I know some people have e-mailed me about this already. If you wanted to pick one up now is your chance. So called "un-official" and un-supported by dsmlink.com.

But if you can't increase your timing with a slider then maybe this isn't for you:)

You will receive the propriatery OBD2 connector for your car, the DSMLink chip, as well as a serial cable for your laptop to tune. Software is free for download on their website. Thank you.

Can you please define for us what an "un-official and un-supported" DSMLink chip and setup is?

How is it unsupported?

How many do you have?

Thanks...

You're ripping off the people that worked their asses off to create this amazing product. Do you sell CDs of Microsoft and advertise that? I bought my V2 from DSMLink and the guys over there are simply amazing to deal with. I can't believe you'd rip them off like this and to do it out in the open like this.

I've now also received this by email:

"> Michael is also semi well known in the CA.DSM "inner" community for
> the person to go to for the purchase of a DSMLink copy, he was at the
> DSM Invasion in TO in July with a DSMLink "copy" for sale, I know of a
> couple he has sold."

Care to comment Michael?

I don't think the excuses you used HERE are going to work too well.

Especially, considering THIS .

When I was shopping for a used version of DSMLink I was given his contact. I of course never followed up on him because I don't want to support someone who takes someone's hard work, plops it in an EPROM burner and sells it for his gain.

I feel sorry for the guys at DSMLink. They've made an INCREDIBLE product and they can't make the full money they deserve for such a fine product.

...everything I read, shows Michael backing down and claiming he just needs to unload "this one I am stuck with".

Yet, multiple people, over multiple months have reported buying them from him.

Where's the truth Michael?

Fess up, and you might be forgiven.
Fess up not, and we might have to take a walk down dixington...

Ok, Michael hasn't even replied yet, but every 5 mins now, I get another email, sending me to another web page to read his ads selling these things.

No way you ever just owned only one, and "by accident".

Here's the thoght process, ok Michael?
Because this discussion has been had before. It started for DSMs, specifically, when people started copying, and then modifying the ToddsMods chips for the 1G ECU.

History...
Todd Day, did an excellent job of reverse egineering the 1G ECU code, enhancing it, and then selling that functionality upgrade.
Unfortunately, it wasn't enough for him to live off of, and the rest of his life took priority.
He stopped supporting it, and it disappeared.

I have heard many since then argue, that it's ok to copy his, because you can't buy it any more.
While I don't agree with that mentality, I can at least understand it.
People are DESPERATE for the functionality, would pay for it if they could, and are getting it any way they can.


However, this is far from the case, with DSMLink. Thomas and Dave, have gone above the beyond, to develop, sell, and support their product. You can buy it today, online.
It's freely availble.

No excuses.
If you don't like the price tag, don't buy it... but for what it does, it should be $1000 US, with an annual support fee.

Enough!

I agree 100% about the support fee. The information I see in the DSMLink forums is simply outstanding. I'd say 75% of that information comes directly from Thomas and Dave themselves.

For Michael to just sell it for his own personal gain is pretty low.

Ok first of all, you posted like an hour apart and expect me to reply within that time period, I don't spend 24hr/day infront of my computer un-like you.

Secondly I would REALLY recommend for you to re-read your post and really think hard about what you just said regarding "..take a walk down dixington". Can you please elaborate for me? I fail to see the reasoning in your ignorant arrogance and the need to post something like this on a public forum.

What EXACTLY is it that you want to do after you reach the end of my street? Do you expect/hope to meet me there? Are you going to call out my name in hopes that I come out? Perhaps you want "kick my ass" for some reason? If so, then why would you let me know in advance that you're "..walking down dixington." Why not just simply come and get across whatever it is you're trying to because obviously on-line forums are not good enough to resolve disputes and you must take higher measures to solve your problems.

Thirdly, I really do not know where or who you're getting these e-mails from and obviously I don't care, but for what it's worth, I've had my DSM for about 6months in total, and have sold ONE dsmlink package and NOT MORE, wether you believe me or not is irrelevant, i`m posting this information for reference purposes.

I DO NOT make the chip, cable, connector or any part of this setup.. in-fact, it's not even made in Canada at all, and I have personally NEVER EVER had any personal contact with the person who is responsible for reverse-engineering this product.

And also, if you you're so good at searching for previous posts, why don't you go after the person who bought this? I don't see flame-wars happening with anybody e-mailed me about wanting to buy one, it looks like it's not the people willing to spend $$ that are fueling this "rip-off" but infact the people who make the plastic connectors, really, stop kidding yourself.

I have NOT been selling this for "months" and i have NOT sold "multiple" copies. One in total and NOT more.

NOW, if you still feel the need to show off your incredible i-net skills and post more of my information and take it upon yourself to feel free to distribute private personal information, then that is your choice, but atleast live up to it and don't be arrogant about it. I`m willing to have an education discussion about this but only on fair terms. Otherwise, please live up to your offer and come for a "..walk down dixington".

p.s.: For what it's worth, I know there are alot of people on this forum who I have dealth with (non-dsmlink related) that can vouche that I`m an "all-right" guy and mean no direct harm. I invite you NOT to buy what I offered if you believe it is un-ethical, otherwise, let's please grow up and have a discussion about this if you should choose to do so.

Thank You.

Our incredible i-net skills are actually www.411.ca See how many Druciarek's there are in Canada. :rolleyes: Personal information. Yep so personal anyone with a keyboard and an internet connection can dig it up.

So.. I have yet to see where in the above post you say you are NOT attempting to sell pirated software on our UBB.

I don't care WHO makes it. This is NOT a case of you getting "scammed" from the DSMTrader as you claimed on the BC DSM UBB.

So, tell us, Michael: Where do the lies stop, and the truth begin? All I see here is someone selling pirated software that can be obtained legally. Can you show me that it is something different? Whether *I* think this is ethical, or not, doesn't matter.

Amen Steve.

And Michael, the only reason to mention "dixington" was simply to confirm that was your home address.
Thank you for confirming that.

I guess none of you guys that are so outraged have ever used any illegally copied software/music (it being ms windows or downloading music/movies through kaaza or whatever). Because that is basically the same thing...and if you have than it makes you a hypocrite.

I am not trying to condone what's being done, but let's get real here, it happens everywhere all the time and noone gives a ****.

Hey Mike,
I'm not one for knowing the legality issues but what you are doing seems illegal to me. Pirating copywrited software is a crime. Before anything gets out of hand with authorities, I suggest you stop selling these products and hope for the best. I know the people here at DSM Canada are great people. I've bought a few things from Steve before and he's a great guy. I'm sure everyone will let this go without warning anyone with power off the net.

We're outraged because things like this can SHUT DOWN this UBB.

[EDit: Since you brought it up: I can honestly say that I HAVE NOT, nor WILL I EVER sell pirated software. Of ANY kind. You'll find that anyone using this UBB as a means to distribute ANY form of pirated goods is met with the same responses that Michael is getting from us.]

I don't understand your logic that if it's done enough, it must be alright. If I whack enough people on the head with a big stick, is it eventually going to be "OK"? I don't think so.

Wouldn't you appreciate it if someone stopped me from whacking you on the head with a big stick? Thought so. Thomas/Dave also appreciate anyone stopping the piracy of their software, I'm sure.

Jakub: "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."

I am very familiar with what you speak of. I'm in the damn IT industry.

We act, where we can do some good.

This is not some nameless, faceless movie studio that makes billions in PROFIT from the box office. Or some (again) nameless, faceless software giant that couldn't care less about you, or that copy of Excel you run secretly to track your timeslips.

These are two real guys, who would answer the phone at 10pm at night, and help you, if you needed it. These are two guys who know their sh!t, and are willing the share, for a very reasonable price.

No one gives a sh!t?
Bull.
I do.
That's why the replies.

"I am not trying to condone what's being done, but let's get real here, it happens everywhere all the time and noone gives a ****."

The people that will come and shut this site down will care. Then we all will care.

Don't try and muddy the situation with your own personal rebelion against the system. This is wrong. It is putting our site at risk. It won't be tolerated. We don't care what everyone else is doing through psuedo protected mediums... we care about the existance of this site.

You guys obviously missed my point...
A theft is a theft; it does not matter if you steal candy from baby or illegally copy software that you have not purchased.
I am looking at this situation from a bystander perspective.
You can't punish someone that stole from a big corporations less than someone that stole from a homeless guy. It may seem not fair, but nonetheless that's the fact.
I understand that this is a gross display of balant piracy. I for one buy all my software, because I understand that if piracy keeps up, we'll end up with no games/software or the registration process will become a severe pain in the ass.
All I am getting at is, it is not fair for someone that copies games/movies whatever to come in here bash this guy because he's copying DSM software that you know someone has worked very hard for.
I am being objective, devil's advocate, call it what you want.
Mike,
It seems like you hold a personal grudge against me for some reason. I don't know why and quite frankly I don't care.
I am though in title to state my opinion, weather you like it or not.
No one raised the point of the board being in danger of shutting down before I made my post. If that were the case, why don't you ban Michael and delete his post.

You're devil's advocate is ignoring the fact that this pirated software is not being used for personal use. It is being SOLD for personal gain.

VERY different.

Ok first of all, you should now delete your post or ban yourself since you've violated rule #2 of "Buy & sell" section according to:

2:It is a needless reply, Great it's a nice car, or a good price, if you are not going to buy it or place an offer, don't reply.

Secondly, you say I fail to prove that this is not a pirated version. How about you help me and show me where I state that this is NOT a pirated version, was it advertised as such? I must have trouble reading my own posts, so I would be greatfull if you could point that out.

As for "when do the lies stop", again you state something totally random that I cannot answer because I yet again fail to see during which point of my original post I've lied.

I HAVE stated this is not the official version
I HAVE stated you cannot upgrade to V2.
I HAVE stated what you receive in the package
I HAVE stated the price.

Have I missed some rule here of posting? If so, I will edit my post to you liking, but so far I've been willing to answer any and all concerns and questions anybody has had, so I fail to see how I refuse to "co-operate" if you will.

And to Andrew Bienhaus, you thank me for "confirming"? Ofcourse I will confirm, where you not sure weather it was the right address, and didn't know which one to pick from the total of 1 druciarek's displayed? I`m happy to help you on your journey to personal fullfilment of finding out people's addresses. Now are you still going to visit me or was it just a useless display kindergarden horse-play?.

To Jakub Kowalczyk, one person who seems to have some morals, although he openly stated he dis-agrees with what I`m doing, he also admitted he's done and seen others do similiar things, which I think is the most open and thruthfull reply so far. Thanks for the reply and your honest opinion.

Never mind, I am done here...

No, you've missed some rule of the criminal code. It is ILLEGAL to sell pirated software. The rules of this UBB don't supercede the law.

As far as my posts being useless, they were an attempt to CONFIRM that you were, in fact, attempting to sell pirated software. Since there is no question of that now obviously, you are not welcome here.

In regards to "Kindergarten" games to confirm your address: We wanted to make SURE it was yours. Imagine what would happen if we were to give the WRONG address to Thomas, and Dave? I shudder to think what might become of THAT.

You are going to try and use the UBB rules against the owner of this board protecting his right to run this board. Sell your illegal goods elsewhere.

And if you can't figure out why your address was verified, it's because it was likely looked up in the DSMLink buyers list. I know I was talking to Dave about this and he was already aware about it.

"Mike,
It seems like you hold a personal grudge against me for some reason. I don't know why and quite frankly I don't care.
I am though in title to state my opinion, weather you like it or not."

No grudge at all . Not to be rude but I can't put a face to your name or recall any other discussion we have had offhand. If we have argued it is because we have differnt opinions on the particular subject not because of some grudge. I too am aloud to voice my opinion.

My post was written in a matter of fact without emotion form. If it reads differently I'm sorry. If I was blunt it was just to avoid this thread from turning into a global disscussion on piracy.

You make one valid point Michael... this post doesn't belong in here any more.

it should be in the bad-guy section.

Thanks for the heads up.

You guys make valid points, however, I think adding "I Profit From the Work of Others" to his posts is a bit immature (even though it's probably true).

Scotty

Steve Kinnaird: Can you further illustrtate on how this can get the board "shut down"? I would like detail if possible.

And also explain how you can compare inside the same statement how causing physical harm in your world is compared to item duplication.

And again, you say "pirated" software is being sold for personal gain. Where did dsmlink get mitsu's code in the first place. The COPIED, then proceeded to MODIFY propritery code, and then MARKET AND SELL someone's creation FOR PROFIT. What is wrong with the hypocrisism in your post?

HOW IN THE WORLD does modifying code make it "OK" for someone to claim it as their own and sell it?! Am I really the only one who sees the paradox in this?!

And confirming my address, yea, actually I CANNOT imagine what would happen should you give them the wrong address, perhaps my b-day card would have never made it to my house. And why didn't they just ask for my address? They going to send me $$ in the mail? Perhaps a post-card? How nice of them.

Noah Wiles: What was I thinking, OFCOURSE it's ok for bush to drop a nuke on the US, after all it's HIS country, he can do whatever he wants, and bend the rules so they nicely suit him in just whatever he wants to do. Ohhh no wait, that's already happening here.

And what would my address be doing in the DSMLink user registry? I never purchased dsmlink from them.

Mike Jackson: We've met before.. in-fact I was a nice guy and even let you use MY tools to tighten the bolt on your turbo (or DP). Imagine that, people letting other's use someone else's creation, unheard of. Maybe I should have charged for that, and have myself be called a tool-pirate with personal gain in-mind.
----------------------------------------------

As all of you remember some time-ago, our friend Ziggy Dietrich also got flamed and reamed for making duplicated products of others' design. I`m sure he knows what i`m going through at this point.

If you look a few posts below me, a person is selling "used DVD's", I doubt he's received threats of "walking down" his street, or his personal address publicly listed.

Another person was selling pirated software, OEM version of XP, also made by microsoft and sold in order to make profit.

People are selling HKS re-grinds, guess what! they're HKS's idea and someone copied it, BUT NOBODY cares for some reason.

In my opinion, if the MODs would have played it smarter, they would have simply sent me a PM telling to remove my post and abstain from posting such material otherwise i will be banned.

Guess what, maybe I would have listened? But they chose to STICKY the post, and make a BIG DEAL out of this, making it even WORSE for dsmlink to get rid of these things.

Michael you are wrong you got caught a judgement has been made. You rolled the diced and lost now move along cause there is nothing to see here.

I make one post. Then half the board decides what I`m doing is wrong and bombards me with accusations and questions, get threatened that if I don't "fess up" I will be banned, then I try and answer everything I can and get told to shut up cuz it's over. I was not the one who wanted this to go this far and out of proportion.

This is has already gone further than it should have. Everything that was ment to be said was said, and I think everyone should forget about this and be able to sleep at night. As far as I know, I have nothing more to say regarding this matter, unless there is still something missing in what I said, and others are unclear of anything that I've posted, otherwise I see no reason for further discussion.

Michael, I was going to stay out of this, because I don't need more enemies, but, since you brought me up; You are right, I DO know how you are feeling right now. I agree that **** like this happens all the time, and I'm sure that at least half the guys bitching on here have at some point in time recorded someone else's music, or taped a movie off the tv, or committed some other form of theft. Yes, I put trademarked logos on shift knobs and stuff, and I make a couple of bucks at it, but people are also getting something they want that isn't available elsewhere. Also, I am pretty sure I am not the only one doing it. Some of the Taiwanese stuff that sells for pennies yet carries a trademarked logo, well, I am pretty sure they are not paying to use that logo either. I know it is wrong, but I think every one of us has a little bit of thief in him. People are often after me to skip the taxes on a sale, they want to steal from the government. One of the "valued older members" of this board told me the various ways he imports goods without having to pay the taxes and duties that are required by law! Lord knows how many people cheat on their income tax! I guess what it boils down to is who we are stealing from. I know that shouldn't make a difference, but it does! I think the guys on this board think that if you steal from the DSM Link people, you are stealing from their best friend, and they take offence. If you are stealing from GM or Ford or Mitsubishi for that matter, it is not such a big deal. I don't know these DSM Link guys, so I am not in a position to pass judgement in any way. My overly simplistic way of looking at it...if you are making copies and hurting little guys, that isn't nice. If you bought only one "unsupported" copy yourself, and have only ever sold one as you claim, then I think it is no big deal. You didn't misrepresent the product. Obviously, pirated copies are available, and, as you said, you didn't force anyone to buy or misrepresent the goods in any way. Even after all this commotion, you are still asking for reasonable dialogue. My dealings with you were pleasant. In my books you are still OK. Of course, this will likely make me a lot of other enemies....but I guess it won't be the first (and probably not the last) time that people are pissed off at me!

I think the whole point here Mike is we are suppose to be a Car Club who's members help each other out. You are trying to help out also by selling the product for half the price ( I think ) but these guys the make the product are DSM guys that we should help and not Rip off.

I think this the point the most are trying to say here.

Yeah.. could be. I'm to blame for that. I'll change it back. (Damn, it seemed funny at the time though..)

If the UBB is found to be a vehicle to buy/sell pirated goods, it can be shut down. I don't think you need any more detail than that. Better to be safe than sorry.

Fact is you're directly copying copyrighted software. You're not changing it, you're not altering it in any way, or improving on it. I think that pretty much says it all. You can argue your "Michael Druciarek Ethics System" all you want. Nobody here really wants to hear it.

If you read my "comparing causing physical harm in my world to physical duplication" was not a comparison of that at all. Read it again. I'm arguing that just because something is done over and over, doesn't mean it's now acceptable.

[Edit: Speeling ]

"Mike Jackson: We've met before.. in-fact I was a nice guy and even let you use MY tools to tighten the bolt on your turbo (or DP).

I appreciate that. That's a good example of what makes this site and it's members great.


Imagine that, people letting other's use someone else's creation, unheard of. Maybe I should have charged for that, and have myself be called a tool-pirate with personal gain in-mind."

You lent me a tool for 30 seconds that you purchased. I then gave it back. There is absolutely no relation to that and this. If you had bought the tool, forged an exact duplicate without studying the hows and whys each design detail was for, then sold it to me on the spot for half the price of the real one then you've got a connection. Did you walk away with a profit? Did I walk away with a tool? When you buy something you are allowed to use it as you see fit (you could have charged me to borrow it). You saw fit to let me borrow it for free. Perfectly legal and normal.

I could lend you my CD for a few months, maybe even never ask for it back (or sell it to you), that's my right as the owner. I can not, however, make a copy to give or even worse sell it to you.

Patent/piracy/copyright laws do allow you to study it, reverse engineer it and come up with a "unique" version which is distintcly different then the original and do what you want with it (it is yours). It's up to the courts and the patent office to decide if your version is "unique" (or us in this case).

A direct copy marketed as a direct copy in your own words is a clear violation of the law. This site can be shut down for being the information medium that the transaction occurred over. The providers that host our site have rules about such things as this as well as other rules like no porn content. We have to enforce these rules stictly. I don't care if a handful of our members think they should have rights to anything every written or created... the rest of us want our site to remain online.

Yea, it was pretty funny but I think that it's just a little bit of an abuse of your power and not really conducive to maintaing the mature discussion you guys were having.

Way to take responsibility though Steve, very commendable

Thanks Scotty Williams for noticing, I though it was immature but chose not to comment on it.

... ANYWAYS, if everyone agrees, may I suggest we put this thing to sleep and try to get over it. Please don't try to flame me about how I`m trying to "blow this off" or something, I can continute this conversation just as long, but it becomes rather useless and boring after a certain ammount of time and very un-poductive.

If the mods wish to voice their warning, please do so through a PM, or in public if you must. Otherwise I see no reason to keep carrying this thing on.

Any opinions on this suggestion?

Copyright, copies, enhancement, etc, are all very valid points.

In Ziggy's case, we're taling about a physical replica, that no matter how perfect, isn't the same as the original. In very few cases, was the item being duplicated even an original idea, and so on, and so on, and so on...

But, where he might take $25 in materials, add $75 in labour and overheard, and then sell it for $115, to undercut someone else's $135...

You're taking a direct PERFECT copy of intellectual property, stored in a chip, paying $10 in materials, popping it into your Eprom burner, and selling it for $450.

Does no one clearly see the difference?
No?
Now you know why intellectual property cases drag on for years.

I am fine with dropping it, but I think you owe the DSM community, and DSMLink, a promise that you will flash clean any eproms you have now, and not make any more copies.

Thoughts?

Obviously you do not know what goes into making a DSMLink "setup". If you think anybody can go out and just pop in an EPROM, boy... you are seriously behind in the times. I will not get into what must be done and just how much time and money goes into making this because I`m sure the guys over at DSMLink can tell you that.

And if those guys are making copies of their chips and just selling them for $695usd then I think we should look harder at who is ripping off who.

Notice how I didn't say dsmlink is any sort of inferior product or it is easy to make, or they charge too much. Because I know it is hard work, and don't think I can simply sell any chip to anyone and make it work, whoever makes these propriatery OBD2 connectors put in alot of time and $$ to try and copy them, it's not the chip that matters, it's the connector for your information. I can give away any ammount of DSMLink chip'ed EPROM(s) and it will do you no good.

We have already established that copyright is wrong and we all have opinions on who is right and wrong in this situation. Is there anything else anybody needs answered? I`m trying to keep this as short as possible.

Michael,

Andrew nicely made it very clear at first that FESS UP and it gets ignored. But you deliberately chose to ignore it and stir it in the worst possible manner. There is no real good justification for me copying Windows but I might come up with excuses, again they are not going to justify the action. They merely add some ethicality.

However you so desperately try to justify your action by bringing examples of other people's wrong doings. Let's make this very clear, if everybody kills, killing does NOT get justified.

Again, bringing examples of piracy in all aspects of life is not a justification.

The more you wrote the more you proved that this IS infact a case of piracy. And with more explanations you made it even more unethical in eyes' of your audience.

By the way, for all I know this IS a Criminal Offence and it is in fact a Federal Criminal Offence for that matter. It is Theft of Intellectual property and I think law distinguishes between theft for personal use and/or for profit.

It is given that DSMLink belongs to those guys and all it takes it to prove ONE case of sale.

So you are better off not trying to brag about this or show off your power. You just don't have the upper hand my friend.

Michael, it is not the best technique to argue the closure risk with Steve. Take it as given as I would if a mod would say that. Trying to prove him wrong in a single point was a cheap shot. So was bringing up the lending of a tool and showing yourself owed. I gave my laptop to many on DSM Invasion day , so what? it is over.


All along you didn't made your position stronger regarding the morality of your action which was under question from the beginning. For future reference remember this as VERY bad case of Public Relation crisis handling.

I hope you realize that there is nothing personal and for all I care I have offered my help in the past to all members of this club.


p.s. CopyRIGHT, not copywrite, copyrighted is not a really a verb even though better than copywrited(copywrote?!?!). copy right protected but too long anyways.

I thought you only had one copy to sell, now you are going on about how much you have to go through to sell the connector?

The sad fact is, just from this thread still being around, Mike is probably getting questions and offers to buy a copy.

Amin, why is it that EVERYBODY for some reason seems to think that I`m trying to prove this is an authentic version? Would someone PLEEEASE point out where I stated this is NOT a pirated version, otherwise GIVE UP on that point.

Secondly, I have never used other's peoples crimes as my cover because I have never defended THEM, in-fact you missed my point, I ATTACKED the mods for NOT TAKING action if they "oh-so-strict" regarding this and are scared of loosing this board, yet they allow other copyright'ed material to be sold, from DVDs, to CDs, to other things. Yet I get attacked just because it hits closer to home, which shows they pick on/who they feel is convenient for THEM and not actually what is against the rules. Basically I`m calling them hypocrites.

If it is PIRACY, then DSMLink and myself will sit in the cell together and get alot of time to talk about how we were stupid to copy and/or edit other people's code and re-sell it (without the ownder's permission in either case).