The original poster of a certain insurance question wanted to be removed from the discussion (for reasons that will become obvious below).

Here is the original question and the resulting discussion follows..



I think if you have no convictions for it under the HTA and no claims under your name, then yes you can shop around.
Whether you are obligated to disclose it when you apply, I'm not sure. Other than through claims and abstracts, I don't know how they could find out...

Yes, the driver of the vehical is concidered at fault and it would go on that drivers record and would be accessible for 3 years, your fathers preimiums will go up aswell because he made a claim and that claim will be recorded and will stick for as long as he stays with that same company, again it is only accessible for 3 years for everyone else, but insurance is shady, and some hold a grudge and will pass on info that is technically not accessible, be very carefull when dealing with insurance, it seems the more you ask around the more you pay. Your best bet is to find a good insurance broker they are your freind and will look out for you. Insurance has no boundries or authority over them and is a scam IMO.

Accidents remain on record of insurance holder. Charges/tickets remain on the driver's record.


http://www.ibc.ca/en/Car_Insurance/Introduction/Lending_Borrowing_Car.asp

"If you are borrowing a car
* The person whose car you are borrowing must give you permission to use it.
* The use of the car cannot be part of a regular pattern, such as driving to school every day. (If you regularly borrow the same car as part of a routine, you must be listed on the owner’s insurance policy as an occasional driver.)
* You must be a licensed driver who is legally allowed to drive in the province.

If you have an accident while driving a borrowed car, the accident goes on the record of the person who has the insurance policy on the borrowed car..

If you are lending your car
* You must consent to its use by the other driver.
* The person who borrows your car cannot be using it as part of a regular routine. If your friend uses your car every Friday to go grocery shopping, then he/she must be named on your insurance policy as an occasional driver.
* The person to whom you lend your car must be a licensed driver who is legally allowed to drive in the province.

If the person borrowing your car has an accident while driving your car, it goes on your insurance record. When you lend your car, you are also lending your good driving record."

Heres a video which emphasizes that you CAN lend your car (and driving record).

http://www.ibc.ca/en/You_Wanted_to_Know/audiovideo/borrow_car.wmv

If a borrower gets into an accident, the accident reflects on the lender, not the driver.

Obviously consult directly with the insurance broker and if they stress that you have been in an accident, maybe the IBC can confirm/deny whether or not the accident counts against you ?

Do insurance companies promote the lending of vehicles, so in the case of at faults accidents, which oh ya are also no fault accidents they can punish both the driver and the lender?

Where's Grant?

Mods should rename this thread to: GRANT TO THE RESCUE!

Someone fire up the Grantman Signal

I'm right here guys, I saw the bat signal!

In short, you're a bit screwed.

The rule of thumb is, "when you lend your car, you lend your insurance" so that means when your dad claimed it, it was covered under his policy so his policy was affected at that time.

However, because you are the driver, YOU also have an at-fault accident on your record as well.

Essentially, you are being double dinged and it sucks, but it's the law.

Told ya, I new it, its a scam. So assentially what your saying is that they are double dipping, and eventually get double there money back and then some I would say, but using the system as leverage plus there own tid-bits of info everyone is at fault, even a person that had nothing to do with causing an acident phones in to make a claim, they either pay a deductible that is usually equivalant to the cost of repairs or they up your premium and make you pay for the damage twice over 3-4years, and then some.

Well, you clearly don't know what accidents truly cost an insurance company, but yes.

PM me your dl # and I'll tell you EXACTLY what's on your record.

Your almost making me feel bad for those poor insurance companies, they can't even feed themselves there just scrapping buy off the back side of the middle class, thats why there is hardly any of them around now a days, baha..

's $3000 claim could have easily been a $300,000 claim which no matter what his premiums would be, would never be repaid in his lifetime.

There's admin costs for the people that take the claim, costs for adjusters to go our and survey the damage, more admin costs for determining fault, settling payment, rental car coverage, etc. that you never think about.

The AVERAGE claim in Ontario is $38,000.

Yes I've seen that take place over a dent on a hood, a guy had a rental car for two weeks well his perfectly drivable car sat in a compund waiting to be worked on, I'm sure the cost of the rental exceeded the cost of repairs, but insurance companies are soooo big that they cannot take the time to figure out that the car is drivable and that a two week rental is not nessesary if they would take the time to properly access the damage and the take the time to bring it in the shop when they are ready to work on it, but I guess thats how it works with a company with no face and bottomless pockets, we are just another number on a big list of suckers that have no choice but to follow the laws set out in our province, even though there are no specific laws to control the insurance company from raising rates without proper justified reasoning.. I'm all for brokers, but in the long run the middle class pays for it because insurance companies created a mess that they connot control. This is just the tip of the iceberg, try to cancel your insurance and see what other hidden fees arise. This is just a rant, nothing I can do about it just ignore me.

So let me get this straight, two cars each of which are being driven by people who borrowed vehicles from their friends.

Gingerly driving down the street, they change lanes into each other causing $2,000 of damage to each vehicle.

This accident is deemed "no fault" so both owners of the vehicles have an at fault claim, and both drivers (borrower of the vehicle) both have at fault accidents on their records.

So in essence after deductibles are paid by the owners assuming they both claim this accident this insurance company will pay out roughly $3,000 in claims and (4) peoples records will be extremely negatively effected?

This seems just so criminal to me its insane.

"this seems just so criminal to me"

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ exatly!

I see insurance as a bank with super inflated interest rates.
Just go to your normal bank and get a loan for repairs.. or a line of credit.
Screw going through insurance.

Theoretically, yes.

The 'norm' is 6 years. Some companies go back 10 years, we surcharge for 3 and go back 5 so we are one of the most leanient in Ontario.

It's pretty simple if you just don't lend your car out to anyone you wouldn't trust to cover the extra cost if an accident ever occured.

Yes, there is a LOT of uncertainty about auto insurance in Ontario.

It's mostly because each situation is different, there isn't really a one rule covers all scenario.

Not really sure that would be the best idea either.

Generally speaking, I tell people $1500 is the magic number. If it's going to cost you more than that out of pocket it's worth it to make the claim, if it's less than that, just make the claim.

We don't authorize a rental car until the car is ready to be repaired if it's still in driveable condition.

In fact, the first question we ask when taking an accident report is "Is the vehicle still driveable?"

I'm curious.. Who keeps track of the "at fault" accident when there is no ticket/conviction and no claim put through the driver's insurance?

If there is no claim made and no phone call to your insurance company, there is NO record of it, EVEN if you report it to the accident reporting centre.

All accident and claim records are managed in a database by CGU Canada, Inc.

All traffic infractions and licensing databases are manged by the MTO.

So, is the moral of this story that if no charges were laid, one should never admit that the vehicle was lent to someone? Since the OWNER is screwed anyways, might as well just say he was driving??

I could never condone lying to your insurance company. That's a slippery slope.

Misrepresentation remains on your record for 10 years.

True, and I agree, our system is pretty evil here (as in Ontario, not our company, haha).

I see. So in 's case, when the claim went in for the vehicle he borrowed, it's likely that the insurance company took note of his DL# and forwarded the information to CGU.

If there was no claim, is simply an admission of fault enough to get into the database?

Are there any rules or process in place to ensure that this is not abused?

Does the public have access to this database similar to requesting an abstract from the MTO?

Thanks for answering my questions, I'm sure you don't mind

1. Of course. They record the driver's info as well as the registered owners.

2. If there is no claim, how would the insurance company know about it anyways?

3. Not abused by which party?

4. Yes, but you would have to request it from your insurance company. Given that most companies go 6 years back, you would have to account for all 6 years which means if you switched companies every year, you will need 6 "Letters of Experience" or LOE's.

5. It's my pleasure.

^^^
2. If there is no claim, how would the insurance company know about it anyways?

- If I call them and say I rear-ended someone, but I just want to know what the procedure is. It ends up being settled without a claim. Could a record still end up at CGU?

3. Not abused by which party?

- The insurance company. As above, if there must be a claim to result in a CGU record then I would hope that CGU requires specific documentation as proof of the claim.
If there does not need to be a claim, then what information would CGU require to validate the entry of a record?

2. With most companies, as soon as you call in, your are logged and recorded. Even if you do not go through with a claim, you will still receive an at fault accident on your record. With our company, we do NOT do that and actually offer our personal advice as to which route to take.

3. I'm not certain on the exact criteria that CGU requires in order for them to document and record the incident.

Obviously a claim would present them with the info they require but in the case of #2 even an admission of guilt would be entered and recorded by your insurance company and subsequently, CGU.

That's a little bit wild wild west..
And they wonder why many drivers don't play by the rules?!

This system is absolutely broken with double standards and no reasonable oversight.

Can't say I'm surprised, though

//edit
Is there even a dispute process for a CGU record?
What if the insurance company's hotline (outsourced to Bangalore) misinterprets the phone call?
What if they rear-ended me? Simple communication breakdown, 6 years of pain.

Rob, I wholeheartedly agree with you.

Yes, there are many steps you can take to dispute a claim/descision made against you.

They are all outlined at www.fsco.ca

at least one way it's downhill 4 miles...

Oh here's another good one, if your late on a payment they ream you for that to, if your a guy = reamed, if you drive a nice car you must have money = reamed, if you have a 15km over speeding tickit = reamed, If you pay monthly = reamed, I could go on but I guess what I'm getting @ is they are out of control crooks.

Which leads me to realize, and I hate to repeat me Dad, but "write your MP" kick up a fuss, its is our only choice in Canada.

I'm sorry but I am far from a cook. I go out of my way regularly to save my clients the maximum amount of money possible while at the same time giving them the least amount of inconvenience I can.

1. If you are late on a payment - OF COURSE we treat that seriously. We are covering you for upwards of a million dollars worth of damage you can cause, the least you can do is make your payments on time.

2. If you are a guy - Yes, males UNDER 25 pay more for their insurance. Why? Because they have statistically proven that males under 25 cause more accidents and females under 25. That's called age and gender based rating.

3. If you drive a nice car - Well, let's see. If you 91 Talon gets stolen, it's going to cost us $2500. If your 2010 Porsche 911 997TT gets stolen, it's going to cost us $190,000. Who do you think should pay more for their coverage?

4. If you have a ticket - Statistics show that someone who has the propensity to get a ticket is more likely to be involved in an auto accident (whether it be at fault or not at fault). If you don't like it, follow the rules of the road.

5. If you pay monthly - Ya, you got us there. The 75 CENTS we charge on a monthly basis is enough to cause an uproar. Again, if you don't like that extra $9 per year, manage your money better so you can pay your yearly premium up front to save your 75 cents/mth.

Any other myths you'd like me to defunct?

By the way, I don't know any other crooks that have to go to school for years, pass yearly tests and follow strict Government rules and regulations in order to be criminals.

I actually think you should be penalized in some way for these things, especially the missing a payment and monthly thing.

I just think Ontario's auto insurance system is broken, it's overrun by insurance lobbyists who control the provincial government.

People overpay big time on premiums only to live in fear of ever claiming. Not to mention if you happen to get in an accident even a small one and you call them to inquire, they just red flag you regardless if you claim or not.

The fear is justified.

Hate to disagree with you Grant, but I think that just described a lot of the BIG TIME crooks...

I agree, insurance in Ontario IS broken. We really need to go back to the days when insurance was optional, and when, for a reasonble fee, you were permitted to drive on the road while taking your chances.

And what happens when someone is 'unlucky', ends up severely injuring someone, causing environmental damage, and costing well in excess of several hundred thousand dollars and doesn't have it??

They have taken the risk of not driving without insurance, and will pay for it for X amount of years. Just like if one was to get their car stolen, and not have comprehensive coverage. They will be paying for it for X amount of years.

I had to make two claims two years ago. I will pay for the repair values of all cars involved by the time Its off my record in 6 years.

I agree with Mike's statement above. And I also agree with Grant's statement as well, the bottom line is, each persons situation is different, so each person needs to do things different to best benefit them.