If you can show us any examples of this they will be dealt with.

I assure you, if there are examples out there it is because we overlooked them. Much like your first (successful) attempt at selling copies of DSMLink.

I don't think anyone is asking you to prove the DSMLinks you have are legit. You stated long ago that they are not.

Bah. I'll let Thomas/Dave do what they want with you now.

I just read this post and wow.

I am not trying to start an arguemant, or continue this one.

How many times have you seen in different spots HKS style, Greddy style, Blitz style, etc products for sale? Is this wrong? Maybe, maybe not.

Michael was upfront and said it was an unofficial and unsupported item. Very clear description of the item. I feel if direct copies are being made and sold for profit, that is not right. Personally, for a small company, like DSMLink, I would rather pay full price and support the "little guy." The $600 or whatever the price is goes to them directly. Would they miss one purchase, probably not. If there were 100 people like me, I am sure $60,000 would be a difference to them. The time and effort put into this product is amazing. Kudos to them.

On a larger scale, would HKS care if I didn't buy their product, hell no. What if 100,000 people decided to buy the HKS style muffler, filter, cams, etc. I think they'd notice.

Just my $0.02

Buddy, that is the whole FREAKING PROBLEM. why don't you get it? And you think you are in the power play by DOING the illegal thing man!!!! I feel sorry that I need to tell you that doing the illegal thing IS illegal. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

let me go over this once more, you shoudl NOT be so proud of your immoral and illegal action. That is simple to me, I don't know about you?!


If you have failed to see the OBVIOUS moral, legal and technical differences then you should see a doctor soon. I am not being sarcastic, the difference are too grave for me to point out.

If I make a game for XBox and sell it, it is QUITE different than manufacturing cheap Xbox machines and selling them.


Stop the nonsense and don't give me Capital letter indications that you were PIRATING the damn thing.

Again, I have to agree with Michael on the "selective enforcement" issue. How many times have I seen stuff for sale "brand new, in the box, no taxes" and often by the same people. You can't tell me those transactions are all legit and above board. Also, this site links to information like how to (illegally) avoid paying duty. Like Noah said, whether this is a sad fact or not, this is probably good for Michael's "business", if he is in fact running a business selling this stuff. If this is such a crime, there should be no market for it. If it is so offensive, no-one should be willing to buy it. Fact of the matter is, as long as there is a market, SOMEONE is going to supply it! I still think he never misrepresented the product, and never forced anyone to buy, or even to read his post. If this is going to be so strictly enforced, then maybe the mods should be questioning the origin of everything that is sold on this board to make sure it is legit? Maybe they should also not be directing people to search sites that counsel them on how to break the laws. Again, I think offence is being taken not because of an alleged "rip off", but because of WHO is allegedly being "ripped off".

You guys go through to much drama, you people need a damn life... :rolleyes:

What Ziggy pointed out is a valid point in my eyes. I must say I`m kinda sorry for bringing him into this, because after doing a bit of thinking, it became quite clear that what Ziggy was doing and selling cannot be entirely compared to my item, so I`m sorry if I have 'caused any troubles.

Amin: Ok you have shown me no proof this is illegal, and unless you show me documentation anything from this point that you say to me will be ignored.

Jonny & Ziggy: I`m glad i`m not the only one that sees the "soap-opera" in this. I`m sorry guys, the choice is quite clear, you don't like it? Don't talk about it and don't buy it, and do not promote it. There is a simple solution to stop the killing in our country, STOP MAKING KNIVES. Right? Wrong.. some things cannot be solved very easily, and neither can this, so let's please move on with out lives and not loose TOO much sleep over this.

At first I hoped you wouldn't find yourself in legal trouble over this, but you obviously are bringing it on yourself and spitting in the faces of Thomas and Dave. Let's see if the proof comes to you in a form of a legal matter from the boys at DSMLink. That'll be your proof.

Noah Wiles: Ok, and how long am I to wait for this "letter" can you give me a time-estimate? Because it looks rather foolish on you to promise/suggest something that you cannot backup with any sort of facts. So I would suggest you keep myths and "assumptions" aside untill you have something solid to come to me with.

If you have a legit reason and proof for me then I`m all ears and are open to a normal discussion regarding "legal" side of this, otherwise do not post un-founded accusations and personal beliefs what "should be" in retrospect to "what is".

I never said it was coming, I just simply stated that it's a possibility. And for the record, I hoped it wouldn't come to this, but you seem to be challenging it and wanting it.

One more thing I forgot to add, is that I did speak by e-mail to Thomas regarding this issue. And as obvious as it may be that he does aprove on my actions, I must say I have great respect for the guy and value the kind of profesionallism he used to get his point across.

Most of the people here have acted like a pack of wolfes and caused a riot to bash one person in hopes of getting somebody to stop something. NOT EVEN once have I received an e-mail from any of the MODs here telling me to stop selling this and that my actions will not be tolerated, instead, they chose to lead a battle of un-informed people after me in hopes of making themselves look even more powerull.

And back to Thomas, I must say he and whoever he works with must have put a really great deal of effort and work into making such a great product as DSMLink. I hope that there are others un-like me and who pay full-price for the full-product and I wish them nothing but luck with their new V2 and perhaps any new upcoming versions in the future. But I have chosen this path to take and must unfortunately defent my position.

Mike, please help me unterstand. You think they do great things at DSMLink, but you are saying that you are going to continue to sell a product they created? Can you please clarify?

1.I dont need to show or proof anything here. I am not going to loose OR gain in this matter. why the hell would I bother to show you that your action is illegal. For all I care... I don't care
2.You ignore me, OH BOY, such a threat. My life depends on the fact that you believe me in that this crap is illegal!
3.This rather "will ignore" just proved that you lacked any kind of counter-arguement.
4.You need a proof that copying some one else's work IS illegal? Oh man, you are not the sharpest tool in the tool box! :rolleyes:
I was stating the obvious and I am NOT the crown that you are trying to prove me wrong.

I can't believe that somebody needs proof from me that copying someone else's work is illegal.


Dear Michael,
This "Thomas emailed me that I am OK" was a right turn in this story but was too late. If this was your arguement you could have presented it in the first post. Nice try though.


Ignore me for all I care
Know your enemy better next time. I am not one son, you are not worth it.

Noah: Unfortunately I cannot clarify. I do not see how anybody could take something that they would not hold "valuable" or "great". If you're going to rob a bank, is it because you have nothing better to do, or is it because it holds a sort of "value" to you? I don't see alot of people stealing candy-wrappers out of garbage bins, because it is not "valuable" to them.

Call it stealing, pirating, whatever word you use for this, and regardless of my actions, I hold DSMLink to be a valuable tool and one that deserves it's praise and the praise that it has so-far received from people all from around the continent.

Amin: To answer and "counter-argument" some of your points in your post..

1. Great point, I should not have to prove this "DSMLink" is not authentic and because I really have NOTHING to loose, For all I care.. I don't care. (meaning I can rip anyone off and be a total asshole about it)

2. .. nothing to say regarding this point

3. I simply wanted a way to end this endless argument that everyone is having. But so be it your choice to continue.. here we go again.

4. No I did not ask for a "generalization" of this partricular law. Everyone knows copying "stuff" is illegal. I wanted some more detailed context and how this applies to me and how it compares to what DSMLink has done.

I am not as stupid as you may think, and yes I do know copying, pirating, duplicating, etc.. etc.. is frowned upon and illegal so no, I do not need that clarified.

And as for the "Thomas" issue, I think we can both agree on one thing, that this has gone too far for me to try and find a "slip-whole" through which I can quickly escape and come out clean and without a scratch. This unfortunately will not happen and I will not look for any excuse to get me out of this. I have chosen to do something and I will remain this way, I have not used Thomas as any sort of "try" to get me out of trouble, it was nothing more than a personal opinion of him, and nothing more.

"And if those guys are making copies of their chips and just selling them for $695usd then I think we should look harder at who is ripping off who."

Those guys spent years developing a kick ass product and spend lots of time every day supporting it. Thats why they can charge
$695usd, and in my opinion they earn every penny of it.

I`m all behind you..

The quote I wrote was directed at the person who assumed I copy a million a chips and sell them for this price, which is not the truth, and something that DSMLink is not doing either, alot of work went into the connector which is really what makes DSMLink unique (aside from the coding itself ofcourse). They deserve every dollar they can make out of this product. And anybody who wants to order from them, I will not discourage anyone from doing so, and I think they deserve it and encourage it as I`m sure the support and future upgrades will eventually pay off.

Ok here goes I thought my original post pretty much covered it. What companies pay me to do is cut through all the crap, find the problem, devise a solution, manage the implementation then review results. You will get steps 1,2 and 3 for free.

Andrew and Steve hit the real problem on the head with their first posts and pretty much all the rest of the stuff that follows those posts are filler and smoke n mirrors.

Background:

Michael presents a DSMlink, which I will simply call the "Product", for sale.

The product is posted in "Wanted to Sell" a forum for the private sale of goods. Given that there may be some legal implications with the sale of the Product Andrew asks for clarification. Based on the forum used on CA.DSM and the BC DSM post it would lead a buyer to believe the Product is the only one the Seller has and he obtained it in error.
The Seller indicates that he doesnt manufacture the product:

THE PROBLEM:

The Product is actually plural as there are at least two Products. So this is potentially a business and should be posted in commercial advertisements. The Seller is misrepresenting himself. The seller is either a reseller/distributor or a manufacturer making a profit from the product. Based on that fact alone the board adminstrators and members may have an issue with the Sellers credibilty. The issue of the legality of the Product is secondary.

My recommendation to the Seller of the Product is simply not to post on a public board or at least to post in the right forum and omit information rather than fabricate it. "I bring this Product in from the States and it costs this much and is similiar in function to this"

Misrepresentation and liability are concerns for the board while legality is the concern of the courts.

"And back to Thomas, I must say he and whoever he works with must have put a really great deal of effort and work into making such a great product as DSMLink. I hope that there are others un-like me and who pay full-price for the full-product and I wish them nothing but luck with their new V2 and perhaps any new upcoming versions in the future. But I have chosen this path to take and must unfortunately defent my position. "

Michael think about this. Why would anyone in the future invest in the next DSMlink type of thing? I mean they put in countless hours of research, trial, error, blood sweat and tears and as soon as it hits the market people just copy the code and resell it for half the price. The next time someone has a great idea that could help us out why the would they put the effort in?

Oh, geezus, where to begin? Like I need another freaking soap opera to deal with. Look, Michael, here's the core problem, IMO. Getting screwed over by purchasing a counterfeit copy from someone, once, and then trying to offload the product is one thing. Technically not legal, but let's not get mired down in those details as that's not what appears to be going on here.

You've told me multiple times in e-mail that you've only sold ONE copy EVER and that was IT. I assumed at the time that you were referring to this copy being presented here in this thread. But then I find references to prior sales like this one:

Prior sale

And I get an e-mail from someone saying you're the "go to" guy for counterfeit stuff. So I start scratching my head a little. Then another e-mail comes in with the same implication. And another. Then the admins of this board tell me they received similar e-mails.

So now I have to think you're lying to me again. Have you sold one, once, in the past and are now trying to sell a second right in front of us? Dude, that would be so sleezy I don't even know where to begin. Or, did you really just buy one copy one time and are trying to offload it like you told me in e-mail? If so, then how can you explain the prior sale in October of last year?

I was going to write a bunch more, but I think I'll hold off. The reason being that if I embed too many questions in the post, then all the important ones will get ignored. So let me summarize the one major question in this post and we'll pick up from there once we have an answer.

- Do you intend to sell more than one counterfeit copy of DSMLink?

Thomas Dorris

Okay, I'd said I was going to avoid this with a ten foot pole, but here we go...

If the admins would like an example of 'selective enforcement of IP rules or otherwise illegal sales, I'd provide the following for your opinions on why they still stand as business as usual.

HKS 're grinds'. Blatant rip-off's of HKS's hard work. There are hundreds of sets out there, someone just tossed an HKS original specs into a CNC Lathe and they're now punched out more than originals are purchased. Exact duplicates down to the degree. Ones cut from blanks, ones re-ground from old cams which were spatter welded, and ones cut to a small base circle (which are still illegal if your copying HKS's specs). This board not only allows discussion and sales of these, but allows group buys. IP rip-off, without repercussion it seems.

Mitsu repair manuals are traded and copied on a regular basis.

I dug around and found a copy of Windows XP OEM for sale, not available over the counter (illegal to sell by itself), illegal to remove from the PC it was bundled with, and is never for re-sale. No warnings, and it's a 10k fine folks...

Radar Detectors? If your going to stomp out illegal sales, that might be a good place to start. I see one very recently, and seem to recall a group purchase.

Previously viewed DVD's, while (to me) there's little moral implications, they're still *way* into the grey if not black to sell, and to advertise them on a board?

There have been several discussions which bring up Kazaa, which rips off more IP in a day then I'll do in a lifetime

I have no opinion on Mikes particular matter right or wrong, and ZERO desire to debate it, please don't take this as anything other than a good loud fence sitter.

But if your going to try to nail him on a basis OTHER than "DSM link is our friend, don't copy them" your going to need to reach all over this board, or call a duck a duck and say you don't like it because in your opinion DSMLink is above the board 'law'of allowing this type of sale normally so to speak. So far only individuals like Mike or Ziggy have been picked out and nailed for what's a debatable topic at best, and done in many other worse ways and times without discussion on this board at worst.


And for those of you who start trying to split hairs, as if company size dictates your morals, tell me, just how much money do you need to make before you've got 'too much and need some stolen from you'? Is there a financial line, or size of your building before IP laws cease to apply?

Do you think it's a bigger problem for HKS that hundreds and hundreds of sets of 600$ cams are being copied, to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars, on boards JUST LIKE THIS, or if the nice guys down the street from a version of a product they no longer sell, potentially could lose a sale. It's the exact same thing. In fact, I'll bet it's cost several jobs at HKS with the money they've lost, and easily effect their decisions to continue producing parts for a particular car, which they know the owners to be unscrupulous and just copy as fast as they can.

We won't even get into the millions MS looses. Just how many 'nice guys who pick up the phone at 10pm' could that money have hired over at MS? I have friends who work there, and work hard, who deserve that money just as much as any one else, they're people with families too, who's jobs are at risk when someone 'copies that floppy' (for those of you old enough to remember the ad)

The mods/owners are welcome to call this anything they like, run this however they like, ban, delete topics, whatever they like, it's their board! Just don't try and justify it to the members with an "it's immoral" stamp, while a dozen other items sit outstanding as we speak.


Paul

If your going to call the Kettle black, you'd better make *damned* sure your not a pot.

Edit: Arrgh, too many topics, X-box mod chips, PS/2 Mod chips are advertised as well. To me, copying software is the exact same moral boat as copying DSMLink chips. Someone's work is getting copied in any event, but only one of them is picked apart.

Many of the points you have raised are under discussion presently by the mods. Some have more merrit then others, don't expect this to be the last time we clamp down of copies.

To the loud fence sitter, who is dragging us off topic, here's a summary of your concern:

"HKS 're grinds'. Blatant rip-off's of HKS's hard work..."

No, they're not.
They're cheap cams, made from possibly inferior materials, etc, simply ground to commonly known specs that people like for their engines.
You get what you pay for.

"Mitsu repair manuals are traded and copied on a regular basis."

I bought and paid for mine, both the electronic, and the original paper one from Chrysler. I don't know about you.
We wouldn't permit the sale of illegitimate versions on here.

"I dug around and found a copy of Windows XP OEM for sale, not available over the counter (illegal to sell by itself), illegal to remove from the PC it was bundled with, and is never for re-sale. No warnings, and it's a 10k fine folks..."

Where?

"Radar Detectors? If your going to stomp out illegal sales, that might be a good place to start. I see one very recently, and seem to recall a group purchase."

These are NOT illegal.
They are illegal to use in Ontario.
They are legal in other provinces, and in fact, BelTronics International head office, is in Mississauga.

"Previously viewed DVD's, while (to me) there's little moral implications, they're still *way* into the grey if not black to sell, and to advertise them on a board?"

Huh? Used DVDs? How are they illegal?
My local video store sells them, retail.

"There have been several discussions which bring up Kazaa, which rips off more IP in a day then I'll do in a lifetime"

Discussions about Kazaa?
Is that like saying we can't use the word -gulp- "murder"?


----------

No more off topic, we're almost done. Let's leave this alone now, and let Thomas get an answer from Michael, once and for all... ok?

Please?

Then might I politely suggest you start a new thread on the topic you do have an opinion on? This one has a very specific subject. There have already been far too many divergences from that topic to make any sense of what's going on anymore. This is how threads get all muddied up and mired down in arguments about too many things to ever solve any one of them. I'd rather like to focus on the topic at hand, which is the sale of "DSMLink V1" by someone that doesn't appear to own a legitimate copy.

Thomas Dorris

Michael,
Two Questions.
You state that this is one copy, one that you got stuck with buying off the other DSM boards, why didn't you go back to the guy you bought it off.
And if this is the one copy you have, how do you explain that a quick search of THIS UBB indicates you have already sold a copy of DSMLink?

I have already sold one copy, if anyone on here can show me how they think I've sold MORE or MULTIPLE copies than show me proof, don't simply tell me you've recevied e-mails, ,because i have NOT sold multiple copies.

Secondly, I`m talking to Thomas Dorris right now and have no desire to continute this child-ish "gladiator" debate on here so I will finish conversation with him and nobody else, you have had your chance to have a normal discussion but instead chose to call me a thief, a law-breaker, immoral and un-ethical person and somebody who has no regard for human life it seems like, i`m finished in this thread for now, untill i see fit.

You sold a copy in the past. You put up a new thread to sell more. That is clear intent.

Making sure the board does not get shut down is not a childish activity.

Good.
If you're talking to Thomas, then I will leave it at that.
If the two of you come to a clear point of understanding, let me know privately, and I will open this thread again, so that the air may be cleared.

In the mean time, we leave it here, as a simply warning to those looking for a legit DSMLink.