I'm back to square 1, not knowing the issue LOL
By taking off the intake/exhaust I can visually see oil on the valves..? If I were to do this (which I am) would I have to replace the gaskets and would I need a torque wrench to insure proper sealing? I have never used a torque wrench for that stuff, just make sure it they are close to the same, and don't overtighten. I read that online... So I pour some oil in the cylinder and redo the test... the idea being that the oil will temporarily plug any small holes&cracks in the piston ring... so if the compression is normal after pouring oil in the cylinder then that piston ring is donzo correct? Correct if the comppression goes up significantly then that's your issue, it will more than likely go up a little even if it isn't bad. I'm slighting confused, improperly-sealing valves seems to be my issue, demonstrated by the low compression. However, you're saying a bad valve STEM seal would not give me low compression. So I'm guessing the valve has two different seals? With one at the stem..? I'll do some research now to better understand Well the valve seals against the head.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: Bad Valve Seals
[Re: Jeremy Gilbert]
#412720
September 05, 2013 03:23 pm UTC
September 05, 2013 03:23 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968
Caledon, Ontario, Canada
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Generally, the valves will only leak at their seat (where they seal against the head) if they're bent. I'm guessing your low compression is not actually a valve-sealing problem.
When my timing belt shredded a few weeks ago, I ended up bending 12 of the 16 valves. I still had 150psi in two cylinders. I'm not sure how that relates at all, I just thought it was cool. That's crazy! when my valves were bent my compression was at 90 in that cylinder.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: Bad Valve Seals
[Re: Tyler Minshall]
#412726
September 05, 2013 04:23 pm UTC
September 05, 2013 04:23 pm UTC
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 527 Brampton
Pedro Suarez
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Posts: 527
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UP DATE !!!! I just redid the compression test... oddly enough I got 170+ across the cylinders... I didn't have to add oil, and I did the one showing low compression twice just to be safe and both times it came up with 170+... Also I checked the dip stick while the car was on and there no smoke coming out which I read is also a sign of a worn piston ring... so.. If you have a very leaky valve stem seal you can get some carbon buildup on the valve seat which won't let it close properly. It drips down when you stop the motor and cooks on because the valve is hot.
I have a compressor adaptor that i thread into the spark plug hole and use compressed air to keep the valve in place.
If you pull off your manifolds (Exhaust first) you should see oil in the runner. Replace the seals if you see this.
Try a nice cleaning with some sea foam. Works great. The spray will get into the runners and clean the valves. Thanks Tyler, this looks very plausible. I've been meaning to do the sea foam for a while now so I'll do as soon as I can. Should I bother removing the manifolds to check for oil? Or should I go head and replace the seals?
DD '98 Eagle Talon TSi? I LOVE my T-25
Photo Hunt points : 9
R.I.P '94 Eagle Talon ESi
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Re: Bad Valve Seals
[Re: Pedro Suarez]
#412736
September 05, 2013 08:35 pm UTC
September 05, 2013 08:35 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968
Caledon, Ontario, Canada
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I would look at the cost of that vs a good head.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: Bad Valve Seals
[Re: Pedro Suarez]
#412740
September 05, 2013 08:55 pm UTC
September 05, 2013 08:55 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968
Caledon, Ontario, Canada
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That's alright!
Did you look at cost of tools you will need too?
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: Bad Valve Seals
[Re: Pedro Suarez]
#412764
September 05, 2013 11:10 pm UTC
September 05, 2013 11:10 pm UTC
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,950 Guelph, Ontario
Jeremy Gilbert
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Serious Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,950
Guelph, Ontario
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I would just do valve stem seals. Your guides should be fine.
And if you want to borrow that HLA remover tool I can bring mine to the meat meet. The main thing you're going to need is a valve spring compressor that can work with the head on the engine. AWESOMEEE thanks Jeremy I'll be reading up on this rope method the next few days No problem. The rope method is pretty simple. Essentially you just need something pushing the valve closed so that you can push the spring down and not have the valve go down with it. So what some guys do is pull the spark plug out, rotate the engine so that the piston is down, then feed a length of rope down into the spark plug hole. Then they bring the piston back up, and the rope will coil up and fill the combustion chamber, pushing the valve closed. Then you're free to use the valve spring compressor and the valve will stay put.
1995 TSi AWD 11.7@119 1.8 60' - Curse of the Bad Driver PHP: 0
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Re: Bad Valve Seals
[Re: Pedro Suarez]
#412799
September 06, 2013 11:40 am UTC
September 06, 2013 11:40 am UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968
Caledon, Ontario, Canada
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Jay how would he check that? He has very little shaft play and his whole intake is lines with oil. A lot of us have looked at the car and don't think it's a turbo issue.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: Bad Valve Seals
[Re: Pedro Suarez]
#412804
September 06, 2013 12:05 pm UTC
September 06, 2013 12:05 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968 Caledon, Ontario, Canada
Bryan Lawrence
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,968
Caledon, Ontario, Canada
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Tested PCV and replaced it already. Pedro I would get that filter on there and try that out.
I was thinking excessive crank case pressure as well.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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