Hello once again my Canadian buddies,

Well, this friday the 13th, is my own little mini version of what is known over there as "the war to settle the score". A guy i know with a nissan 180sx has dropped a RB20DET straight 6 2 litre with standard Garet T3 turbo at 14psi from a nissan R32 skyline gts-t into his car to race me. HIs car is a rwd with lsd and is lighter apparently by 4kg's. here is some pictures of his car - http://www.austnetcars.freeservers.com/braddy.htm

For those that still don't know me, i'm the guy from queensland, australia (where the gold coast indy is) with a 95 fwd sonata with 2G eclipse motor and gearbox in my car. i have a lot of mods on the car, and i have finally given the t25 a flick in favor of a garret t3/4 hybrid with .5 and .78 AR housings. I have had a custom exhaust manifold made up to enable me to fit this turbo. i have some pictures of the turbo on my homepage which is under "engine accesories" at www.dsm20.8m.com

The race meet is this friday, this guy has been bagging my car ever since i came up with the idea to make my car (which i've had for 5 years) go a little bit faster. I have to say that the mitsubishi motor is fantastic, i've had it since april with 40,000km's on the clock, and there have been no problems with it at all. But this guy continues to bag my car stating that my engine is "mitsu-shitty"..sooooo...i said put your pride where your mouth is and race me in 60 days..well the 60 days is up this friday the 13th, and so here i am. my car is using the 2g tranny, i know that the first 60 foot is going to be my downfall, but i am hoping that boost and reliability of my motor will see me win consecutive races.

There are some questions that i need to know importantly, that my mechanic/best friend is doing for my car.

(A) What is the CC rating of the injectors on the 2G? and what sort of horsepower level are these injectors good for before i should upgrade?

(b) I have installed the 70mm sonata throttle body to my car which is 10mm wider than the standard eclipse one, does this mean i will lose mid range, but gain a little on top end?

(c) He is removing my O2 housing as it is pretty restrictive. it is not connected, and he is putting a straight pipe there. I have a s-afc to control the idle and fuel mixtures.

(d) I have read a lot about the honeycomb removal in the MAS - what i want to know is if it is really all that much of a benifit if i have a s-afc to allow me to prevent fuel cut out? - i think i read somewhere that the honeycomb restricts 30% of the air drawn through the MAS? Will this removal aid in the top end when boost comes on strong?

Well i hope that i can get a LOT of replies on this one... i don't have any help in regards to mitsubishi's here, so i am as always counting on you guys!...wish me luck on race day!

THANKS!

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[DSM Powered Hyundai Sonata Turbo] - http://www.dsm20.8m.com

Really? I thought that you could get the Lancer/EVO down there, as well as other neat Asian/European cars...

Good luck racing this guy. The Skyline engine has to be one of the best ones out there, and he's RWD next to your FWD. You have to worry about your launch more if you're 'dragging' him. A road race would be much more telling. We're pretty cocky about our machines, but there's others out there that can match them. At least I have respect for them. Let's see how I can answer your questions here...

A)The North American engines had 450cc injectors for the 5spd trannies. Japanese EVO's are larger stock. It's generally agreed that you want to ditch these for 540's or so ASAP if you're running serious power, but the 450's should be able to hold 300-350HP or so. But I think you'd be pushing it without being able to monitor their duty cycle. The S-AFC should let you do this, though, and give you the option to tune your 450's, or throw in 540's.

B)This would be true on a NA engine, but the turbo is cramming air in there at whatever pressure value you have it set at, so you're just getting more air into the engine. I don't think you lose any low or mid-range (you never 'lose' anything, it just feels like it) but you definitely gain high-end. You'll feel this more with the O2 housing removed.

C)This is a question? (: Go for it! I'm at a slow machine to look at your page, but how do you have the wastegate set up?

D)Removing the lower honeycomb lets more air through, and leans out your mixture. I've never put much stock by it, but others have told me that it makes a lot of difference. I'll try it when my engine is complete, and I have something to compare it to. You have the S-AFC to compensate for the extra air. More power. (: Removing the upper honeycomb has been done with a HKS Power-Flo or good K&N filter, but is not recommended.

Thanks for your quick reply Troy, I seem to remember your name way back from when i first started enquiring about the engine swap =)

Yes, we get the evo's here, we got the gsr 1.8 4wd lancer way back in the 90's as part of the mitsubishi line up of new cars for sale, but they sold out, as did the galant vr4, and there are hardly any around these days. The newer model evo's can be imported here but they are very expensive, and to give u an idea just to import the engine is $5000 australian dollars by itself...in comparison, i purchased my complete eclipse 2g front cut for $3500. i've had a look at the lancer blocks, and the rocket cover looks very tall in comparison to the eclipse, so i don't think that some of the internals are quite the same. In a previous post a couple of months back, someone mentioned to me baz motorsports down in sydney, they did have a 11 second company lancer gsr, but lancer gsr's are less and less common these days, so i don't really want to trust them with my parts, over the club dsm canada recommendations =)

(A) good to know it's 450's....i plan to get between that 300-350 @ motor, so hopefully they'll hold up. My mechanic has a dyno at his workshop, so he'll be able to monitor my a/f ratio. I'll be getting the a/f autometer guage in asap most probably next week.

(B) ok great to see that the o2 removal will work without any worries, and that the throttle body at 70mm will be greater for top end. i actually had a look at RRE homepage after my post and saw that apparently the 2g has a 52mm width, and the 1g has a 60mm?..i'm pretty sure i measured it at 60...perhaps someone over there in canada had modified it before the car crashed.

(c) woops, not quite a quesiton, but more a statement to carry on question B. my mechanic has installed an 8pount internal wastegate for my turbo. i am not too tricked up on how it's done, but i will have photos for you within the week so u can see. he has the same turbo on his car (a custom 2.4 litre fwd nissan bluebird 1995 model) with the 8 psi wastegate, and it holds perfect. I have a manual boost controller to lift to higher setting as necessary, but yes, i know that i really should be going for the electronic one - money dictates! heeh...

(d) i'm hesitant myself to remove the honeycomb, i'm afraid that it will stuff up my idle, even though i have the afc, i really don't know if it's worth the power gain, i guess that i'll be able to tell as better as most people, coz i have access to a dyno for free, but in any case, i don't want to remove the honeycomb, and then find i can't put it back together without doing a dodgy super-glue job =P...i saw on the RRE page that the lower comb is the small sideways rectangular shape comb, is this easily put back into place? I never would have thought that just by removing that one piece, it would make "a lot of difference"...

Anyways, today after work i get my car back, i will be back with a report on how it goes, and hopefully i won't have more questions to ask if my dyno tune goes well.

Thanks!

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[DSM Powered Hyundai Sonata Turbo] - http://www.dsm20.8m.com

Whew, expensive stuff. Trusting a local shop is dodgy, but you can do it as long as you can be along to 'supervise' and offer tips here and there. If they're a good shop, they'll always be open for suggestions.

A)The A/F meter is good, but all you really need for that is a voltmeter on the check connector. Lately, it's been pretty much agreed that an EGT gauge is a much better tuning tool.

B)Well, you still need a place to mount the O2 sensor. My 1G AWD has the 60mm throttlebody. Don't know about the 2G turbos. They're set up for more torque than power anyway. If it's 70mm, it's likely someone was playing with it. (:

C)The size of the wastegate oriface is more important than how many psi the actuator will hold. That can always be bled off with the boost controller, unless the new one is a pop-off valve. Electronic boost controllers are nice but unnecessary, especially if you don't live in a rapidly changing climate like we do in Eastern Canada. A well-built manual controller is fine. I just finished building a copy of the Bust-A-Boost controller, although the finish isn't as nice, it works.

D)The lower honeycomb is the oval-shaped one underneath the rectangle-shaped one, where that little screw is underneath the assembly. (You can back this out if you haven't already, just check your A/F ratio.) If you had a spare MAF, it'd be great, but your only option would be to glue it back in if you removed it. That's how it's in there, anyway. (: There's other ways to combat your idle problem, although the S-AFC will work great. Mike J. puts a swinging door there that closes when the engine idles. Solving the idle problem.

ok, well i went to the shop today to have a look at my car, we took it around the block for a test without being tuned, and there is a bit of lag there, boost coming on after 4000 hmmmz...anyways, just a couple of quick questions.....

(1) I didn't think the o2 sensor needed to be attached? is the o2 sensor just for idle features? If it is not attached, does the ecu, perform any sort of retarded timing?

(2) we are looking at adjustiment of idle on the car. Being a 2G, we see that the timing can not be adjusted. My mechanic tells me he is looking at adjusting the depth of a mark on a small circular tin plate that is apparently the size of a jar lid, by elongating a hole in that to advance timing, as apparently the motor reads the hole placed from factory as being the standard timing for the standard ecu. Does anyone know anything about elongating this hole to advance timing?

(3) does the eclipse 2G ecu have a "limp return mode cycle" on it? ie - it the engine check light comes on due to some sought of problem, does the ecu resort to a standardised set of timing? - in particular, does the ecu automatically retard the timing? we are assuming so, but any help would be great.

I think i'll be leaving the mas the way it is from factory, i would hate to see a hinged door in the mas fall off one day down the intake =/

the turbosmart manual dual boost controllerr that i use seemed to work well tonight on my test drive, the car held boost well at 16psi, and switched back to 11psi on low mode.

my race is in 23 hours. I am counting on any info guys! - btw, work is being done by my best friend's workshop CMP - www.powerup.com.au/~xian/cmp.htm

Regards, Justin

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[DSM Powered Hyundai Sonata Turbo] - http://www.dsm20.8m.com

Hey Justin,

How much for jap spec Galant parts in aussie? Im looking for a jap spec hood, and maybe headlights?

How much for the shipping/charges?

One more thing, do u live close to Melbourne?
I might drop by there this summer and check the place out...

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Boostless 4 door wonder
threestardiamond@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by Joe Esmama (edited October 12, 2000).]

(1) Without the o2 sensor the car will run richer.The retarding is done by the knock sensor i belive.

Im not even gonna attempt steps 2 and 3

Do some G-teching before the race and let me know how u did . ICQ me eh.

Good Luck man

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92 Turbocharged HYUNDAI SONATA

My Sonata's BOV wave File

That's big lag. What are you running for an exhaust, and is the turbo ported at all?

1) The ECU depends on the O2 sensor for the A/F mixture reading so it knows to richen or lean out the mixture. This is a good thing. Tom's right. Without it, it defaults to a full-rich failsafe mode.

2) You can adjust the base timing, but if your car is knocking the ecu will pull it right back again. Some of the better engine computers have adjustment for this, such as the EFI PMS. There's another way, but I forget how to do it. Should be in the Talon Digest Archives.

3) The computer has a couple of fail-safe 'limp home' modes.

Well, when you do that hinged door thing, you just attach it bloody well enough that it doesn't come off! (: Seeing as you're 1/2 a day ahead of us, how did the race go? (:

Hi Guys,

Joe, try - http://www.adelaidejap.com.au for the enquireis on parts for the vr4.

Well, we all turned up to the meet tonight, however, it had started sprinkling, and by the time we went to the first location for racing, it was raining. So the event was called off. However, i did not attend the meet in my car, i had to go in my best friend/mechanic's car as my car could not leave the shop. Why?....

We go the car completely together, and put it onto the dyno, the car read close to 92kw at the wheels at 3000rpm, but then, when boost rushes between 3000-4000rpm to 15psi, the car got a huge shortage of fuel supply. - Problem?...Hyundai Sonata fuel pump. Solution? - Bosch 3 litre 6 cylinder RB30ET holden commodore vl turbo fuel pump goes into my car tomorrow, along with a new fuel filter, and possibly a fuel pressure regulator. Unfortunately there was not enough time for me to make it to the meet with these mods done. So.....this will be done when i wake up in 7 hours time! my car fingers crossed, should be tuned and ready come the afternoon, hopefully my fuel lines are able to deliver the extra fuel. I am really not looking forward to having something else needed to be modified.

With my o2 sensor not connected, i believe that from what you tell me, my car should be getting fuel cut out, far earlier than what it should be. I was under the impression that this was only for idle, but i'll suggest for him to have it drilled into the new downpipe to test and see what happens at mid and high rpm

Justin

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[DSM Powered Hyundai Sonata Turbo] - http://www.dsm20.8m.com

AAAAAAHhhhhhhhhhhhhh crap!

I been waiting and waiting to see what the out come would be and i hear this news??? *sigh* hehe

You guys did so well with the car and putting it together etc etc and you didnt change the stock Sonata pump when running a T3/T4 @ 15 psi??? lol i even would have know that one
I have my Sonata pump running now with 14b @ 10 psi and its fine, but i have an external bosch pump ready to go when i turn things up.

Well once you get the pump in do a G-tech run i need to know the out come.

With the T-25 you ran a 14.2 right? So you should be in the 13's maybe 13.5 maybe better???

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92 Turbocharged HYUNDAI SONATA

My Sonata's BOV wave File

Thnxs Justin...

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Boostless 4 door wonder
threestardiamond@hotmail.com

you could've gone with a cosmo pump also.

[This message has been edited by Michel Brais (edited October 13, 2000).]

Can we say....TOTAL KICK ASS? woohoo!, got the car back today, and went to the gold coast for what most guys do on a saturday night. We missed out on the race meet yesterday night, as it rained out, and then the cops came...so....today, we put the bosch fuel pump in my car, and damn, does that sucker supply fuel or what!!..i had to reduce the s-afc percentages down to minus 15 at high rpm.....the car reads boost at zero on the guage at 3000 and jumps to 16psi by 4000rpm....it feels much much better now, third, fourth and fifth is endless, with no dropping off of power. Well at this meet, i beat a nissan pulsar et turbo which can beat the skyline quite convincingly in the 3rd, 4th, and 5th gears. his car was quite a good performer (and he is my friend also)....so technically, i am the winner of the race meet =)

Well, the car still has a problem with timing. I'm not sure what you guys do that add a larger turbo than factory, and purchase an s-afc, but the car was running at 16psi on load, on the dyno at 6000rpm for quite a while, and there was no pining. - only assumption, is that the car is trying to retard the timing something chronic!....car goes back inthe shop on friday and they are going to look at adjusting the timing somewhere at the bottom tiiming cover belt there is some sought of reading, that has 2 measurements printed on it...i will get the low down and try to explain how they adjust my timing on friday, when the car returns to the shop. my mechanic says that the power that is there, should be pumping out much more, closer to 200kw @ the wheels, but i am only producing 140 atm.

Tom - i haven't run the gtech yet, i should have tonight, but i forgot to bring it...i will go out tomorrow during the day and record it.

Well, i am very very happy with the result of the larger turbo upgrade. I thoroughly recommend upgrading to a garrett t3/4 for anyone who is using the pissweak t25 - dump it immediately! Once again, thanks for your replies guys.

Justin

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[DSM Powered Hyundai Sonata Turbo] - http://www.dsm20.8m.com

Justin,

I'm not sure what you're asking here about timing, but the ECU *will* retard timing under certain circumstances.

If your car knocks for whatever reason (like running excessively lean with your rinky dink Sonata fuel pump , or low octane gas) then the ECU will first try to cut some boost by sending a singal to the Boost Control Solenoid, and if that doesn't work (for example, because you have an aftermarket boost controller in there, and the BCS is disabled), then it will retard the timing. This might be happening to you.

You shouldn't really have to be adjusting timing too much, but rather making sure it doesn't get pulled back by the ECU.

You might want to run an LED to the Boost Control Solenoid that you can see while you're running the car so that you know if they ECU is sensing knock, and pulling back timing.

Required Reading:
<A HREF="http://members.home.net/costall/ECUprimer/index.html">Sean Costall's ECU Primer</A>
<A HREF="http://members.home.net/dsmweb/ledmod/">The DSM Knock Sensor Site</A>.

Jeff Mitchell

Sounds good Justin cant wait.

200kw??? Thats like over 300 hp no?? DAMN

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92 Turbocharged HYUNDAI SONATA

My Sonata's BOV wave File

Thomas,

200 kw is around 270hp, it's aprox 75kw/100hp.



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Chris "I'll fix it later" Bolt
93 TSi AWD

That's great to hear, Justin. You have to run the Skyline anyway, though. (:

I just got my car running myself...

I'm afraid Jeff has it backwards. The ECU retards timing first. The BCS is only used as a last-resort effort to prevent detonation.

Still, adjusting the timing generally will not help. Attempts to adjust the timing on a non-adjustable 2G engine will usually cause a 'check engine' light.



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S.
1000 AAQ: 1000q.dsm.org
ECU Primer: members.home.net/costall/ECUprimer/index.html

Hmmm... Now that I've read a little more, it appears you're right Sean.

Actually it was a paragraph in the 1000Q that confused me:



I took the "often accompanied" bit to mean that it was BCS first, and then retarded timing second.

Of course I somehow missed the paragraph right before it that explains the correct sequence of events.

Makes me wonder how useful those BCS LED mods are if the timing is getting pulled back first though.

Anyways, thanks for the correction.

Jeff Mitchell

Woops, i missed the post yesterday...well, i still am booked to go in the workshop on friday, so i will be waiting until then, before i run the gtech (saturday) i have the bosch fuel pump, and the apex s-afc, running on minus percentages, so i know it's not a fuel problem, so therefore, the ecu should not be adjusting the solenoid (i have a manual boost controller that adjusts boost control)

In terms of the 2g motor being non timing adjustable, we will see on friday. I will take photos of what is being modified, so you can see what i mean. I am not technical, and will get my mechanic to explain it to me in layman's terms! =)......basically i remember them saying something about there being an indicator (number) on the bottom timing belt cover saying 10 degrees?....and that this could be altered. They did say though, that adjusting the hole in the plate, would mean that the entire rev range would have the timing advanced as standard. Anyways to stop any confusion, i will re post on friday night or saturday, with the info i know, cyas then =)

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[DSM Powered Hyundai Sonata Turbo] - http://www.dsm20.8m.com

You can set the Base timing, but the ECU can play with it afterwards, except for this 'hole' that you speak of... (:

The knock LED mod is a last ditch warning. This lets you know that things have gotten REALLY bad. If you want precision, buy a Scostall timing monitor. Soon to be released! (:

Once I crawl out from the rock that is work.

Jeff: You've hit it on the head with the 'knock LED' mod. They are not useful for detecting knock, or most of anything else. About all they are good for is diagnosing a toasted knock sensor or a bad tank of gas.

That paragraph in the 1000AAQ was intended as a 'catch-all' explanation for aspects of the BCS operation which were not completely understood at the time. This includes the ECU pulsing the BCS during WOT situations to try to lower the intake air pressure - the ECU 'gets nervous' about having that amount of air mass entering the engine. This effect has (perhaps unfortunately) been called 'mini fuel cut'.



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S.
1000 AAQ: 1000q.dsm.org
ECU Primer: members.home.net/costall/ECUprimer/index.html

Back as promised,

Since my last post i've had an autometer air/fuel ratio guage installed. The car had been dyno tuned at 15psi displaying 140kw @ the wheels, and the air/fuel ratio mixture on the car was reading 12 steady throughout the rev range. However, after installing the air/fuel ratio guage, and testing the car on the road, whenever flooring it and taking it to the redline, the guage would just read "full rich". I adjusted the fuel supply via apex S-AFC to supply less fuel, and the air/fuel guage did move back a couple of bars back towards "2 o'clock" (just past the start of the rich green readings). What has me worried, is how i can have a steady air/fuel ratio on the dyno, yet when i go to take the car on the road, the car guage reads that the car is too rich. Leaning out the fuel mixture does concern me, as i'm always wondering if it's actually giving a correct reading.

Another thing that i don't understand is the delivery of power in third gear. My turbo (T3/4) is the same turbo used in my friend's nissan bluebird 2.4 litre 4 cylinder. His car, at 10psi shows 150kw @ the wheels, my car at 15psi shows 147kw @ the wheels. The dyno run is done in third gear. I told my mechanic about the dsm forums available. He read up on some of them, and came to the conclusion (as stated here) that the knock sensor tells the ecu when ignition retarding should occur. So the timing adjustment i referred to previously in this thread did not occur. (sorry!).

If i am to do a stand start and work through the gears to redline...coming into third gear, the car feels very fast. However, if i am allready in third, and keep it at 4000 (when boost is on), the car feels nowhere near as fast. Is this simply to do with momentum?...or do you guys think that the timing has something to do with it? i am only running at 15psi, and the turbo came with a 20psi wastegate standard..is the reason for the power not being there simply due to me not running enough boost? eg 20psi?...if so, i can live with that...standard internals only.

Well, for those that are interested...i still haven't raced the 180sx with the skyline motor in it..however, i did race a real skyline r32 gts-t last night (exhaust, fmic, intercooler, and i had him by one car length in third, and by 3 car lengths midway through fourth =)

As for the gtech, i practiced launches over the last few days, i get a lot of wheel spin mid way through first, and then depending on the road surface, torque steer into second. The car doesn't feel stable at full throttle going into fourth. Due to the soft shocks, the car feels like it's floating everywhere...NOT GOOD!...got a quote for koni suspension to be put in...another $1000 out of my pocket, but definitely worth it...now if i can only find a bank..and a mask =P.....Tom...i don't think i'll bother doing the gtech until my suspension is in, because i'm sure i'll be able to cut down possible half a second there...any times on your end so far?

Since it's a larger motor, perhaps your friend's car IS putting more power to the ground, since you're using the same settings.

I'd more trust a dyno A/F meter. The A/F gauges in cars are sketchy at best, and rely on the O2 sensor, which itself isn't known for it's precision readings. It's merely ballpark. I use a multimeter, since I know where the voltages should be, and I still don't trust it. Get an EGT gauge if you want to be rock-solid sure.

As for the 'lack of power', it's probably just feeling. Accelerating from 0 to speed feels 'faster', because more effect is felt on your body, and the car accomplishes this faster. Accelerating while rolling is changing your velocity (G-Force) is less, and your car doesn't have the power to do this as effectively. When the ECU changes the timing, it's a LONG time before it tries to advance it again. Not by the next stoplight...

When you do get reliable fuel readings from the EGT, you can boost your turbo up a little more to give you some extra push.