Well, with my current setup (Al Blaha MAF, starion FMIC, 19psi of boost.) I realize I'm getting close to maxing out my injectors. Sooner or later that poor 14B is gonna go. (214 000 km so far.. it's gotta be a time bomb by now!!).

Obviously, when it does, I'm going to upgrade to a 16G. I'm pretty sure that will be more than the stock injectors can take. (At stock pressure).

Will bumping up the pressure give me enough more flow out of the 450's, or do I HAVE to get 550's??


------------------
1992 Eagle Talon Tsi FWD
Superiority after 60'..


ICQ # 9622983
www3.sympatico.ca/steve.kinnaird

Sorry to post here Steve,but could you shed some light on the Al Blaha maf mod I have seen posted here a few times? What does it do? Is it worth it? How much $$$ ? Also, the difference between my maf (lower honeycomb removed, air silencer removed,hacked air can witha K&N ? Thanks again!

FRanky's 92 T.s.i

I remember reading that you can put a higher fuel pressure, but only to a certain degree. But the cost of a fuel regulator makes buying the 550's more appealing personally. On cold days with a 16G, you will reach 100% duty cycle at 16 psi and more.

------------------
Michel
http://www.azur.qc.ca/rallye

Actually, there's a VERY cheap (hack) way of raising the fuel pressure.. just "crush" the stock FPR (much like the 1G bov..)

However, the downsides to this are obvious. (I was thinking of trying it with a spare FPR). There's also the auto FPR which runs (I think) about 4 psi higher, and the N/T runs (again, I think) about 10 psi higher..)

------------------
1992 Eagle Talon Tsi FWD
Superiority after 60'..


ICQ # 9622983
www3.sympatico.ca/steve.kinnaird

Cool, I did'nt know that. Well if you live close to Craig Watson, you could probably ask him for the stock FPR I gave him last summer when he thought he had a problem with his.

------------------
Michel
http://www.azur.qc.ca/rallye

LOL!!!

LOL!!!

That's the exact one I'm waiting to hear about!! I assume he's at Blue Mountain for ANOTHER weekend!!

------------------
1992 Eagle Talon Tsi FWD
Superiority after 60'..


ICQ # 9622983
www3.sympatico.ca/steve.kinnaird

Frank: did you get that e-mail I sent you about the MAF mod??

Just checking to make sure the e-mail address in the UBB is current..

------------------
1992 Eagle Talon Tsi FWD
Superiority after 60'..


ICQ # 9622983
www3.sympatico.ca/steve.kinnaird

Steve, have you done the fuel pump re-wire yet? Thats good for a bunch of fuel

I wouldn't screw with the FPR if I was you

------------------
PurplePlymouthGuy
1992 Laser AWD
DSMentia support group leader...
so many mods, I don't remember if its 20G or 20g's

Yep.. already done!!

I'm running just a TOUCH lean when it's below -5 right now (I believe due to the Al Blaha MAF, I'm sure it'll be running way rich once it warms up some more..)

I was more concerned about the future. ie: should I get the 16G and 550's at the same time??

------------------
1992 Eagle Talon Tsi FWD
Superiority after 60'..


ICQ # 9622983
www3.sympatico.ca/steve.kinnaird

Question.. how do you know when you're maxing out your injectors? Is there a home made gauge one can use? Symptomps?

Steve: I had the car at Magnus yesterday.. Arnel found the boost leak i was looking for And he loosed the fuel fitting for me, so i could do the pump mod. So looks like the rewire/pump will go in as soon as it's warm Alas.. running damn rich STILL tho! 1.12-1.15v! No fuel cut at 17psi tho. .just lottsa black smoke

I believe a datalogger will tell you.. Chris?? PPG?? care to shed a little more light on this??

Glad to hear you found the leak!! Black smoke?? Time to hack your MAF!!

I'm sure Johnny's Type R is getting tired of breathing all that smoke from behind you

------------------
1992 Eagle Talon Tsi FWD
Superiority after 60'..


ICQ # 9622983
www3.sympatico.ca/steve.kinnaird

The MAF is hacked already
Looks like it's time to go visit Mike J.
Plus.. my idle is doing the classic 1000-1250 dance Maybe his mod will clear it up as a bonus.

I ran "maxed out" injectors for over a year and the car was always running rich. So rich in fact that there's carbon deposits on the pistons.

I even ran 12.9 at almost 108MPH on pump gas, with the stock 450s!

YMMV!

------------------
Francois Villeneuve
Le Talon
Working on it...

Are you saying maxxed out injectors cause the car to run rich? Why would this happen?

------------------
Fast & Awesome Handling
'90 AWD
$h!tbox

Yes please do explain.. could my injectors be maxed out already? Running 15psi on a 16g, with no fuel rewire.. no fuel pump mod, and a hacked MAF???

The stock pump/wire configuration should be the first hinderance in getting the proper fuel to the engine once you start getting up there in boost. The pump should start failing at high rpms (dropping your a/f ratio at rpms above 5.5k or so) before you hit 100% duty cycle on the injectors. There are 2 ways I know of to monitor it and they both lie with Technomotive... one is Todd's Datalogger (I really want one of these) and the other is the funcky cool mods he does to your stock boost gauge. Check it out:[htm]http://www.tmo.com/[/htm]

Later...



------------------
Mike Jackson
92 Laser RS-T, FWD
-Quadcylla-
Vortex Racing
http://www3.sympatico.ca/robin.jackson2/HomePage.htm

When our injectors hit 100% duty cycle they just stay open.. dumping in as much fuel as the pump can deliver... this will cause you to run rich, and can burn out the injectors..

Jer: I thought you had a Walbro put in recently?? Above, Michel said you can max out the 450's with a 16G at 16psi on a cold day.. sounds pretty close to what you're running... and it IS cold out!!

I actually had a digest member tell me on pump gas he was maxing his 450's with a ported 14B (didn't say what boost that was at though..)

However.. I've also heard that Buschur claims you don't need 550's until you're deep into the 12's... argh.. I'm beginning to think I might just buy the damn things so I don't have to worry.. Although, I did get that spare FPR from Craig...


(Wow! Can't believe I spelled Buschur wrong!! I gotta start proofreading!!)
------------------
1992 Eagle Talon Tsi FWD
Superiority after 60'..


ICQ # 9622983
www3.sympatico.ca/steve.kinnaird



[This message has been edited by Steve Kinnaird (edited February 03, 2000).]

The logger shows injector duty in miliseconds, and also shows the #1 reason for poor running cars....MAF over-run

worth the investment IMHO

------------------
PurplePlymouthGuy
1992 Laser AWD
DSMentia support group leader...
so many mods, I don't remember if its 20G or 20g's

You can buy injector duty cycle gauges. There is one that is a combo A/F and duty cycle gauge. PPG has this one, can't remember the name right now.
If you go to RC engineerings site you can see by their calculations that the 450's are only good for about 250hp at 80 % duty cycle.
I say it's better to be safer than sorry so 550's will be one of my near future mods (when I get some MORE money saved and providing the F@#$N Caravan doesn't break, again)


------------------
'91 Laser RS Turbo-"Sound Advice" guy.
www.geocities.com/motorcity/speedway/5051
Turbo + Intercooler = The replacement for Displacement

I posted this to the digest as well, and got this reply:

"I layed down 318hp on my Factory 450's & a 16G. They will DEFINATELY be fine
in the short run (you might have to turn down the boost) and maybe in the
long. There's a little free trick you can do to increase FP though. It'll
help. In your firewall, there's a solenoid that runs from pressure to
solenoid to FP regulator. Take it out. It cuts airflow to the FP regulator
and without it it'll give you about 10 - 25 more FP at WOT under high boost.

Good Luck!
Ryan Jones
'95 GS-T
'91 TSi AWD"




------------------
1992 Eagle Talon Tsi FWD
Superiority after 60'..


ICQ # 9622983
www3.sympatico.ca/steve.kinnaird

In todays digest John Hindle posted about selling his '90 Laser which has run a 12.72. I emailed him to see if he has 550's for sale and he responded that he only used the 450's! Stock turbo, stock injectors and FWD and he runs a 12.72!

------------------
'91 Laser RS Turbo-"Sound Advice" guy.
www.geocities.com/motorcity/speedway/5051
Turbo + Intercooler = The replacement for Displacement

Okay I really want to know his configuration... hook me up with his email add please.

Later...

------------------
Mike Jackson
92 Laser RS-T, FWD
-Quadcylla-
Vortex Racing
http://www3.sympatico.ca/robin.jackson2/HomePage.htm

Steve... don't get your hopes up... do a search of the Taolon Digest archives on -FPR solenoid-. It doesn't look like it'll help to remove it. I don't fully understand the system though so this is just a reading assignment

Later...

------------------
Mike Jackson
92 Laser RS-T, FWD
-Quadcylla-
Vortex Racing
http://www3.sympatico.ca/robin.jackson2/HomePage.htm

I don't know where he got the 10 - 25 psi higher FP from bypassing the solenoid (Which I already did to stop it from running STUPIDLY rich when cold (I was sitting at .95 just cruising down the street..!)

The part I thought was important was the 318 HP with the 450s. Like Chris said, according to the RC engineering injector calculator (say that fast 5 times!!) the 450s
are only good up to 250 HP (right where I was BEFORE the Al Blaha MAF, and higher boost.. )

Hmm... that's it.. I won't be happy until I see a 12.xxx this year!!

------------------
1992 Eagle Talon Tsi FWD
Superiority after 60'..


ICQ # 9622983
www3.sympatico.ca/steve.kinnaird

Steve:

I hate to state the obvious, but....

You ask: When do you need 550s?

Ans: As soon as Mrs. Kinnaird (and I don't mean your mother) says you need them, and not a race season sooner.

Joe "hoping to see 13s" L

LOL!! All to true!!

------------------
1992 Eagle Talon Tsi FWD
Superiority after 60'..


ICQ # 9622983
www3.sympatico.ca/steve.kinnaird

I'll try to explain myself.

You have to keep in mind that 2Gs have very conservative and safe fuel curves. It doesn't take such a high reading from the MAF for the ECU to go crazy and have the injectors going at 100% duty cycle.

So, how can I read my injector duty cycle? I have TMO 3. How can I say that I never ran lean with the 450s? I have the motor apart (rebuilding it for race) and all the components look like new! No trace of heat or detonation anywhere! Even the rings look fine. In fact, before the engine was dismantled, a leakdown test showed less than 3% loss! It's almost as high as a brand new engine!

How long did I ran with the stock injectors and the 16G? About a year of once or twice a week at the track. How many passes? Well over 500. How many times did I break anything? Apart from one tranny incident, never!

So, do I take my information from my ass or from my own experience? Well, I'll let you be the judge of that. I also had a long conversation with *both* Tym Swytzer and Doug Derby about that injectors thing. They both said the same thing. Unless you're running lean, you don't need to change your injectors. The DSM fuel curves are so fat than running too big injectors will make it very difficult to have a good mixture at mid rpms. Heck, Dave is running 620s on the RWD!

But, as always, YMMV!

------------------
Francois Villeneuve
Le Talon
Working on it...

some more insight into why injectors rated for 250 hp can make 300+ in dsm cars is the method in which the ecu fires the injectors...2-3 times per spark fire. This means tons of fuel moreso than some other cars...

------------------
PurplePlymouthGuy
1992 Laser AWD
DSMentia support group leader...
so many mods, I don't remember if its 20G or 20g's

Well, for what it's worth, I crushed my spare FPR 3/32".

This caused my 02 voltages to go from .82 up to .88...

I don't have a guage though, so I'm not sure what pressure I'm running now

------------------
1992 Eagle Talon Tsi FWD
Superiority after 60'..


ICQ # 9622983
www3.sympatico.ca/steve.kinnaird

Correction. You crushed MY spare FPR. hehe

I think I would want to install a fuel pressure guage also. I don't know if my 2 fuel pumps will be enough wth the new turbo.

Does anybody know of how much they go for?

------------------
Michel
it's going to be ready tomorrow, I promise
http://www.azur.qc.ca/rallye

Steve.. earlier on in the thread, you mentioned you were running a little lean.
Then you mentioned you bypassed that "solenoid" in the firewall, because you were running "stupidly rich".
Did i read this right? So you bypassed the solenoid and it brought down your A/F ratio's?

I think i remember reading something about carbon buildup in the TB which can cause the car to run really rich, does anyone know how/if this is related/founded?

It's funny, in the summer, I'd hit fuel cut at 14psi. No stutter.
Now it's winter and the car stutters at 15psi, but no fuel cut.

But if injectors at 100% allow as much fuel as possible through, that might explain my i'm running so damn rich right?
So let's say that my injectors are maxed out, the question is why would they be maxed out, when i have no FP rewire, and the Walbro ISN'T installed yet. Could the injectors be bad/shot?
There's got to be some kind of home made injector duty cycle gauge, otherwise i guess i'll have to go buy one.
Then again, how much is a datalogger?

1.2v @ WOT doesn't feel good

The fuel solenoid is only in use when you FIRST start the car. It closes to richen things up until the car warms up. Once it's warm, the solenoid opens again and things go to "normal". I found I was running really rich (REALLY rich!!) when the car was cold, so I bypassed the solenoid. Now, it just runs rich..


You seem to be running VERY rich for 15 psi with a 16G on the stock pump.

From here on is me GUESSING!!!

Maybe you ARE maxing your injectors out at that boost. Injector pulse width is based on airflow (a bigger pump won't stop it).

If they are hitting 100% then, that might explain why you're getting 1+ volts on the 02 sensor.

Rutledge used to run 24 psi on his 16G with stock injectors though.. I dunno.. I'm going to stop guessing now.. can anyone else take it from here??


------------------
1992 Eagle Talon Tsi FWD
Superiority after 60'..


ICQ # 9622983
www3.sympatico.ca/steve.kinnaird

Hey guys,

I think the 450's are fine for stock turbos and 16Gs up to a point of course. I ran 12.8s w/ stock inj and a 16G w/o (had a VPC tho) any fuel problems what-so-ever! In fact, I had more room to boot. What I would suggest b4 you go spending $$$ on bigger inj is a good fuel management system (ie.PMS, VPC, S-AFC). This is more important to 'tune' your car properly b4 you buy those big squirt guns.

Besides, if you do decide to buy 550s or bigger, you'll need a fuel management system anyhow! If anyone decides to squish their fpr, you should ALWAYS check the fuel pressure w/ a guage. This is imperative! You have to know what your base rail pressure is (idle), and esp see what's going on when the boost is on. Btw, NT fpr's don't increase w/ boost pressure so please DON'T USE THEM! They do run higher idle pressure but they are static unlike our fprs.

By by-passing the fuel solenoid on the firewall, all it does is by-pass the cold idle setup. Instead of creating a vacuum (negative state), it blocks the air passage and creates a '0' state which increases fuel pressure. As SK said, it's just for warming up the car. I had to by-pass mine as well, the car ran WAY too rich. And the American guy (?) who stated that by by-passing the solenoid will increase air flow is correct as well b/c there is no obstruction as to the path of the air under positive pressure (boost). Think of it this way, if you put one of those tiny plastic connectors that is on the fuel solenoid into the waste gate line, you'll probably end up w/ around 12-13psi rather than the stock setting of 10-11psi. However, I dunno about the stated increase of 10-25psi?

As someone else stated (sorry, I can't access who said what while writing this), there is a certain LIMIT to how much pressure you can run on your inj. Too much pressure can have the same effect as decreasing the amount of fuel flow. Think of it as one of those spray bottles...the more you crank it to a fine mist, the greatere the pressure but the less amount of water that is expelled. That and too much pressure will KILL your inj. That's why whenever you're doing heavy mods on your car, you should always check the fuel pressure both on and off boost.

Rewiring the pump is a must b/c it allows the fuel pump to get a more consistent voltage. This is especially important under high boost where stability is crucial.

For those of you worried about 100 duty cycle on your inj...don't b/c one way you'll find out is if you hit the dreaded fuel cut! It's a failsafe mechanism from Mits that shuts the fuel system down for a split second when your inj reaches 100% or when you run out of fuel. You have to remember that as stated by many guys, our fuel maps do run rich so by adding a fuel management system, you can take better advantage of your injectors.

Re: RC's inj calculator....that is quite conservative estimates so your stock inj can certainly handle more than the stated 250hp at a 'safe' 80% duty cyle.

I think 2 of the best investments that can be made to a turbo car (save for the cheap boost tweaks, exhaust, filter, etc.) is a good FMIC, and a fuel management system. W/ these 2, you can't really go wrong (ya right PPG,AB,LC,and even me!) ;P

I have no idea how DB is running 'only' 620cc inj according to someone's post. A well prepped, heavilly modded 16G should indeed be using 550s and a well prepped 20G should rightfully be using 660s too. I'm currently using 550s tho and still working out some bugs in the system.

Anyhow, that's more than an eyeful so I'll sign off...what a load of bs eh?

Good luck and bigger turbos don't mean anything if the car isn't set up right!



------------------
Slowpoke,
The Black Plagued 91 AWD

WOW!!!!

Thanks, AC!!

------------------
1992 Eagle Talon Tsi FWD
Superiority after 60'..


ICQ # 9622983
www3.sympatico.ca/steve.kinnaird

One correction Andrew... fuel cut is not based on injector duty cycle... it is based on air-mass (air volume + adjustment for both barometric pressure and temperature). Yes is was put in there to protect against things like 100% injector duty cycle and fuel pump max out... but it is directly related to the amount of air entering the system not duty cycle or boost as a lot of people think. So say you get Todds mods to remove fuel cut... guess what you'll hit 100% and the computer won't step in (other then the excessive knock defense caused by the now lean irratic condition). Or if you have a hacked MAF or are using an AFC to make it look like the air flow is less then it actually is guess what... no fuel cut there either. It's then up to you not the ECU to watch out for max duty cycle and to make sure you're not maxing out the fuel delivery system.

Later...

------------------
Mike J

-Quadcylla-
92 Laser RS-T, FWD

Vortex Racing
http://www3.sympatico.ca/robin.jackson2/HomePage.htm

[This message has been edited by Mike Jackson (edited February 23, 2000).]

Would you still recommend the Fuel pump re-wire if you have the big assed Walbro pump installed ?

I've been told the rewire will make the voltage levels more consistant as well as increase the flow of the pump. Can't back up the first claim though... just heard it somewhere.

Later...

------------------
Mike J

-Quadcylla-
92 Laser RS-T, FWD

Vortex Racing
http://www3.sympatico.ca/robin.jackson2/HomePage.htm

heeheheheh..... I'm baaaack

Nino, I'm running one of them big a$$ walbro's in my car. Rewiring it is important to get the best performance out of it [think of it kinda like the stereo guys that run larger wires for their sound systems] Like M.J. said, and it will help stablize the power supply to the pump; it will also help protect the pump (from trying to draw too much juice from smaller wires). Not to mention it is a relatively cheap mod (and if you have a stereo wired in your hatch - you are half way there already )

Michel, it's been a while. How trix? Re: the pressure regulator, my Paxton cost me somewhere around $300 to have it express mailed and brought onto Canadian soil... I may have paid too much, but oh well... they go for around $150US. The biggest problem that I had when looking for one was that no one (parts sales people) knew what the heck they were talking about. As A.C. mentioned, we with the turbo'd cars need to have a pressure controlled regulator (that's what makes them so durned $$$) I still have to install mine . BTW- I still have your stock FPR, I couldn't find it when S.K. asked, so I gave him the one that came off the fuel rail I got from Brett

And just to add my .02 to the 550 thingy, I'd also heard that until running deep into the 12's 450's were fine (but I don't remember where I heard it, it was just from a reputable source)

------------------
93 Talon Tsi AWD
back from sabbatical

www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Street/1125/


[This message has been edited by Craig Watson (edited February 23, 2000).]

Andrew,
Where can I get more info on the fuel management systems (ie.PMS, VPC, S-AFC) you mentioned?

JT
'91 Talon TSi