Just looking for some quick input before I make any decisions here.

The first week of March I had the timing belt, balance belt,power steering belt, waterpump/gasket & tensioner pulley changed at a local shop. Then 2 weeks later ended up needing to get the intake gasket replaced and he also told me the turbo wasn't spooling up and it would need a valve timing done. They had the car for about a week and I drove it home last Thursday with no problems, and filled it up with gas along the way. About an hour later I went to start the car and it sounded like a diesel tractor with very loud clacking noises like engine knock but louder I turned it off after about 10 seconds and called the garage and explained the problem. They sent a tow truck to get the car and this morning I was just told that they found out the tensioner (but not the tensioner pulley) had failed. They had replaced the tensioner ($169) but when they went to check compression . . . none. Basically the problem I was being careful to avoid by getting the timing belt replaced has now happened, bent valves and am being told the head gasket kit is $299, each valve depending how many are damaged $25 and 7.5 hours of labour. I should mention too that I have been dealing with this shop for years and have never had any problems, or felt like I have been overcharged for anything, but am I wrong for thinking to myself that it's a little too coincidental that they adjusted the timing of things twice in the last 3 weeks and the day I get it back from the shop this happens? He told me the only thing that can make a timing belt come off like that is if the tensioner fails or something seizes . . . if they screwed up the valve timing they did that same day, could that have made something seize??

Any suggestions, or ideas on the cost and the time I was quoted would be appreciated.

It's going to need to be done one way or the other just wondering if I should be trying to get some compensation from the shop or this is just a matter of bad luck. Also is there anything else I should be getting done or replacing while the head is off? I am planning on keeping this car for quite a while as everything (else) is in good shape and wouldn't mind kicking things up a notch as long as the top end is apart?

Thanks in advance,
Brian

Sorry to hear about the problems

There are some other reasons that could lead to a timing belt failure.

1. timing belt tensioner,
2. timing belt tensioner pully not torqued correctly

In your case, they suspected your tensioner failed. Didn't they change the tensioner? Who does a timing belt change and not change the tensioner?

There is also a possiblity that they didn't do the job right and it gave way after a short drive.

if they screwed up the valve timing, it would be very apparent at startup, so no, it will not cause anythign to seize.

I have a feeling that you should pin this on the shop and see if they can AT LEAST give you free labour for the repairs.

I was told by the shop that the pulley was replaced in the original job, but that there is no reason to change a tensioner unless it was obviously not working. I was assured that it is very rare for them to change out the tensioner itself in a timing belt job, is that wrong? As far as free labour . . . thats 2/3 of the cost I'm not sure they would go for something like that without me having a solid explanation as to why I thought that should be the case. You gave two reasons why it could fail, how would I know if a pulley wasn't torqued correctly? Would the pulley be damaged as a result? Also how would you be able to tell if the tensioner had failed, should I ask to see the old one? I don't want to end up paying for something I shouldn't be paying for, but I also don't want to be accusing a garage that I have had no previous problems with of doing something wrong if that isn't the case.

Thanks for the quick reply,
Brian

I've always seen the tensioner included in lists of parts to buy for a T-Belt change. The VFAQ Checklist lists it, and I know I saw it brought up in a post not too long ago.

Isn't it just oil under pressure inside that's plugged at the bottom of the tensioner that keeps the tension? I'd always swap it out just to be safe, or you can make a manual tensioner and never worry about replacing it again with periodic checks.

I'd definitely look into getting the shop to cover some or most of the cost. They shouldn't have assured you that you didn't need to change the tensioner.

On that note, how do they find out if the tensioner's obviously not working? Sounds like a surefire recipe for bent valves.

I think the main thing I should be asking here is: should a mechanic have known that something was wrong with that tensioner if it was checked properly? Or is that impossible to tell if this part is in good shape or not?

Thanks for the fast replies as usual,
Brian

In this case, a mechanic had just done the t-belt and it failed within a short period of time. This I find questionable. It is possible that the tensioner failed, but, did he not take the slack out of the belt with the tensioner pulley first before pulling the pin on the tensioner.

I'm with Jeremy on this one. I say that he either didnt tension the belt properly with the tensioner pulley, or he didnt torque the tensioner pulley down and it moved.

Even if the tensioner failed 1 hour after it left the shop, the tensioner pulley was still taking up the slack in the belt so how did the belt get loose enough to jump.

Walk into the shop and get the tensioner and check it yourself. Dont call them and tell them your coming. Just show up.

Brian,

This sounds like a typical case where the garage was neglegent when they did your timing belt and now is looking to put the blame on you. You paid them to replace the timing belt and other relevant parts and the car timing belt skipped. That is their fault. Did you see the faulty tensioner or did they just tell you? If the tensioner was bad then it would have not held tension after they had just finished the job. Im sure most shops check their work to see if it was done right. If they would have done so they would have noticed the faulty tensioner.
In my opinion not changing the tensioner during a t-belt job is very amature. It is always done, the shop should have known that and asked you if you wanted it done.

This is not bad luck you should definately fight hard for them to compensate you fully.

Sorry about all the questions here, but maybe I just don't understand exactly what the tensioner does. Is the tensioner something that puts the tension onto the pulley to tack up the slack on the belt before you torque the pulley down? Does that mean that even if the tensioner failed completely the pulley would stay put?

Brian

The tensioner pulley is mounted so that the bolt is just offset from the centre. When rotated and the thicker portion of the pulley is pointing out against the timing belt, it will increase the tension.

There is an arm attached to a bracket (I think, but it's the same principle) which is attached to the pulley which forces it to rotate (increase tension) when pressure is applied.

The tensioner is bolted to the front case and pushes up/right on the arm to push the tensioner pulley into the belt ensuring it is tight.

So basically, no if the tensioner fails the pulley isn't able to keep the belt taught and you get a big mess.

Anyone feel free to fill in any specifics that I missed.

Well here's some further info, I went down to the shop and talked to the owner who didn't work on my car, but is the main lic. mechanic in the shop. Basically he told me when they took the cover off to look at the timing belt, the belt had slack between the bottom pulley and the front cam and also between the cams. When they checked the timing marks, they were off. He said the tensioner still appears to be in working condition but that is the only thing that could have caused the tension to not be on the belt, nothing else can give. He hoped that because all I did was start it in my driveway and let it run a few seconds that there was no damage and thats when he ordered an OEM tensioner, did the timing and tried to start the car again. It wouldn't start and that's when they checked the compression. He told me he has done dozens of talon timing belts and has never ever replaced the tensioner or found any reason to. He said that he has never heard of any shop that would change that part unless it was leaking fluid or obviously not working, but since neither of those were the case here it was left in. To me it just seems strange that there is no way to test that part? You are just supposed to put a new one in and then if your timing belt slips as a result and kills all your valves. . . that one is no good? Does anyone know if this part is recommended to be changed in a timing belt job in the service manuals, or is this the kind of thing where as a dsm owner we are supposed to specify every part we want replaced? He actually told me that most shops even now would probably tell me that old tensioner was a good part. Even though he is not willing to take any fault for what has happened, he told me he won't charge me for anything related to the timing at the end of this job, as well no charge for the time they spent trying to get the car going again and doing the timing with the new tensioner, and no charge for the tow. He sat with me in the shop after 5 showing me on diagrams and explaining every question I asked and expressed the concerns raised here for about 30 minutes. From everything he explained it does seem like maybe it was just bad luck, but like I said I don't know if this is a part that is recommended for replacement in the service manual. If it is written somewhere in black & white then I think I have recourse, but if it's left up to the dicression of the mechanic based on the criteria that he told me about, then really they did everything they were supposed to. Another problem is the more I fight for this, the longer I will have no vehicle, which of course affects my income if I can't go on calls for work.

Brian

I say he's responsible.
These tensioners are pretty much the number one cause of timing belt failures on our cars. He knows it's an interference engine, he knows if the tensioner gives up any time before the next timing belt job, which is what 80-90k, sh!t will start flying. Just cause it looks alright today it doesn't mean it won't give up in the next two-three years.

He's your mechanic, and he's responsible for keeping your car in ongoing good health, kinda like a family doctor. He shouldn't just leave it up to chance and wait for the tensioner to fail before he replaces it. If it was a random shop, they might expect you to specify what you want. But your own mechanic should know better than you what you want (like how's my grandmother expected to ask for the tensioner to be replaced?? ). If you decline, that's fine, but he should lay it out for you ahead of time, then his ass is covered. In this case it's not.

I just looked in Hayes, it actually only says to replace the t- and b-belts, nothing about the tensioner. Too lazy to look in the chrysler manual. However, all the dsm literature on the net definitely says to replace the tensioner.

Either way, I stand behind my point that he should be more forward-thinking. That's if it's really the tensioner that failed and not the pulley that gave due to their negligence. Either way you have a case in my opinion.

Didn't Vince have a problem with a mechanic saying something about a leaky tensioner? Didn't Vince have Mike H. come set the guy straight? I can't remember

There are 2 points here that weren't mentioned.

a) I know you can damage the tensioner but compressing it too fast, on an angle, or whatever it can be damaged.

b) This may not be fool proof, however I have compared a good tensioner to a bad one. The bad one did not provide nearly as much pressure as the good one. Also, the shaft that comes out of it was kinda wobbly compared to the good one which was very firm.

Have you got a receipt with the KMS and the date and what was done to the car?

The tension can also go if the tensioner pulley is not adjusted properly, or torqued properly to hold it in place.

The manual states

"1) check the auto tensioner for possible leaks and replace as necessary.
2) check the rod end for wear or damage and replace as necessary."

Couldnt find any info stating that it should be replaced at same time as belt (every 100k).

Brian,

I'm not sure if it's been said yet, or maybe I'm a poor reader. Anyway, I think the problem might not be that the tensioner is faulty, but that they didn't follow the proper tensioning procedure. I've done the timing belt on our cars a few times and I know it's important to follow proper procedure. ie once properly installed, rotate the engine several times, let sit 15-20min, and recheck the tension. I've often had to reset the tension after this waiting period. That's why I think there's soo much slack in your system but the tensioner still looks good.
Anyway, just a thought.
JT

If the tensioner isn't faulty, how could it not be the shop's fault? They worked on the timing, and the timing broke!

Something is to blame, and I doubt it could be anything inside the engine (it was running fine before!).

I think you need to find out exactly WHY this happend. If the shop can't explain it, you just have to assume they messed up the timing job.

So let's see, the car WAS working fine and you brought it in for PREVENTATIVE maintenance and then less than 500km later the timing belt skips??? Hmmm, what are the odds that the tensioner would decide to fail at this moment in time? A tensioner doesn't fail overnight and if it was showing signs of wear the mechanic should have seen that. In my experience when the tensioner is getting weak you will HEAR a low growling sound coming from the timing belt area. If you pop off the top timing belt cover then you can see the belt flapping up and down between the cam gears. I'm betting that they did not set the tensioner properly or did not let it sit for 15 minutes after pulling the pin and rechecking the tension. I think they are trying to cover their asses. Get the tensioner and see how hard it is to compress the shaft again. If it requires a c-clamp then it is still functioning properly. Print the timing belt V-FAQ off, study it and then ask pointed questions as to EXACTLY how they set the tension and what tools they used to check that the shaft on the tensioner is extended the correct amount.
The only other thing that could possibly have caused this is one of the balance shaft bearings seizing up. This happened on my car which resulted in the timing belt jumping and causing the damage that you now have......

Sorry to hear about that Brian... And no, it's not *BAD LUCK*. Doing a proper timing belt job has nothing to do with luck.

It is the shop's fault. If the tensioner is still good, as they claim, then the job was not done properly - refer to Steve Kinnaird's last post. If there was slack in the belt, then the slack came from the tensioner pulley which turned on the bracket. Otherwise the guy wouldn't say the tensioner is still good.

Besides, it sounds like there was quite a bit of slack on that belt by the description that you gave. Just a faulty tensioner alone would not give that much noticable slack.

I don't know what to suggest about having this problem resolved though, or if you can get the shop to rebuild your engine or drop in a JDM...

Well the results for this event are in. I went to go talk to the guy that owns the shop and asked him very specific questions with a shop manual in hand. He had no problems listening to everything I had to ask and seemed to agree with a lot of what I was saying, after which he explained things from his point of view: He has literally done hundreds of timing belts in the last 10 years, with a few dozen Talons included and only remembers ever changing out out autotensioner because it was leaking fluid. I also had called Chrysler and asked them about changing that part and they basically said the same thing, if it looks worn, is leaking fluid or the pin doesnt extend fully (12mm past the body) then yes replace it. I actually have the autotensioner now he let me have it in case I wanted to have someone look at it, and it pretty sure noone would find any obvious reasons to replace it. He brought the mechanic that did the job in to talk too when I asked if there was any possibility the pulley wasn't torqued down right and turned on the bolt. The mechanic said that was the first thing he checked when he saw that the belt was loose and it was still tight. After all is said and done the guy that owns the shop realizes that I didn't do anything wrong to damage the engine, and although people in here are often more careful to replace those parts and not take any chances, as far as I can tell, the mechanic wasn't being negligent by not replacing a part that appeared to be working. Plus taking into consideration that the longer this is drawn out the longer I have no vehicle, the owner of the shop has offered me cost on the parts as well as cost on the labour. And actually to my surprise he was very level headed and informative of every question that I asked him for close to an hour. In the end I will just have to consider the fact that I will have a better running engine with some new parts in it and got a reduced price on the job, instead of taking a long time to try and question and prove all the "what if's". Thanks to everyone for all the help, I originally had purchased all the parts for this job thinking I would try it myself, but I must have missed that auto tensioner on the vfaq list. Maybe I could have dragged things out and tried to make a legal issue out of things but after talking with the owner of the shop I do believe that he is sincere with everything he told me and was very open about listening to my questions and taking the time to explain everything to me. Was definitely a learning experience and if anything else unusual pops up, I'm sure I will have another chapter to write, it will probably be titled "Body Work" as that is next on the list.

Thanks again for all the replies, it's nice to know there's somewhere to go where people are on your side.

Brian

Not to drag this out further.. but..

If the tensioner is still good, then it MUST be the mechanic's fault. (by reason of eliminating the old tensioner as the problem)

No it's never dragging anything out, I always want to hear what people have to say. Here's some points/questions though:

- The car ran for 2 weeks almost without any trouble, if the timing belt was done wrong, I would assume it would be instantly obvious?

- The mechanic said the first thing he checked was that the tensioner pulley hadn't come loose and it hadn't, there's no way for me to prove it was loose if I wasn't there.

- What else could have gone wrong other than the pulley not being adjusted, or the tensioner not keeping tension that would be related to that job that would have let the car run for 2 weeks?

I am just looking ahead a bit, right now I am paying a very discounted rate for replacing valves and the gaskets. What happens if I went about this legally got the whole thing done for free and it turns out to be something seriously wrong somewhere else in the engine that seized something for long enough to make the belt jump, I realize unlikely yes but I have an uncanny habit of ending up in the most unlikely situations most of my days. Mainly I am just looking at it as cutting my potential losses, with only one vehicle it limits the time and resources you have to put into getting to the absolute bottom of something like this. I mainly asked for opinion in this forum to find out if there was going to be a definite missed step somewhere that I could point out and use to my benefit. Keep in mind too those questions above are really being asked honestly, from what I have learned so far those are the only two possible places that tension can be lost so if I am missing something then let me know! I mean can something like a backfire put more stress on a tensioner and make the belt jump?

Brian

Make sure that they check the balance shaft bearings before going any further. They can seize (happened to me) and cause the belt to jump. In my case though, the belt remained tight which would indicate that it was tensioned properly. In your case though it sounds like the belt is slack. So, to me, it STILL sounds like they messed up. If the tensioner is good then "somehow" the belt developed slack. The only way I can see that happening is if they did not follow the procedure properly to set the extension on the tensioner. If it (the tensioner) could not extend far enough to compensate for the slack then it was not adjusted properly. What tools did they use to adjust it and check? The mechanic may have done hundreds of timing belt repairs but that doesn't mean he messed this one up. When I took my car to a garage years ago to get the belt done I gave them the VFAQ and Haynes manual and stressed the importance of following the procedure. Guess what? The newbie mechanic he had working for him didn't think he needed to read it and did it his way. They ended up replacing valves too....
If you're going to get the valves done then make sure that the job is done properly. If there are a lot of Km on the engine then you'll need valve guides replacing on the exhaust side, valve stem seals, valve seats reground and new seals for the cam shafts etc. p.s buy the stuff from the U.S when I bought the valve guides they were about 1/4 the cost of buying from Canada.

Hi Brian,

I personally think that the shop is largely responsible for your trouble.

Regardless, while the engine is apart I recommend you give serious consideration to removing the balance shafts. The reason is that it is very hard to do afterwards, with the engine intact and in the car.

I could have done it when my balance belt failed some time ago, but I didn't, and I'm regretting it now.

Aside from that, if you're getting some kind of deal from them then do everything you can. I bought a 2G exhaust manifold and had it and the head ported while they were off.

I had a mechanic friend of mine do my first timing belt. Picked the car up, it was running great, and off I went.

About 6 days later I went to start the car. It started, but idled like poo, and was making some horrible noises from the valvetrain.

I put the car on a tow truck, and brought it out to his shop. My T-Belt had jumped 2 teeth. Not enough to bend any valves, but enough to create enough lash to make it sound terrible. (I got off LUCKY!)

Turns out, my friend didn't set the initial tension prooperly. As the new belt stretched a bit the hydraulic tensioner ran out of adjustment. This let the belt get loose enough to jump some teeth. He re-did the belt for me (checking the initial tenion properly (set the tension, wait 15-20 min. Turn the engine over (by hand) until the timing marks line up, then measure the distance between the tensioner and the tensioner pulley bracket it pushes on).

Car ran fine for the next 90K.

Ok, so now you all have me thinking again, and while the car is supposed to be ready tomorrow . . . I still haven't paid for it yet. I have a question now, how can I get the tensioner which I currently have tested by someone to make sure it's working, because to look at it, there are no signs of wear, no leaking fluid and the rod sticks out as far as it is supposed to, so is there any other testing I can do or have done to this part to determine if it is faulty as the shop claims?

Brian

If I was the mechanic I would have told you that the first thing I checked was the torque of the tensioner pulley bolt. There is no way a mechanic is going to admit he screwed up. The shop is totally at fault, and every shop warranties their work, I believe any damage cause by thier crappy work should be covered by the warranty. If you get a transmission rebuilt and it seizes, and in the process it breaks your cv shafts in half, who is going to pay for new shafts?? obviously the shop because it was their crappy work that caused the damage.

How about this: Would this have happened if you didn't get the timing belt changed?? Not a chance.. The belt wasn't tensioned properly and they are not going to admit it.

Take the tensioner to Chrysler and see what a mechanic has to say about it there.

screw the old tensioner

that is DONE

at 60kmiles they better be changed.

you are saying tensioner was fine,
mechanic says the bolt was tight?!

then what, I came there and force the belt to skip some teeth at night.

They messed up and the last thing they would do it to confess they caused it.

It is a simmple equation.
they HAVE to pay for it. BUt how much YOU can GET them to pay depends on you. I, for one, am very bad in getting them do it.

Amin

Brian, I might have missed it, but what is your mileage?

Also, this is a little late and most likely doesn't apply, but when I was at Chrysler discussing the transfercase recall, I noticed on the computer that the timing belt was also done on my Talon @168,000 km in 1999. The service manager told me that it was a recall and it was free. No details on the computer. With that type of mileage why would Chrysler be stuck with changing a timing belt I asked? He said he didn't know other than he thinks everyone is entitled to a free timing belt once regardless of who put the last one in. This doesn't sound right to me. Comments anyone.

The earlier 1G models had a recall on the T-belt. (My '92 qualified). If the recall wasn't done on the car, then it can still be done.

What EXACTLY is covered under the recall, I'm not sure. It may just be the T-Belt, it may be more.

Well the car will be ready to pick up on Monday sometime and the totals I have for the cost are this:

OEM Tensioner - $169
OEM Gasket Kit - $299
8 Intake Valves - $200
8 Exhaust Valves - $200
Total Labour - $250

Again thanks to everyone for all the quick replies, and you can bet I will be doing a hell of a lot more research into my car repairs BEFORE any work gets done from now on. As it stands right now the mechanic thinks I am happy with the agreement that we came to with parts and labour at cost, and when I go to get the car on Monday or Tuesday will be one final question for him which will decide to me whether I let it go or try one last time for him to claim responsibility. I am going to find out if the same mechanic did the timing belt again, & will tell him before I take the car I want him to check the extension distance on the tensioner rod which from what I read should fall in the range of 3.8 - 4.5 mm. If it's out, then negotiations will be open again I'm sure, and he should be thanking me for saving him the cost of doing it all over again. I figure it's kinda hard to argue the past, but if that measurement is out on the tensioner then what better proof do you need then seeing it with your own eyes?!

Brian

Brian, what was the mileage?

Mileage on the car is 215,000 KM.

Brian

OEM tensioner is 100 bucks
I think the valve prices are high too there.
I got out paying 250 TOTAL for 4 bent valves.

what do they have in the haslet kit
you only need the headgasket and some other ones on top of the engine.

Brian,

They will not be able to measure the rod tension when the car is ready for pick up. The covers and pulleys have to go on and cover up the tensioner. If you want them to show you then I suggest you go see them ASAP.
The prices are rather expensive for cost. That is the normal price for an auto tensioner. Valves range from 15-25 normal price. No way they should be 200 cost. Also, I would make him show you the bags that they came in to make sure they are OEM. I know this is a hard thing to do right now becuase you are still on good grounds but they messed up once and I really wouldnt want to see the same thing happen 6 months from now because they used some crappy aftermarket tensioner.

Another way the t-belt can skip teeth is if the balance shaft belt breaks. They can break from being too old, or improperly tensioned. Did you remember if they replaced it?

In general, I think the shop isnt being 100% honest with you, The tensioner (you said) doesnt look bad and the mechanic properly tensioned the pulley then what went wrong? They are not taking responsibility for their mistakes and making you pay for it is wrong in my books. I would find another shop to do work on your car next time. If you need someone to have a look at the tensioner I will be in windsor at the end of the month. I have an old good tensioner we can compare it to.

With 215k on the car I hope they did more to the head than throw in new valves and put it back together. Was the head inspected? When I took mine in for a valve job at about 200K they found all the valve guides on the exhaust side were shot and needed to be replaced. I hope they put new valve stem seals on too or you'll be blowing smoke before too long.....