I know some people have e-mailed me about this already. If you wanted to pick one up now is your chance. So called "un-official" and un-supported by dsmlink.com.

But if you can't increase your timing with a slider then maybe this isn't for you:)

You will receive the propriatery OBD2 connector for your car, the DSMLink chip, as well as a serial cable for your laptop to tune. Software is free for download on their website. Thank you.

Can you please define for us what an "un-official and un-supported" DSMLink chip and setup is?

How is it unsupported?

How many do you have?

Thanks...

You're ripping off the people that worked their asses off to create this amazing product. Do you sell CDs of Microsoft and advertise that? I bought my V2 from DSMLink and the guys over there are simply amazing to deal with. I can't believe you'd rip them off like this and to do it out in the open like this.

I've now also received this by email:

"> Michael is also semi well known in the CA.DSM "inner" community for
> the person to go to for the purchase of a DSMLink copy, he was at the
> DSM Invasion in TO in July with a DSMLink "copy" for sale, I know of a
> couple he has sold."

Care to comment Michael?

I don't think the excuses you used HERE are going to work too well.

Especially, considering THIS .

When I was shopping for a used version of DSMLink I was given his contact. I of course never followed up on him because I don't want to support someone who takes someone's hard work, plops it in an EPROM burner and sells it for his gain.

I feel sorry for the guys at DSMLink. They've made an INCREDIBLE product and they can't make the full money they deserve for such a fine product.

...everything I read, shows Michael backing down and claiming he just needs to unload "this one I am stuck with".

Yet, multiple people, over multiple months have reported buying them from him.

Where's the truth Michael?

Fess up, and you might be forgiven.
Fess up not, and we might have to take a walk down dixington...

Ok, Michael hasn't even replied yet, but every 5 mins now, I get another email, sending me to another web page to read his ads selling these things.

No way you ever just owned only one, and "by accident".

Here's the thoght process, ok Michael?
Because this discussion has been had before. It started for DSMs, specifically, when people started copying, and then modifying the ToddsMods chips for the 1G ECU.

History...
Todd Day, did an excellent job of reverse egineering the 1G ECU code, enhancing it, and then selling that functionality upgrade.
Unfortunately, it wasn't enough for him to live off of, and the rest of his life took priority.
He stopped supporting it, and it disappeared.

I have heard many since then argue, that it's ok to copy his, because you can't buy it any more.
While I don't agree with that mentality, I can at least understand it.
People are DESPERATE for the functionality, would pay for it if they could, and are getting it any way they can.


However, this is far from the case, with DSMLink. Thomas and Dave, have gone above the beyond, to develop, sell, and support their product. You can buy it today, online.
It's freely availble.

No excuses.
If you don't like the price tag, don't buy it... but for what it does, it should be $1000 US, with an annual support fee.

Enough!

I agree 100% about the support fee. The information I see in the DSMLink forums is simply outstanding. I'd say 75% of that information comes directly from Thomas and Dave themselves.

For Michael to just sell it for his own personal gain is pretty low.

Ok first of all, you posted like an hour apart and expect me to reply within that time period, I don't spend 24hr/day infront of my computer un-like you.

Secondly I would REALLY recommend for you to re-read your post and really think hard about what you just said regarding "..take a walk down dixington". Can you please elaborate for me? I fail to see the reasoning in your ignorant arrogance and the need to post something like this on a public forum.

What EXACTLY is it that you want to do after you reach the end of my street? Do you expect/hope to meet me there? Are you going to call out my name in hopes that I come out? Perhaps you want "kick my ass" for some reason? If so, then why would you let me know in advance that you're "..walking down dixington." Why not just simply come and get across whatever it is you're trying to because obviously on-line forums are not good enough to resolve disputes and you must take higher measures to solve your problems.

Thirdly, I really do not know where or who you're getting these e-mails from and obviously I don't care, but for what it's worth, I've had my DSM for about 6months in total, and have sold ONE dsmlink package and NOT MORE, wether you believe me or not is irrelevant, i`m posting this information for reference purposes.

I DO NOT make the chip, cable, connector or any part of this setup.. in-fact, it's not even made in Canada at all, and I have personally NEVER EVER had any personal contact with the person who is responsible for reverse-engineering this product.

And also, if you you're so good at searching for previous posts, why don't you go after the person who bought this? I don't see flame-wars happening with anybody e-mailed me about wanting to buy one, it looks like it's not the people willing to spend $$ that are fueling this "rip-off" but infact the people who make the plastic connectors, really, stop kidding yourself.

I have NOT been selling this for "months" and i have NOT sold "multiple" copies. One in total and NOT more.

NOW, if you still feel the need to show off your incredible i-net skills and post more of my information and take it upon yourself to feel free to distribute private personal information, then that is your choice, but atleast live up to it and don't be arrogant about it. I`m willing to have an education discussion about this but only on fair terms. Otherwise, please live up to your offer and come for a "..walk down dixington".

p.s.: For what it's worth, I know there are alot of people on this forum who I have dealth with (non-dsmlink related) that can vouche that I`m an "all-right" guy and mean no direct harm. I invite you NOT to buy what I offered if you believe it is un-ethical, otherwise, let's please grow up and have a discussion about this if you should choose to do so.

Thank You.

Our incredible i-net skills are actually www.411.ca See how many Druciarek's there are in Canada. :rolleyes: Personal information. Yep so personal anyone with a keyboard and an internet connection can dig it up.

So.. I have yet to see where in the above post you say you are NOT attempting to sell pirated software on our UBB.

I don't care WHO makes it. This is NOT a case of you getting "scammed" from the DSMTrader as you claimed on the BC DSM UBB.

So, tell us, Michael: Where do the lies stop, and the truth begin? All I see here is someone selling pirated software that can be obtained legally. Can you show me that it is something different? Whether *I* think this is ethical, or not, doesn't matter.

Amen Steve.

And Michael, the only reason to mention "dixington" was simply to confirm that was your home address.
Thank you for confirming that.

I guess none of you guys that are so outraged have ever used any illegally copied software/music (it being ms windows or downloading music/movies through kaaza or whatever). Because that is basically the same thing...and if you have than it makes you a hypocrite.

I am not trying to condone what's being done, but let's get real here, it happens everywhere all the time and noone gives a ****.

Hey Mike,
I'm not one for knowing the legality issues but what you are doing seems illegal to me. Pirating copywrited software is a crime. Before anything gets out of hand with authorities, I suggest you stop selling these products and hope for the best. I know the people here at DSM Canada are great people. I've bought a few things from Steve before and he's a great guy. I'm sure everyone will let this go without warning anyone with power off the net.

We're outraged because things like this can SHUT DOWN this UBB.

[EDit: Since you brought it up: I can honestly say that I HAVE NOT, nor WILL I EVER sell pirated software. Of ANY kind. You'll find that anyone using this UBB as a means to distribute ANY form of pirated goods is met with the same responses that Michael is getting from us.]

I don't understand your logic that if it's done enough, it must be alright. If I whack enough people on the head with a big stick, is it eventually going to be "OK"? I don't think so.

Wouldn't you appreciate it if someone stopped me from whacking you on the head with a big stick? Thought so. Thomas/Dave also appreciate anyone stopping the piracy of their software, I'm sure.

Jakub: "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."

I am very familiar with what you speak of. I'm in the damn IT industry.

We act, where we can do some good.

This is not some nameless, faceless movie studio that makes billions in PROFIT from the box office. Or some (again) nameless, faceless software giant that couldn't care less about you, or that copy of Excel you run secretly to track your timeslips.

These are two real guys, who would answer the phone at 10pm at night, and help you, if you needed it. These are two guys who know their sh!t, and are willing the share, for a very reasonable price.

No one gives a sh!t?
Bull.
I do.
That's why the replies.

"I am not trying to condone what's being done, but let's get real here, it happens everywhere all the time and noone gives a ****."

The people that will come and shut this site down will care. Then we all will care.

Don't try and muddy the situation with your own personal rebelion against the system. This is wrong. It is putting our site at risk. It won't be tolerated. We don't care what everyone else is doing through psuedo protected mediums... we care about the existance of this site.

You guys obviously missed my point...
A theft is a theft; it does not matter if you steal candy from baby or illegally copy software that you have not purchased.
I am looking at this situation from a bystander perspective.
You can't punish someone that stole from a big corporations less than someone that stole from a homeless guy. It may seem not fair, but nonetheless that's the fact.
I understand that this is a gross display of balant piracy. I for one buy all my software, because I understand that if piracy keeps up, we'll end up with no games/software or the registration process will become a severe pain in the ass.
All I am getting at is, it is not fair for someone that copies games/movies whatever to come in here bash this guy because he's copying DSM software that you know someone has worked very hard for.
I am being objective, devil's advocate, call it what you want.
Mike,
It seems like you hold a personal grudge against me for some reason. I don't know why and quite frankly I don't care.
I am though in title to state my opinion, weather you like it or not.
No one raised the point of the board being in danger of shutting down before I made my post. If that were the case, why don't you ban Michael and delete his post.

You're devil's advocate is ignoring the fact that this pirated software is not being used for personal use. It is being SOLD for personal gain.

VERY different.

Ok first of all, you should now delete your post or ban yourself since you've violated rule #2 of "Buy & sell" section according to:

2:It is a needless reply, Great it's a nice car, or a good price, if you are not going to buy it or place an offer, don't reply.

Secondly, you say I fail to prove that this is not a pirated version. How about you help me and show me where I state that this is NOT a pirated version, was it advertised as such? I must have trouble reading my own posts, so I would be greatfull if you could point that out.

As for "when do the lies stop", again you state something totally random that I cannot answer because I yet again fail to see during which point of my original post I've lied.

I HAVE stated this is not the official version
I HAVE stated you cannot upgrade to V2.
I HAVE stated what you receive in the package
I HAVE stated the price.

Have I missed some rule here of posting? If so, I will edit my post to you liking, but so far I've been willing to answer any and all concerns and questions anybody has had, so I fail to see how I refuse to "co-operate" if you will.

And to Andrew Bienhaus, you thank me for "confirming"? Ofcourse I will confirm, where you not sure weather it was the right address, and didn't know which one to pick from the total of 1 druciarek's displayed? I`m happy to help you on your journey to personal fullfilment of finding out people's addresses. Now are you still going to visit me or was it just a useless display kindergarden horse-play?.

To Jakub Kowalczyk, one person who seems to have some morals, although he openly stated he dis-agrees with what I`m doing, he also admitted he's done and seen others do similiar things, which I think is the most open and thruthfull reply so far. Thanks for the reply and your honest opinion.

Never mind, I am done here...

No, you've missed some rule of the criminal code. It is ILLEGAL to sell pirated software. The rules of this UBB don't supercede the law.

As far as my posts being useless, they were an attempt to CONFIRM that you were, in fact, attempting to sell pirated software. Since there is no question of that now obviously, you are not welcome here.

In regards to "Kindergarten" games to confirm your address: We wanted to make SURE it was yours. Imagine what would happen if we were to give the WRONG address to Thomas, and Dave? I shudder to think what might become of THAT.

You are going to try and use the UBB rules against the owner of this board protecting his right to run this board. Sell your illegal goods elsewhere.

And if you can't figure out why your address was verified, it's because it was likely looked up in the DSMLink buyers list. I know I was talking to Dave about this and he was already aware about it.

"Mike,
It seems like you hold a personal grudge against me for some reason. I don't know why and quite frankly I don't care.
I am though in title to state my opinion, weather you like it or not."

No grudge at all . Not to be rude but I can't put a face to your name or recall any other discussion we have had offhand. If we have argued it is because we have differnt opinions on the particular subject not because of some grudge. I too am aloud to voice my opinion.

My post was written in a matter of fact without emotion form. If it reads differently I'm sorry. If I was blunt it was just to avoid this thread from turning into a global disscussion on piracy.

You make one valid point Michael... this post doesn't belong in here any more.

it should be in the bad-guy section.

Thanks for the heads up.

You guys make valid points, however, I think adding "I Profit From the Work of Others" to his posts is a bit immature (even though it's probably true).

Scotty

Steve Kinnaird: Can you further illustrtate on how this can get the board "shut down"? I would like detail if possible.

And also explain how you can compare inside the same statement how causing physical harm in your world is compared to item duplication.

And again, you say "pirated" software is being sold for personal gain. Where did dsmlink get mitsu's code in the first place. The COPIED, then proceeded to MODIFY propritery code, and then MARKET AND SELL someone's creation FOR PROFIT. What is wrong with the hypocrisism in your post?

HOW IN THE WORLD does modifying code make it "OK" for someone to claim it as their own and sell it?! Am I really the only one who sees the paradox in this?!

And confirming my address, yea, actually I CANNOT imagine what would happen should you give them the wrong address, perhaps my b-day card would have never made it to my house. And why didn't they just ask for my address? They going to send me $$ in the mail? Perhaps a post-card? How nice of them.

Noah Wiles: What was I thinking, OFCOURSE it's ok for bush to drop a nuke on the US, after all it's HIS country, he can do whatever he wants, and bend the rules so they nicely suit him in just whatever he wants to do. Ohhh no wait, that's already happening here.

And what would my address be doing in the DSMLink user registry? I never purchased dsmlink from them.

Mike Jackson: We've met before.. in-fact I was a nice guy and even let you use MY tools to tighten the bolt on your turbo (or DP). Imagine that, people letting other's use someone else's creation, unheard of. Maybe I should have charged for that, and have myself be called a tool-pirate with personal gain in-mind.
----------------------------------------------

As all of you remember some time-ago, our friend Ziggy Dietrich also got flamed and reamed for making duplicated products of others' design. I`m sure he knows what i`m going through at this point.

If you look a few posts below me, a person is selling "used DVD's", I doubt he's received threats of "walking down" his street, or his personal address publicly listed.

Another person was selling pirated software, OEM version of XP, also made by microsoft and sold in order to make profit.

People are selling HKS re-grinds, guess what! they're HKS's idea and someone copied it, BUT NOBODY cares for some reason.

In my opinion, if the MODs would have played it smarter, they would have simply sent me a PM telling to remove my post and abstain from posting such material otherwise i will be banned.

Guess what, maybe I would have listened? But they chose to STICKY the post, and make a BIG DEAL out of this, making it even WORSE for dsmlink to get rid of these things.

Michael you are wrong you got caught a judgement has been made. You rolled the diced and lost now move along cause there is nothing to see here.

I make one post. Then half the board decides what I`m doing is wrong and bombards me with accusations and questions, get threatened that if I don't "fess up" I will be banned, then I try and answer everything I can and get told to shut up cuz it's over. I was not the one who wanted this to go this far and out of proportion.

This is has already gone further than it should have. Everything that was ment to be said was said, and I think everyone should forget about this and be able to sleep at night. As far as I know, I have nothing more to say regarding this matter, unless there is still something missing in what I said, and others are unclear of anything that I've posted, otherwise I see no reason for further discussion.

Michael, I was going to stay out of this, because I don't need more enemies, but, since you brought me up; You are right, I DO know how you are feeling right now. I agree that **** like this happens all the time, and I'm sure that at least half the guys bitching on here have at some point in time recorded someone else's music, or taped a movie off the tv, or committed some other form of theft. Yes, I put trademarked logos on shift knobs and stuff, and I make a couple of bucks at it, but people are also getting something they want that isn't available elsewhere. Also, I am pretty sure I am not the only one doing it. Some of the Taiwanese stuff that sells for pennies yet carries a trademarked logo, well, I am pretty sure they are not paying to use that logo either. I know it is wrong, but I think every one of us has a little bit of thief in him. People are often after me to skip the taxes on a sale, they want to steal from the government. One of the "valued older members" of this board told me the various ways he imports goods without having to pay the taxes and duties that are required by law! Lord knows how many people cheat on their income tax! I guess what it boils down to is who we are stealing from. I know that shouldn't make a difference, but it does! I think the guys on this board think that if you steal from the DSM Link people, you are stealing from their best friend, and they take offence. If you are stealing from GM or Ford or Mitsubishi for that matter, it is not such a big deal. I don't know these DSM Link guys, so I am not in a position to pass judgement in any way. My overly simplistic way of looking at it...if you are making copies and hurting little guys, that isn't nice. If you bought only one "unsupported" copy yourself, and have only ever sold one as you claim, then I think it is no big deal. You didn't misrepresent the product. Obviously, pirated copies are available, and, as you said, you didn't force anyone to buy or misrepresent the goods in any way. Even after all this commotion, you are still asking for reasonable dialogue. My dealings with you were pleasant. In my books you are still OK. Of course, this will likely make me a lot of other enemies....but I guess it won't be the first (and probably not the last) time that people are pissed off at me!

I think the whole point here Mike is we are suppose to be a Car Club who's members help each other out. You are trying to help out also by selling the product for half the price ( I think ) but these guys the make the product are DSM guys that we should help and not Rip off.

I think this the point the most are trying to say here.

Yeah.. could be. I'm to blame for that. I'll change it back. (Damn, it seemed funny at the time though..)

If the UBB is found to be a vehicle to buy/sell pirated goods, it can be shut down. I don't think you need any more detail than that. Better to be safe than sorry.

Fact is you're directly copying copyrighted software. You're not changing it, you're not altering it in any way, or improving on it. I think that pretty much says it all. You can argue your "Michael Druciarek Ethics System" all you want. Nobody here really wants to hear it.

If you read my "comparing causing physical harm in my world to physical duplication" was not a comparison of that at all. Read it again. I'm arguing that just because something is done over and over, doesn't mean it's now acceptable.

[Edit: Speeling ]

"Mike Jackson: We've met before.. in-fact I was a nice guy and even let you use MY tools to tighten the bolt on your turbo (or DP).

I appreciate that. That's a good example of what makes this site and it's members great.


Imagine that, people letting other's use someone else's creation, unheard of. Maybe I should have charged for that, and have myself be called a tool-pirate with personal gain in-mind."

You lent me a tool for 30 seconds that you purchased. I then gave it back. There is absolutely no relation to that and this. If you had bought the tool, forged an exact duplicate without studying the hows and whys each design detail was for, then sold it to me on the spot for half the price of the real one then you've got a connection. Did you walk away with a profit? Did I walk away with a tool? When you buy something you are allowed to use it as you see fit (you could have charged me to borrow it). You saw fit to let me borrow it for free. Perfectly legal and normal.

I could lend you my CD for a few months, maybe even never ask for it back (or sell it to you), that's my right as the owner. I can not, however, make a copy to give or even worse sell it to you.

Patent/piracy/copyright laws do allow you to study it, reverse engineer it and come up with a "unique" version which is distintcly different then the original and do what you want with it (it is yours). It's up to the courts and the patent office to decide if your version is "unique" (or us in this case).

A direct copy marketed as a direct copy in your own words is a clear violation of the law. This site can be shut down for being the information medium that the transaction occurred over. The providers that host our site have rules about such things as this as well as other rules like no porn content. We have to enforce these rules stictly. I don't care if a handful of our members think they should have rights to anything every written or created... the rest of us want our site to remain online.

Yea, it was pretty funny but I think that it's just a little bit of an abuse of your power and not really conducive to maintaing the mature discussion you guys were having.

Way to take responsibility though Steve, very commendable

Thanks Scotty Williams for noticing, I though it was immature but chose not to comment on it.

... ANYWAYS, if everyone agrees, may I suggest we put this thing to sleep and try to get over it. Please don't try to flame me about how I`m trying to "blow this off" or something, I can continute this conversation just as long, but it becomes rather useless and boring after a certain ammount of time and very un-poductive.

If the mods wish to voice their warning, please do so through a PM, or in public if you must. Otherwise I see no reason to keep carrying this thing on.

Any opinions on this suggestion?

Copyright, copies, enhancement, etc, are all very valid points.

In Ziggy's case, we're taling about a physical replica, that no matter how perfect, isn't the same as the original. In very few cases, was the item being duplicated even an original idea, and so on, and so on, and so on...

But, where he might take $25 in materials, add $75 in labour and overheard, and then sell it for $115, to undercut someone else's $135...

You're taking a direct PERFECT copy of intellectual property, stored in a chip, paying $10 in materials, popping it into your Eprom burner, and selling it for $450.

Does no one clearly see the difference?
No?
Now you know why intellectual property cases drag on for years.

I am fine with dropping it, but I think you owe the DSM community, and DSMLink, a promise that you will flash clean any eproms you have now, and not make any more copies.

Thoughts?

Obviously you do not know what goes into making a DSMLink "setup". If you think anybody can go out and just pop in an EPROM, boy... you are seriously behind in the times. I will not get into what must be done and just how much time and money goes into making this because I`m sure the guys over at DSMLink can tell you that.

And if those guys are making copies of their chips and just selling them for $695usd then I think we should look harder at who is ripping off who.

Notice how I didn't say dsmlink is any sort of inferior product or it is easy to make, or they charge too much. Because I know it is hard work, and don't think I can simply sell any chip to anyone and make it work, whoever makes these propriatery OBD2 connectors put in alot of time and $$ to try and copy them, it's not the chip that matters, it's the connector for your information. I can give away any ammount of DSMLink chip'ed EPROM(s) and it will do you no good.

We have already established that copyright is wrong and we all have opinions on who is right and wrong in this situation. Is there anything else anybody needs answered? I`m trying to keep this as short as possible.

Michael,

Andrew nicely made it very clear at first that FESS UP and it gets ignored. But you deliberately chose to ignore it and stir it in the worst possible manner. There is no real good justification for me copying Windows but I might come up with excuses, again they are not going to justify the action. They merely add some ethicality.

However you so desperately try to justify your action by bringing examples of other people's wrong doings. Let's make this very clear, if everybody kills, killing does NOT get justified.

Again, bringing examples of piracy in all aspects of life is not a justification.

The more you wrote the more you proved that this IS infact a case of piracy. And with more explanations you made it even more unethical in eyes' of your audience.

By the way, for all I know this IS a Criminal Offence and it is in fact a Federal Criminal Offence for that matter. It is Theft of Intellectual property and I think law distinguishes between theft for personal use and/or for profit.

It is given that DSMLink belongs to those guys and all it takes it to prove ONE case of sale.

So you are better off not trying to brag about this or show off your power. You just don't have the upper hand my friend.

Michael, it is not the best technique to argue the closure risk with Steve. Take it as given as I would if a mod would say that. Trying to prove him wrong in a single point was a cheap shot. So was bringing up the lending of a tool and showing yourself owed. I gave my laptop to many on DSM Invasion day , so what? it is over.


All along you didn't made your position stronger regarding the morality of your action which was under question from the beginning. For future reference remember this as VERY bad case of Public Relation crisis handling.

I hope you realize that there is nothing personal and for all I care I have offered my help in the past to all members of this club.


p.s. CopyRIGHT, not copywrite, copyrighted is not a really a verb even though better than copywrited(copywrote?!?!). copy right protected but too long anyways.

I thought you only had one copy to sell, now you are going on about how much you have to go through to sell the connector?

The sad fact is, just from this thread still being around, Mike is probably getting questions and offers to buy a copy.

Amin, why is it that EVERYBODY for some reason seems to think that I`m trying to prove this is an authentic version? Would someone PLEEEASE point out where I stated this is NOT a pirated version, otherwise GIVE UP on that point.

Secondly, I have never used other's peoples crimes as my cover because I have never defended THEM, in-fact you missed my point, I ATTACKED the mods for NOT TAKING action if they "oh-so-strict" regarding this and are scared of loosing this board, yet they allow other copyright'ed material to be sold, from DVDs, to CDs, to other things. Yet I get attacked just because it hits closer to home, which shows they pick on/who they feel is convenient for THEM and not actually what is against the rules. Basically I`m calling them hypocrites.

If it is PIRACY, then DSMLink and myself will sit in the cell together and get alot of time to talk about how we were stupid to copy and/or edit other people's code and re-sell it (without the ownder's permission in either case).

If you can show us any examples of this they will be dealt with.

I assure you, if there are examples out there it is because we overlooked them. Much like your first (successful) attempt at selling copies of DSMLink.

I don't think anyone is asking you to prove the DSMLinks you have are legit. You stated long ago that they are not.

Bah. I'll let Thomas/Dave do what they want with you now.

I just read this post and wow.

I am not trying to start an arguemant, or continue this one.

How many times have you seen in different spots HKS style, Greddy style, Blitz style, etc products for sale? Is this wrong? Maybe, maybe not.

Michael was upfront and said it was an unofficial and unsupported item. Very clear description of the item. I feel if direct copies are being made and sold for profit, that is not right. Personally, for a small company, like DSMLink, I would rather pay full price and support the "little guy." The $600 or whatever the price is goes to them directly. Would they miss one purchase, probably not. If there were 100 people like me, I am sure $60,000 would be a difference to them. The time and effort put into this product is amazing. Kudos to them.

On a larger scale, would HKS care if I didn't buy their product, hell no. What if 100,000 people decided to buy the HKS style muffler, filter, cams, etc. I think they'd notice.

Just my $0.02

Buddy, that is the whole FREAKING PROBLEM. why don't you get it? And you think you are in the power play by DOING the illegal thing man!!!! I feel sorry that I need to tell you that doing the illegal thing IS illegal. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

let me go over this once more, you shoudl NOT be so proud of your immoral and illegal action. That is simple to me, I don't know about you?!


If you have failed to see the OBVIOUS moral, legal and technical differences then you should see a doctor soon. I am not being sarcastic, the difference are too grave for me to point out.

If I make a game for XBox and sell it, it is QUITE different than manufacturing cheap Xbox machines and selling them.


Stop the nonsense and don't give me Capital letter indications that you were PIRATING the damn thing.

Again, I have to agree with Michael on the "selective enforcement" issue. How many times have I seen stuff for sale "brand new, in the box, no taxes" and often by the same people. You can't tell me those transactions are all legit and above board. Also, this site links to information like how to (illegally) avoid paying duty. Like Noah said, whether this is a sad fact or not, this is probably good for Michael's "business", if he is in fact running a business selling this stuff. If this is such a crime, there should be no market for it. If it is so offensive, no-one should be willing to buy it. Fact of the matter is, as long as there is a market, SOMEONE is going to supply it! I still think he never misrepresented the product, and never forced anyone to buy, or even to read his post. If this is going to be so strictly enforced, then maybe the mods should be questioning the origin of everything that is sold on this board to make sure it is legit? Maybe they should also not be directing people to search sites that counsel them on how to break the laws. Again, I think offence is being taken not because of an alleged "rip off", but because of WHO is allegedly being "ripped off".

You guys go through to much drama, you people need a damn life... :rolleyes:

What Ziggy pointed out is a valid point in my eyes. I must say I`m kinda sorry for bringing him into this, because after doing a bit of thinking, it became quite clear that what Ziggy was doing and selling cannot be entirely compared to my item, so I`m sorry if I have 'caused any troubles.

Amin: Ok you have shown me no proof this is illegal, and unless you show me documentation anything from this point that you say to me will be ignored.

Jonny & Ziggy: I`m glad i`m not the only one that sees the "soap-opera" in this. I`m sorry guys, the choice is quite clear, you don't like it? Don't talk about it and don't buy it, and do not promote it. There is a simple solution to stop the killing in our country, STOP MAKING KNIVES. Right? Wrong.. some things cannot be solved very easily, and neither can this, so let's please move on with out lives and not loose TOO much sleep over this.

At first I hoped you wouldn't find yourself in legal trouble over this, but you obviously are bringing it on yourself and spitting in the faces of Thomas and Dave. Let's see if the proof comes to you in a form of a legal matter from the boys at DSMLink. That'll be your proof.

Noah Wiles: Ok, and how long am I to wait for this "letter" can you give me a time-estimate? Because it looks rather foolish on you to promise/suggest something that you cannot backup with any sort of facts. So I would suggest you keep myths and "assumptions" aside untill you have something solid to come to me with.

If you have a legit reason and proof for me then I`m all ears and are open to a normal discussion regarding "legal" side of this, otherwise do not post un-founded accusations and personal beliefs what "should be" in retrospect to "what is".

I never said it was coming, I just simply stated that it's a possibility. And for the record, I hoped it wouldn't come to this, but you seem to be challenging it and wanting it.

One more thing I forgot to add, is that I did speak by e-mail to Thomas regarding this issue. And as obvious as it may be that he does aprove on my actions, I must say I have great respect for the guy and value the kind of profesionallism he used to get his point across.

Most of the people here have acted like a pack of wolfes and caused a riot to bash one person in hopes of getting somebody to stop something. NOT EVEN once have I received an e-mail from any of the MODs here telling me to stop selling this and that my actions will not be tolerated, instead, they chose to lead a battle of un-informed people after me in hopes of making themselves look even more powerull.

And back to Thomas, I must say he and whoever he works with must have put a really great deal of effort and work into making such a great product as DSMLink. I hope that there are others un-like me and who pay full-price for the full-product and I wish them nothing but luck with their new V2 and perhaps any new upcoming versions in the future. But I have chosen this path to take and must unfortunately defent my position.

Mike, please help me unterstand. You think they do great things at DSMLink, but you are saying that you are going to continue to sell a product they created? Can you please clarify?

1.I dont need to show or proof anything here. I am not going to loose OR gain in this matter. why the hell would I bother to show you that your action is illegal. For all I care... I don't care
2.You ignore me, OH BOY, such a threat. My life depends on the fact that you believe me in that this crap is illegal!
3.This rather "will ignore" just proved that you lacked any kind of counter-arguement.
4.You need a proof that copying some one else's work IS illegal? Oh man, you are not the sharpest tool in the tool box! :rolleyes:
I was stating the obvious and I am NOT the crown that you are trying to prove me wrong.

I can't believe that somebody needs proof from me that copying someone else's work is illegal.


Dear Michael,
This "Thomas emailed me that I am OK" was a right turn in this story but was too late. If this was your arguement you could have presented it in the first post. Nice try though.


Ignore me for all I care
Know your enemy better next time. I am not one son, you are not worth it.

Noah: Unfortunately I cannot clarify. I do not see how anybody could take something that they would not hold "valuable" or "great". If you're going to rob a bank, is it because you have nothing better to do, or is it because it holds a sort of "value" to you? I don't see alot of people stealing candy-wrappers out of garbage bins, because it is not "valuable" to them.

Call it stealing, pirating, whatever word you use for this, and regardless of my actions, I hold DSMLink to be a valuable tool and one that deserves it's praise and the praise that it has so-far received from people all from around the continent.

Amin: To answer and "counter-argument" some of your points in your post..

1. Great point, I should not have to prove this "DSMLink" is not authentic and because I really have NOTHING to loose, For all I care.. I don't care. (meaning I can rip anyone off and be a total asshole about it)

2. .. nothing to say regarding this point

3. I simply wanted a way to end this endless argument that everyone is having. But so be it your choice to continue.. here we go again.

4. No I did not ask for a "generalization" of this partricular law. Everyone knows copying "stuff" is illegal. I wanted some more detailed context and how this applies to me and how it compares to what DSMLink has done.

I am not as stupid as you may think, and yes I do know copying, pirating, duplicating, etc.. etc.. is frowned upon and illegal so no, I do not need that clarified.

And as for the "Thomas" issue, I think we can both agree on one thing, that this has gone too far for me to try and find a "slip-whole" through which I can quickly escape and come out clean and without a scratch. This unfortunately will not happen and I will not look for any excuse to get me out of this. I have chosen to do something and I will remain this way, I have not used Thomas as any sort of "try" to get me out of trouble, it was nothing more than a personal opinion of him, and nothing more.

"And if those guys are making copies of their chips and just selling them for $695usd then I think we should look harder at who is ripping off who."

Those guys spent years developing a kick ass product and spend lots of time every day supporting it. Thats why they can charge
$695usd, and in my opinion they earn every penny of it.

I`m all behind you..

The quote I wrote was directed at the person who assumed I copy a million a chips and sell them for this price, which is not the truth, and something that DSMLink is not doing either, alot of work went into the connector which is really what makes DSMLink unique (aside from the coding itself ofcourse). They deserve every dollar they can make out of this product. And anybody who wants to order from them, I will not discourage anyone from doing so, and I think they deserve it and encourage it as I`m sure the support and future upgrades will eventually pay off.

Ok here goes I thought my original post pretty much covered it. What companies pay me to do is cut through all the crap, find the problem, devise a solution, manage the implementation then review results. You will get steps 1,2 and 3 for free.

Andrew and Steve hit the real problem on the head with their first posts and pretty much all the rest of the stuff that follows those posts are filler and smoke n mirrors.

Background:

Michael presents a DSMlink, which I will simply call the "Product", for sale.

The product is posted in "Wanted to Sell" a forum for the private sale of goods. Given that there may be some legal implications with the sale of the Product Andrew asks for clarification. Based on the forum used on CA.DSM and the BC DSM post it would lead a buyer to believe the Product is the only one the Seller has and he obtained it in error.
The Seller indicates that he doesnt manufacture the product:

THE PROBLEM:

The Product is actually plural as there are at least two Products. So this is potentially a business and should be posted in commercial advertisements. The Seller is misrepresenting himself. The seller is either a reseller/distributor or a manufacturer making a profit from the product. Based on that fact alone the board adminstrators and members may have an issue with the Sellers credibilty. The issue of the legality of the Product is secondary.

My recommendation to the Seller of the Product is simply not to post on a public board or at least to post in the right forum and omit information rather than fabricate it. "I bring this Product in from the States and it costs this much and is similiar in function to this"

Misrepresentation and liability are concerns for the board while legality is the concern of the courts.

"And back to Thomas, I must say he and whoever he works with must have put a really great deal of effort and work into making such a great product as DSMLink. I hope that there are others un-like me and who pay full-price for the full-product and I wish them nothing but luck with their new V2 and perhaps any new upcoming versions in the future. But I have chosen this path to take and must unfortunately defent my position. "

Michael think about this. Why would anyone in the future invest in the next DSMlink type of thing? I mean they put in countless hours of research, trial, error, blood sweat and tears and as soon as it hits the market people just copy the code and resell it for half the price. The next time someone has a great idea that could help us out why the would they put the effort in?

Oh, geezus, where to begin? Like I need another freaking soap opera to deal with. Look, Michael, here's the core problem, IMO. Getting screwed over by purchasing a counterfeit copy from someone, once, and then trying to offload the product is one thing. Technically not legal, but let's not get mired down in those details as that's not what appears to be going on here.

You've told me multiple times in e-mail that you've only sold ONE copy EVER and that was IT. I assumed at the time that you were referring to this copy being presented here in this thread. But then I find references to prior sales like this one:

Prior sale

And I get an e-mail from someone saying you're the "go to" guy for counterfeit stuff. So I start scratching my head a little. Then another e-mail comes in with the same implication. And another. Then the admins of this board tell me they received similar e-mails.

So now I have to think you're lying to me again. Have you sold one, once, in the past and are now trying to sell a second right in front of us? Dude, that would be so sleezy I don't even know where to begin. Or, did you really just buy one copy one time and are trying to offload it like you told me in e-mail? If so, then how can you explain the prior sale in October of last year?

I was going to write a bunch more, but I think I'll hold off. The reason being that if I embed too many questions in the post, then all the important ones will get ignored. So let me summarize the one major question in this post and we'll pick up from there once we have an answer.

- Do you intend to sell more than one counterfeit copy of DSMLink?

Thomas Dorris

Okay, I'd said I was going to avoid this with a ten foot pole, but here we go...

If the admins would like an example of 'selective enforcement of IP rules or otherwise illegal sales, I'd provide the following for your opinions on why they still stand as business as usual.

HKS 're grinds'. Blatant rip-off's of HKS's hard work. There are hundreds of sets out there, someone just tossed an HKS original specs into a CNC Lathe and they're now punched out more than originals are purchased. Exact duplicates down to the degree. Ones cut from blanks, ones re-ground from old cams which were spatter welded, and ones cut to a small base circle (which are still illegal if your copying HKS's specs). This board not only allows discussion and sales of these, but allows group buys. IP rip-off, without repercussion it seems.

Mitsu repair manuals are traded and copied on a regular basis.

I dug around and found a copy of Windows XP OEM for sale, not available over the counter (illegal to sell by itself), illegal to remove from the PC it was bundled with, and is never for re-sale. No warnings, and it's a 10k fine folks...

Radar Detectors? If your going to stomp out illegal sales, that might be a good place to start. I see one very recently, and seem to recall a group purchase.

Previously viewed DVD's, while (to me) there's little moral implications, they're still *way* into the grey if not black to sell, and to advertise them on a board?

There have been several discussions which bring up Kazaa, which rips off more IP in a day then I'll do in a lifetime

I have no opinion on Mikes particular matter right or wrong, and ZERO desire to debate it, please don't take this as anything other than a good loud fence sitter.

But if your going to try to nail him on a basis OTHER than "DSM link is our friend, don't copy them" your going to need to reach all over this board, or call a duck a duck and say you don't like it because in your opinion DSMLink is above the board 'law'of allowing this type of sale normally so to speak. So far only individuals like Mike or Ziggy have been picked out and nailed for what's a debatable topic at best, and done in many other worse ways and times without discussion on this board at worst.


And for those of you who start trying to split hairs, as if company size dictates your morals, tell me, just how much money do you need to make before you've got 'too much and need some stolen from you'? Is there a financial line, or size of your building before IP laws cease to apply?

Do you think it's a bigger problem for HKS that hundreds and hundreds of sets of 600$ cams are being copied, to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars, on boards JUST LIKE THIS, or if the nice guys down the street from a version of a product they no longer sell, potentially could lose a sale. It's the exact same thing. In fact, I'll bet it's cost several jobs at HKS with the money they've lost, and easily effect their decisions to continue producing parts for a particular car, which they know the owners to be unscrupulous and just copy as fast as they can.

We won't even get into the millions MS looses. Just how many 'nice guys who pick up the phone at 10pm' could that money have hired over at MS? I have friends who work there, and work hard, who deserve that money just as much as any one else, they're people with families too, who's jobs are at risk when someone 'copies that floppy' (for those of you old enough to remember the ad)

The mods/owners are welcome to call this anything they like, run this however they like, ban, delete topics, whatever they like, it's their board! Just don't try and justify it to the members with an "it's immoral" stamp, while a dozen other items sit outstanding as we speak.


Paul

If your going to call the Kettle black, you'd better make *damned* sure your not a pot.

Edit: Arrgh, too many topics, X-box mod chips, PS/2 Mod chips are advertised as well. To me, copying software is the exact same moral boat as copying DSMLink chips. Someone's work is getting copied in any event, but only one of them is picked apart.

Many of the points you have raised are under discussion presently by the mods. Some have more merrit then others, don't expect this to be the last time we clamp down of copies.

To the loud fence sitter, who is dragging us off topic, here's a summary of your concern:

"HKS 're grinds'. Blatant rip-off's of HKS's hard work..."

No, they're not.
They're cheap cams, made from possibly inferior materials, etc, simply ground to commonly known specs that people like for their engines.
You get what you pay for.

"Mitsu repair manuals are traded and copied on a regular basis."

I bought and paid for mine, both the electronic, and the original paper one from Chrysler. I don't know about you.
We wouldn't permit the sale of illegitimate versions on here.

"I dug around and found a copy of Windows XP OEM for sale, not available over the counter (illegal to sell by itself), illegal to remove from the PC it was bundled with, and is never for re-sale. No warnings, and it's a 10k fine folks..."

Where?

"Radar Detectors? If your going to stomp out illegal sales, that might be a good place to start. I see one very recently, and seem to recall a group purchase."

These are NOT illegal.
They are illegal to use in Ontario.
They are legal in other provinces, and in fact, BelTronics International head office, is in Mississauga.

"Previously viewed DVD's, while (to me) there's little moral implications, they're still *way* into the grey if not black to sell, and to advertise them on a board?"

Huh? Used DVDs? How are they illegal?
My local video store sells them, retail.

"There have been several discussions which bring up Kazaa, which rips off more IP in a day then I'll do in a lifetime"

Discussions about Kazaa?
Is that like saying we can't use the word -gulp- "murder"?


----------

No more off topic, we're almost done. Let's leave this alone now, and let Thomas get an answer from Michael, once and for all... ok?

Please?

Then might I politely suggest you start a new thread on the topic you do have an opinion on? This one has a very specific subject. There have already been far too many divergences from that topic to make any sense of what's going on anymore. This is how threads get all muddied up and mired down in arguments about too many things to ever solve any one of them. I'd rather like to focus on the topic at hand, which is the sale of "DSMLink V1" by someone that doesn't appear to own a legitimate copy.

Thomas Dorris

Michael,
Two Questions.
You state that this is one copy, one that you got stuck with buying off the other DSM boards, why didn't you go back to the guy you bought it off.
And if this is the one copy you have, how do you explain that a quick search of THIS UBB indicates you have already sold a copy of DSMLink?

I have already sold one copy, if anyone on here can show me how they think I've sold MORE or MULTIPLE copies than show me proof, don't simply tell me you've recevied e-mails, ,because i have NOT sold multiple copies.

Secondly, I`m talking to Thomas Dorris right now and have no desire to continute this child-ish "gladiator" debate on here so I will finish conversation with him and nobody else, you have had your chance to have a normal discussion but instead chose to call me a thief, a law-breaker, immoral and un-ethical person and somebody who has no regard for human life it seems like, i`m finished in this thread for now, untill i see fit.

You sold a copy in the past. You put up a new thread to sell more. That is clear intent.

Making sure the board does not get shut down is not a childish activity.

Good.
If you're talking to Thomas, then I will leave it at that.
If the two of you come to a clear point of understanding, let me know privately, and I will open this thread again, so that the air may be cleared.

In the mean time, we leave it here, as a simply warning to those looking for a legit DSMLink.