Exhaust Manifold Stud Removal & Install
#401014
April 22, 2013 08:24 pm UTC
April 22, 2013 08:24 pm UTC
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Salomon Ponte
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Got a new set of exhaust manifold studs coming in with my FP Race Manifold that I'm picking up tomorrow (:D). Just want to ask for any tips on removing the current studs so as to avoid broken studs in the head (I really, REALLY don't want to have to pull the head, nor can I afford to do a HG job right now). As for installation, I was thinking of throwing on some ultra high-heat (the fancy copper stuff) anti-seize on the studs, but I read that on the 6-bolts one of the studs contacts an oil passage? Is this true? If so, which one is it and should I throw on some copper RTV or something to help it seal? For installing the new studs, is there a certain depth? From this list here it says that ~28mm of the stud should be protruding from the head - is this correct? Also, the torque for the exhaust stud nuts is ~20ft-lbs, correct? And lastly, to verify, the manifold to turbo bolts should be torqued to ~ 45ft-lbs, correct? (No anti-sieze or anything here. New OEM bolts and lock washers being used).
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Stud Removal & Install
[Re: Salomon Ponte]
#401017
April 22, 2013 08:28 pm UTC
April 22, 2013 08:28 pm UTC
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Bradley Woodward
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The mani-turbo bolts are a torque to this and turn an additional X degrees style. Only use OEM bolts and the disc springs. I generally chase the threads with a tap to prevent them locking up on you.
Good chance your old turbo bolts are seized in there, depending on the last time the turbo was removed.
All my studs came out no problem YMMV.
Last edited by Bradley Woodward; April 22, 2013 08:29 pm UTC.
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Stud Removal & Install
[Re: Bradley Woodward]
#401019
April 22, 2013 08:33 pm UTC
April 22, 2013 08:33 pm UTC
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Salomon Ponte
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The mani-turbo bolts are a torque to this and turn an additional X degrees style. Only use OEM bolts and the disc springs. I generally chase the threads with a tap to prevent them locking up on you.
Good chance your old turbo bolts are seized in there, depending on the last time the turbo was removed.
All my studs came out no problem YMMV. It was out just before I put her away in the fall, so she's barely had any driving on it, so it shouldn't be TOO bad...hopefully. But I've never gotten a turbo off without at least one broken bolt in the hotside... I learned my lesson with the ARP turbo bolts (GARBAGE) to stick to OEM. I've always used the OEM spring washers as well...got a new set coming with the manifold. Do you know what the torque and 'x degrees' amount is? And lastly, I always chase those threads and the O2 housing threads a few times before reinstalling cause I know how much of a PITA those bolts can be.
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Stud Removal & Install
[Re: Salomon Ponte]
#401026
April 22, 2013 09:27 pm UTC
April 22, 2013 09:27 pm UTC
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Posts: 1,950 Guelph, Ontario
Jeremy Gilbert
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I think I had 4-5 snap on me. There was still enough thread to get 2 nuts on it so that I could back the stud out of the head. Didn't have to drill/extract a single one, regardless of the breakages. Didn't use any heat. I believe the center stud on the bottom is the one that has an oil passage behind it (double check; I'm not certain). As far as I know, the FP studs are the proper length so that you install them until the thread disappears. I torqued the nuts to tight I've never heard of having to use thread sealant. I didn't use any. Edit: When I searched for myself, I found 45ft-lbs on the turbo bolts was most frequently recommended (and is what is listed in the 1g Haynes manual).
Last edited by Jeremy Gilbert; April 22, 2013 09:28 pm UTC.
1995 TSi AWD 11.7@119 1.8 60' - Curse of the Bad Driver PHP: 0
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Stud Removal & Install
[Re: Stephen Richardson]
#401051
April 23, 2013 01:13 am UTC
April 23, 2013 01:13 am UTC
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Salomon Ponte
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Grab a can of Turbogas High heat, It has a big more kick then BBQ fluid.
Torque specs are 44 for the charger to mani and 22 charger to o2 housing, never heard of the torque to yield spec Neither did I (the T-to-Y spec), which is why I was surprised to hear that. Rob, does the pipe joint compound stand up to the heat?...I feel like it wouldn't do too well in that kind of heat, which is why I suggested the ultra-high-heat copper anti-seize.
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Stud Removal & Install
[Re: Salomon Ponte]
#401061
April 23, 2013 01:58 am UTC
April 23, 2013 01:58 am UTC
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Bradley Woodward
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the T-to-Y was from my 2g hanes. I'll double check the mitsu manual in the morning ( I have it at work not home).
I use the copper on everything. Realistically I think even that doesn't do anything at those temps, but I feel like I have to try. It smokes like crazy the first time you get the turbo hot.
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Stud Removal & Install
[Re: Salomon Ponte]
#401197
April 24, 2013 12:55 pm UTC
April 24, 2013 12:55 pm UTC
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Bradley Woodward
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Yep, maybe its a 2g thing, mitsu manual says 20-23ft-lbs + 60-70 degrees.
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Stud Removal & Install
[Re: Salomon Ponte]
#401214
April 24, 2013 03:46 pm UTC
April 24, 2013 03:46 pm UTC
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Bradley Woodward
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Nope Johnny the spec I gave is straight from the 2G mitsu manual for turbo to manifold bolts.
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Stud Removal & Install
[Re: Salomon Ponte]
#401271
April 25, 2013 02:15 am UTC
April 25, 2013 02:15 am UTC
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Bryan Lawrence
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I watched a video of this guy using a drill bit that was reverse threaded to extract a broken bolt. Maybe see if you can find those, search youtube there is a video.
"Old Blue" 91 Talon TSi AWD "Super Enthusiast" 91 Talon TSi AWD Checkout DSMFAQ.com!
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Stud Removal & Install
[Re: Salomon Ponte]
#401278
April 25, 2013 02:40 am UTC
April 25, 2013 02:40 am UTC
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Bradley Woodward
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So the stud broke off in the head and there is nothing sticking out?
If you do end up deciding to drill it out make damn well sure you get a good centre punched into it before you start. If your drill bit goes off centre you will tear through the head and end up with a mess.
I've had good sucess with welding on a piece of steel and using that to turn it out (never tried it there though).
BOOST...Boo-Yah
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Stud Removal & Install
[Re: Salomon Ponte]
#401297
April 25, 2013 04:45 am UTC
April 25, 2013 04:45 am UTC
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Salomon Ponte
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Okay...bought some remover bits...they suck ass. I could see the bit twisting but the head not moving...so I vetoed that well before it busted in the head too.
Took a good 30 minutes just to drill into the bolt (I've got about 50+ centre punches, so finding one wasn't an issue)...
Once I decided against the remover, I just drilled 'er out and heli-coiled her, and the other hole that had gummed up threads too. The one that had the busted stud (yah...it wasn't flush, it actually broke off recessed...so it was even worse)may have been a hair off centre but my nice, new FP studs went in easy and my new FP manifold went on without a hitch, so they must be 'straight enough'. Just came on the comp to look up the proper torquing order for the manifold nuts.
On a sidenote...drilling out and helicoiling a turbine housing SUCKS. I had to do 3 of the 4 holes (manifold-to-turbo, the O2 housing holes are good) and it takes FOREVER. Never again...
Johnny, if I don't get her finished in the morning (unlikely), I'll be working on her again tomorrow night. I've got to head out to Tillsonburg for a 3pm meeting, then I'm stopping in Loo on the way back and then home. Really hoping to have her done to make the drive tomorrow but we'll see...
Last edited by Salomon Ponte; April 25, 2013 04:47 am UTC.
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Stud Removal & Install
[Re: Johnny Larmond]
#401302
April 25, 2013 07:11 am UTC
April 25, 2013 07:11 am UTC
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Salomon Ponte
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Keep me in the loop man. I really like heli-coils, but damn they're $$ and drilling into the turbine housing or O2 housing? F that... The drilling was the easy part...tapping took me years... I borrowed the sets from Jeremy. I definitely owe him...but don't tell him I said that. Haha...manifold is torqued down. Turbo is bolted up and torqued down. This will be the first time I've ever had my exhaust manifold and/or turbo held on by all bolts...and all torqued down to proper values. For the 1 turbo bolt I couldn't get at with a socket and for the manifold nuts I couldn't get at with a socket, I just did my best to tighten as evenly as possible....I'm excited!
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Stud Removal & Install
[Re: Salomon Ponte]
#401307
April 25, 2013 11:57 am UTC
April 25, 2013 11:57 am UTC
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Zvonko Vrbatovic
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Best way to deal with broken studs... Got to hate when that happens Equipment: Drill few quality drill bits stud extractors set kirner (don't know how to call it in English) something made of steel that has a pointy sharp end small socket from a wrench that will fit perfectly on a hole of the head, then you drill a hole with a drill bit that will match the kirner perfectly Place the kirner in, hit it with a hammer (so you dent the stud exactly in the center) Take the drill make a deep enough hole Get the extractor kit and some patience And hopefully [img] http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2761/dsc00648m.jpg[/img] If that doesn't work ... you have a perfect center whole. Drill as much without f****** up the thread and make a new thread.
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Stud Removal & Install
[Re: Salomon Ponte]
#401308
April 25, 2013 12:00 pm UTC
April 25, 2013 12:00 pm UTC
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Bradley Woodward
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Brilliant, never thought of that!
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Stud Removal & Install
[Re: Salomon Ponte]
#401323
April 25, 2013 03:17 pm UTC
April 25, 2013 03:17 pm UTC
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Ziggy Dietrich
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The "kirner" is a centre punch in english. The left hand drilling and the tapping around the perimeter will generally ONLY work if the part is not seized in there, just happened to break off (like from overtightening, but the bolt had never hit bottom). If it is seized, drilling and re-tapping are pretty much your only options. Heat can help. Heat the bolt itself(not the area around it), and wait about 3-5 minutes after heating before trying to remove it. The EZ outs (screw extractors) don't even bother with a cheap set, you will end up breaking that off in the hole. It is worth investing in a GOOD set.
"bluebird" worlds fastest scooter ridden by me "Whitebird" RIP
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Stud Removal & Install
[Re: Salomon Ponte]
#401360
April 25, 2013 10:06 pm UTC
April 25, 2013 10:06 pm UTC
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Salomon Ponte
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Indeed, fantastic writeup. The set of extractors I picked up was a cheap set from CT, and as I mentioned, I could see it twisting while the stud stayed motionless, so I stopped that immediately. Drilling and retapping was really quite simple and very effective. All my helicoils in the head and the turbine housing held up to the proper torque without issue.
'92 Talon TSi AWD - 5 Speed/E16G/12.385s @ 115.13mph
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Stud Removal & Install
[Re: Jeff Mitchell]
#401373
April 25, 2013 11:47 pm UTC
April 25, 2013 11:47 pm UTC
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Zvonko Vrbatovic
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I see your "kirner" is a plunger from a diesel injector, very hard, makes a great center punch. hhehehe yea it is Best way to deal with broken studs... I like this guy Nice writeup. Zvonko your english is better than most of the rest of us! You should only hear me talk XD I can pick up accents like nobody ... a lot of ppl think I am screwing around with them XD Dammit ... just thinking about all the tools I will have to leave behind makes me wanna cry Or hire a C-17 and take my garage with me XD
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Stud Removal & Install
[Re: Salomon Ponte]
#401432
April 26, 2013 12:59 pm UTC
April 26, 2013 12:59 pm UTC
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Zvonko Vrbatovic
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I am gonna have to take a few pictures of my garage ... I don't think it would even fit in one container. 2 CNC machines(one small one big) 2 Geared head drill press 1 Drill Press Big stand Cut-Off Saw ... Around 15m of workbench with tool wall stuffed with various tools. + the biggest problem of all Don't have the cash to move all that atm. But I will move that to CA one day. In the meantime I hope some of you guys in GTA have a place to work in Will gladly help with anything... I don't think I would stay sane without a garage more then a month XD
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Stud Removal & Install
[Re: Salomon Ponte]
#401433
April 26, 2013 01:06 pm UTC
April 26, 2013 01:06 pm UTC
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,263 Niagara Falls, Ontario
Ziggy Dietrich
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What kind of CNC machines?
You will find the guys on this forum to be awesome, and someone will have a spot for you. If you are down Niagara Falls way, I could offer you use of some of my machines (as long as nothing is running on them at the moment).
"bluebird" worlds fastest scooter ridden by me "Whitebird" RIP
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Stud Removal & Install
[Re: Salomon Ponte]
#401435
April 26, 2013 01:15 pm UTC
April 26, 2013 01:15 pm UTC
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Zvonko Vrbatovic
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I like you guys already, and can't wait to meet you I just checked, container 40f would cost me around 3700$ If I have that amount when I move, I would rather buy Peter's Talon Sorry about OT
Last edited by Zvonko Vrbatovic; April 26, 2013 01:16 pm UTC.
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Re: Exhaust Manifold Stud Removal & Install
[Re: Ziggy Dietrich]
#401437
April 26, 2013 01:20 pm UTC
April 26, 2013 01:20 pm UTC
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Zvonko Vrbatovic
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What kind of CNC machines? Ups typo and lost in translation XD I rushed in writing ... mine are not a CNC (al tho I worked on those) I have the "manual" ones (don't know the name in English) like these:
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