Hello again.

Yep last night was a blast. I did the Pay Per Lap for the fourth time (First time this year) with a set of Firestone Firehawk FTX (205 55 16 "89T"), with the big word "looser" (Touring) written on the side wall. Needless to say these gumball were not made for this kind of treatement. I bought the car with them on and never tought that I'd put the ride on the track one day...

The info I'm looking for is what kind of "Rating" should I go for??? H, R or S??? The car is a daily driver, I only do the lap thing 4 or 5 time a year. Now I don't care if a stiffer sidewall tire will give me a stiff ride on the opend road. What I'm looking for is a good tire for the track without going overboard on the rating.

TX.

Ghislain.

<img src=http://www.lks.net/~ghislisa/TireWear.jpg>

BTW; I ran 42 PSI tire pressure on the front in order to now grind the rim down... The treadwear is worn evently. The rears did not roll at all.

[This message has been edited by Ghislain Goudreau (edited May 23, 2000).]

If you're just going to the odd lapping event, you might be able to pick up some used race tires and put them on a second set of wheels.

------------------
Fast & Awesome Handling
'90 AWD
$h!tbox

That would be a consideration... I'd have to get a second set of wheels, probably alloys as the car is presently sporting steel and I'd have to get two new tire for winter use...

TX

Ghislain

I don't really understand your reasoning here. The 'rating' doesn't really have much to do with things. A guy down here was running 'Touring' tires during an AutoX, and they just rolled like nuts. Dangerous. I have cheapo 'wanna-be performance' tires, that howled, but did just fine last year. The speed rating on a touring tire can be high, but it's more the sidewall stiffness that makes the tire.

H? R? S? Pah. What you want is a 'Z' rated tire, ideally. Like having a Porsche 959 or McClaren F1 for your daily driver. Of course, practical considerations help prevent this. It sounds like what you're looking for is a mild performance all-season 'V' rated tire. That'll give you peppy handling, a fair ride, and be a little more quiet.

My choice for an introduction to performance tires would be the BF/Goodrich Comp TA VR4. Very forgiving tire, rides well, cheap, and good treadlife.

Well, the speed rating is an indication of the sidewall stiffness is some ways.
So it can help judging for a high performance tire like the treadwear rating.

It's sometime hard to explain in a short text what you realy mean to say.

Speed rate has a little to tell about sidewall stiffness, not all but has some. I'm trying to get info here in order to make a right choise.

I've heard about those BF/Goodrich Comp TA VR4. I'll be checking into it.

TX all.

Ghislain.

I'm rolling on a set of Toyo Proxies FZ4 that seem pretty nice (but too wide for my tiny stock rims). Also the price seemed pretty good.

Toyo info: http://www.toyo.com/tires/tire_lines/high_perf/fz4.html

BFGoodrich info: http://www.bfgoodrichtires.com/catalog/comp_ta_vr4.html

...might also wanna check out...
Yokohama info: http://www.yokohamatire.com/04b1a.html



------------------
Martin Q
==================>>
Dk Blue '90 TSI AWD

The VR4's are not the tire to buy if you want ultra-quick slalom handling, but they're pretty nice all-around.

Martin, how do you find the FZ4's? I've gotten numerous responses, positive and negative. Most say that they just squeal all the time, and don't take water that well.

I'm shopping too. My choices (and mine are probably close to yours, only I'm putting 225/50/16's on wider rims...FINALLY! (: ) are between:

BF/G Comp TA VR4: Good, all around cheap tire. Not too demanding. $159ea.

Toyo Proxes FZ4: Good looking tread pattern, but unproven as yet to me. Cheap, though, and good treadwear. $155ea.

Pirelli P7000SuperSport: 'Nice' tire. Supposedly responsive, with good treadwear and a great name behind it. $189ea.

Dunlop SP8000: High performance tire. Fair in the wet and dry. Good for autoX. Not as much treadwear, but faster. $85US ea. from Tire Rack.

Look into Kumho Ecsta Supra 712 . Kumho is a Korean brand, well established for truck tires. Their Victor 700 competition tires are well respected. The ECSTA Supra 712 tires are rated Temperature A, Traction A (don't know tread wear rating, but I'd expect it to be around 220). Their speed rating is W , which is higher than Z-rated. And they've got a sexy unidirecitonal tread, too

Tire rack lists the 205/55R16 (1G stock size) for $74US each, 215/55R16 (2G stock size) for $75US each, and $80US for 225/50R16 (same overall diameter as 1G stock size).

You can buy Kumho in Canada at any OK tire outlet. I have the prices at work, I could be wrong, but this is what I remember: 205/55R16 $124Can, 215/55/R16 $133Can, 225/50R16 $141Can, per tire, including installation and balancing. To me, buying in Canada in this case works out cheaper after exchange, shipping, taxes (no way you'll avoid tax/duty shipping on new tires from Tire Rack!). They are back ordered everywhere, though.

These will be my next tires. You might also find them worth looking into, for the price, if you can find a place with them in stock, or can wait until they get them in.

------------------
Marta
90 Eclipse GSX
92 Talon TSi AWD
http://www.geocities.com/dsmgrrrl

[This message has been edited by Marta Cepek (edited July 23, 2000).]

Hello Martha.

I was looking at a Khumo add in SSC mag today. It looks interesting. Got a tire shop that sells the stuff here in Trenton. I bought a set of these for my previous ride, nothing sport but they were pretty good.

The buying in Canada make sense as well. Once you take in consideration the exchange and the Tax...

One more factor that might be interesting is the fact that some tire supplyer will be soon trying to get rid of their stock of summer tires to make room for the winter rubber...

I'll post my finding within a few more days.

Ghislain.

I doubt stock rotation will happen for another couple months. Usually at the same time as "back to school" sales. Look to pay premium prices right now as college kids start their summer jobs and have $$$ to blow.

one more comment, you may want to look for a set of 15" rims and run a slightly wider tire (225/45)

Most wreckers can get you some steel rims that aren't any heavier then alloys for next to nothing.

I was looking at those new Kumho's on the TireRack, but they're as yet unproven. Can't escape duty? So much for NAFTA...

My friend and I are also looking into the Kumho Supras..

I want to get some lickity split, I have the completely wrong tire size on my car, time to get some new ones..

Just to tell you how wrong, I am running 16x7" wheels, with a 215/60R16, when I want to run the 225/50R16...

------------------
- Jay
'95 Eagle Talon ESi
Just a Slow Joe
http://digitalAnomaly.slf.cx

Thanks for the info on the KUMHO tires Marta. I got myself a set of ECSTA 711 205/55/ZR16 at Marsh OK tire centre in Guelph last Fri. The car handles sooo much better now. Not really a fair comparison though as my old tires were Michelen H rated. The 711's are last years model according to the guy at Marsh, and don't have as aggressive a tread pattern as the 712's, but on the other hand they were cheaper too. Cost me $98 per tire. So thanks again, you saved me cash and improved my ride.
Dave

Hey Troy, the Toyo Proxies FZ4 seem like a decent ride, but i have little to compare them to. I've noticed that the front pushes pretty easily and 'squeals'.. but this weekend i found i only had 30 psi in the fronts. I hadn't checked the pressure since i got them swapped. Now i'm up at 45psi and the grip seems much better.

The grip seems predictable, but i think the narrow stock rims has alot to do with poor handling. I'm sure the 16x8 will fix this up nicely. So far i'm happy with them.. i know they respond and grip much better than my Hakka 1's : ) ... but in the snow it's a different story !!

------------------
Martin Q
==================>>
Dk Blue '90 TSI AWD

Martin,
I also have a set of V rated stock size Toyo
Proxes FZ4 on my 91 FWD. I would suggest that you lower that 45 psi to 34-36psi or
else you'll get more treadwear in the middle
of your tire. This was happening to my front
tires with only 37-38 psi. Otherwise, these
are fine tires and great through puddles.

Dave,
I went over to Marsh OK tire in Guelph Saturday and picked up a set of Kumho 711's
Z-rated of the stock size for my AWD. Apparently the 711's are discontinued so I
got them for $98 each also. Thanks.

Marta,
Thanks for the tip on the Kumho's. Once again you've come through as a bargain hunter
extraordinaire!

A local guy (not on the 'Net) has a set of Proxes FZ4's new on his 1G NT, and told me that they squeal alot as well, so I think I'll disregard those.

How much can I get the Kumho 711 or 712's for out of Ontario, anyone? I can't find anyone down here that has them. I'm looking for 225/50R16's. I still can't believe how much cheaper allseason perf. tires are compared to summer-only ones.

Paul,
My Toyo's are not stock size, they are 225/50's which are too wide for the stock rims, that's why i'd like to get some 16x8 wheels for a better fit, and better response/handling. The reason why i incresed the tire pressure, is that i found it odd that i was 'breaking loose' so easily on the front. The tires are rated for 44psi and when i increased the pressure i noticed a great improvement in response and grip.

Just to put in my little tire experience. Someone mentioned the SP8000's. I would not buy those tires for a daily driver and autoX events. You will kill them in one season, IMHO. I had a set on my car and they lasted just over 20K. They were a blast to drive but the wear was just too high.

I now have a set of SP9000 and they aren't as grippy in the dry as the 8k's but they have a treadwear of 300 and they are excellent in the wet and not as noisy. I have around 16K on them now and they have no noticable wear. I think I'll get ~40K out of them before they need replacing.

I'm pretty aggressive in my daily driving, you know how it is, you drive the same route to work, you have to try take those ramps and corners quicker everyday... ;^)

I think the best route to take is another set of wheels for the lapping and use a performance all season for daily driving. I run winters since I do a fair bit of up-north driving.

P.S I put on the SP8000's early in the spring and happened to catch the last bit of snow the other year, NO traction, even with AWD. So you need to decide between All-Season and summers first before picking a tire...

That was me, and I do use dedicated Winters.

Noone has answered my question about the Kumhos yet!!! Who has them up there and how much do they cost for 225/50R16's? (:

The FZ4's are horrible, a friend had them on his VW VR6 and they were loud as hell. I got the Toyo Proxies Z1 and they are a better tire than the FZ4's.

The Z1's are a true Ultra High Performance Tire and on the track they hook best 60' time so far is a 1.68

Josip,
The FZ4's are loud? Can you explain a little please? I know they're quieter than my Hakka's ... but i don't hear any noise from them (that i can identify).

I looked at the Z1's but they are almost double in price, and i hear they ride pretty hard. I think the FZ4's are hard enough for me..

Anyone know of a tire publication that might be good for evaluating tires?

Tire Rack has a pretty good site. http://www.tirerack.com

Hope this helps.

Ghislain.

Guys, I dont know about you, but tire loudness dosn't consern me. Its all about performance. I may not have the resourses you guys have or quite the mods, but im trying. But the thing with the tire noise, my exhaust is so loud I would never hear it.

------------------
Need For Speed

The Proxes Z1's are also a dedicated, high wear performance summer tire, not to be compared with the FZ4.

Martin: It's hard to find an objective tire comparison anywhere. TireRack's is good, but they're limited in the types of cars and drivers that they get feedback from. There's a good Tire FAQ by Luis Haddock on the DSM site that gives you a good lowdown.

Aaron: The thing with tire noise, is that it tells you exactly what the tire is doing. From a true high-performance tire, you won't hear a thing...until you're sliding across the track backwards. It means that the tire has reached the limits of controllable adhesion. The FZ4 has a nice tread on it, but it's loudness indicates a harder compound, which means poorer performance. The BF/Goodrich VR4 is a similar tire, but only starts to squeal when really pushed. Both are the same price, and both have treadwear ratings of over 300. Like you say, if I had resources, I'd BUY a 140-200 wear tire just to have the fun of being held to the asphalt with magnets. I don't have that kind of money, though.

But that's why I'm pricing out the Kumho ECSTA 712's!!! 225/50R16's!!! Someone get OFF their duffs and either call them and get me a price, or at least the contact number of a dealer that has them!!! (:

I stand corrected.

[This message has been edited by Aaron Loney (edited July 05, 2000).]

OK, I'll phone a local shop here in town. I "think" they "might" be able to order them.

Will post tomorrow.

Ghislain.

Ok just phone a local theif. He's asking $140 each installed and balanced and $130 not installed.

Maybe somebody else could ask an other tire shop to price the same (225 50 16 ECSTA 712) so we could compare prices!!!???!!!
Guess the 711 that went for was a good buy (discontinued)

BTW I just went over some post (same topic) and Martha was priced the same, $141...

Hope this helps.

Ghislain.


[This message has been edited by Ghislain Goudreau (edited July 06, 2000).]

Thanks much, Ghislain. I suppose even with shipping in it'll come out to around $150 a tire or so...

So I just have to decide between the Kumho or the BFG VR4's. Have to see how Marta likes hers...

Don't get the BFGoodrich VR4. I had them on my AWD and they're absolutely crappy in dry
or wet. Get the Kumho's pronto. I'll post
a tire comparison between the Kumho's and
Toyo's when I get my AWD on the road this
month. Keep in mind that the FZ4's are on the FWD and the 711's are on the AWD. The
Toyo's BTW are much quieter than the stock
Goodyear GT+4's that were replaced 2 summers
back. The noise difference was the first thing I noticed after driving with the FZ4's.

Err, I owned the VR4's as well in the stock 205/55R16 size. I was rather impressed with them. Good wear, really good performance for the price (especially while you're getting used to a car, very forgiving), and decent traction in messy weather.

They're no Dunlop SP9000, but then they're not $300 a tire, either. (:

Hey Boys and Girls!!!

I'll start by asking if anybody has any feedback on Michelin Pilot XGT H4 and V4??? Could get them for the same price as the Kumho...

Here is some info that might be interesting, got it on the Talon Digest, today's first post.

Goes like this;

I recently bought these tires, too, in a 205/55 ZR16 - $74 each. I got mine
from Tire Rack, instead. The Z-rated tires have a wear rating of 280, as
opposed to the 320 wear rating of the V-rated Kumho's, if I remember
correctly.

These tires are awesome. They handle well (have a real stiff sidewall),
exhibit very little road noise, look great, and have worked real well for me
in the rain. I pretty much agree with what wass said before, but just have one
complaint. The actual width of the tire (contact patch) is noticeably
thinner than other 205-size tires, more like a 195. I've heard others
complain about this too, with other sizes of Kumho street tires. If I had
to do it again, I'd probably get the 215/55 tire instead.

I've only used these tires for daily driving only, with no hard launches on
them yet, so I can't really give any details as far as auto-xing or drag
racing go. But I definitely recommend them, especially considering the
prices.

-End of post-

Lets keep the topic going!!!

The Instigator!!! LOL



[This message has been edited by Ghislain Goudreau (edited July 07, 2000).]

It is getting rather huge. (:

My brother has XGT V4's in a 195/60R15 size on his Civic SiR, and I thought they SUCKED. That sentiment is echoed by most Honda/Acura owners out there. They're decent, but not really all that great for the price.

Could you be more specific??? What caracteristic(s) gave them this low rating???

Lack of traction (dry and/or wet pavement), noisy, treadwear???


Ghislain.

With just a quick look at those Michelins it's easy to tell they're not a summer performance tire. The tread blocks are tiny.

Besides, they're an old design. And you always pay alot for the Michelin name.

------------------
Fast & Awesome Handling
'90 AWD
$h!tbox

In regards to the Michelin tires be advised that they have changed lately. they still keep the XGT *4 moniker but the new style carries the Pilot name beforehand. Ghislain mine are the Pilot XGT H4 and you have had a chance to feel how they hook up. I also had the plain XGT H4 on the car and the diffeence is night and day. The tires on the SiR use a different tread pattern similar to the older XGT's and I have also found that the Pilot series makes two different tread patterns in the v-rated tire, one using the old style XGT tread pattern similar to the BF Goodrich (kinda looks like fat v's turned sideways and the new style whick are an all weather directional style tread.

I think the Pilot's are a different (and more expensive) line of the same tires.

Yeah, they are quiet and predictable, but nothing more than that. Their dry traction wasn't performance oriented, and their wet traction got dicey as speeds increased as well.

Hey Tim!

Glad you steped in. Remember if you ever find your car on blocks... ( For the Trenton outsiders; Tim lives 5 min from my door step...). I think he got good rubbers, tire that will be for you perverts.

I did asked Sears (Don't shoot me, my wife was shoping and I had to get away...) and they had a sale on gumballs, so I asked how much for 205 55 16 Michelin Pilot "something". Price was $135 that was at 40% off... Buddy (Sales person) told me they have falls sales at 55% off. Put it this way it sounds very interesting to me...

Again my goal in life (Tire Quest) is to get a set of gumballs with stiffer side walls than what I got now (Not hard to beat at all), with a higher speed rating so I don't have to sh!t in my pants every time I get above "Sweet" crusing speed... I'm not to consern about wear as long as they last two seasons... Traction is good too although I don't mind a little control oversteer when cornering (Keep in mind my car is a NT FWD...), understeer always manageable as long as you got a good heart...

One last observation I made; Pretty much every were I phone/ask the price is between 125 to 140 good old bucks which is within my butget.

At last, glad to see that steeming topic going strong. Guess this is what this UBB is all about!!!

Keep on rocking Dudes.

Ghislain.

Talon Digest Take Two!!!

Goes like this;

The Kumho ECSTA Supra 712s seem to be a big hit. I recently replaced my out of
round and hard compounded Eagle GT IIs with the new Kumhos. I really love the
improved handling and wet weather traction. I got the 205/55/16s and although
they do "look" like they are skinnier, they have still far surpassed my
expectations.

When running my Eagles, I had to run about 32 psi in them to control
wheelspin on the Dragstrip. Last week I ran at the local track here and with
the tires @ 40psi, I was still able to muster up a 1.781 60 foot time on my
all stock suspension.

They are absoloutley priced right, they feel right, they look right. Time
will tell how they last.

I think I'm leaning towards these Kumho's. I know OK Tire in Ontario et all sells them, but we don't have any of those in Nova Scotia. Any other shops?

Try Andy's Tire shop in Kingston; 765-6348 He ordered a few different brand of rubber for a few freinds while I was there. That was seven years ago!!!

Ghislain.

I know Andy's, never had any work done there, though. I wonder how much of a premium the tire shops here would charge for a special order like that... *Shudder*

I tried calling OK Tire (Bronson in Ottawa) and they quoted me $189 for the Kumho ECSTA 712. Marta mentioned $141. hmmmmm.....

Also that number for Andy's Tire in Kingston is a fax line. Anyone know the phone number?

Can anyone help me find those balloons for ~$140 in either Kingston or Ottawa? Thx

------------------
Fast & Awesome Handling
'90 AWD
$h!tbox

Heh, there's an Andy's tire shop in Kingston, N.S., which just happens to have the same 765 prefix. Odd... (:

The earlier post was going from memory, I was out by $6 on the 225/50R16 size, they'd originally told me $147.

But I called today to find out if they were available yet, and apparently they are now in stock in their Ontario warehouses. But now the price is $9/tire more than what they'd said a month ago. Install & balance is included, mind you, but still, it's not good business to change the quoted price.

There is another thing, those sizes come in 2 speed ratings, Z (to 149 mph) and W (to 168 mph), and obviously the W-rated tire is going to be more expensive than the Z-rated tire. Better get that clear when you are talking to the tire store sales people.

I called the place where I got a great deal on my Firehawk SZ50's last year, to see what price they could get me on the Kumhos. I'll post back when I have a price.

FWIW, the SZ50's are a great tire and I really like them. Very quiet, very responsive, very good in dry/wet (don't even *think* about snow, though ). They lasted me nearly 30K kms and still have some tread left, which is remarkable for a tire rated 220 treadwear. If you can get a good price on them, go for it!

------------------
Marta
90 Eclipse GSX
92 Talon TSi AWD
http://www.geocities.com/dsmgrrrl

Following my disgust at the sudden price hike at OK tire, I called Pneu FCP, the place where I got a great deal on my rims and SZ50s last year, to see if they could get me the Kumho's. Donald at Pneu FCP came through with great prices again. If you are within reasonable driving distance to the Montreal area, you might want to consider Pneu FCP even if it's not the Kumho's you want... Though I only asked for prices on the Kumho Supra Ecsta 712.

• The 205/55R16 (1G stock size) come in 2 flavours, $127/each for the VR-rated and $150/each for the ZR-rated.
• The 215/55R16 (2G stock size) are on back order/unavailable presently.
• The 225/50R16 (same overall diameter as the 205/55R16) are $155/each and ZR-rated only.

These prices include installation & balancing (typically $10-15/wheel elsewhere) and all taxes (GST, PST, as well as the new $3/tire surtax). This is already a ~$150-170 discount on a set of 4 by my reckoning.

In addition to that, Donald (who was also at Napierville tonight), said that if a few of us order tires they would give us some additional discount, probably the same deal as last year, when they gave 3 of us $5/tire off for buying several sets at the same time. They were not the same size nor the same brand.

I'll be ordering mine next week.

------------------
Marta
90 Eclipse GSX
92 Talon TSi AWD
http://www.geocities.com/dsmgrrrl

Marta,
The W rated tires are not as high a rating as
a Z rated tire. Z rated tires are good for
up to 300 km/hr while the V rated tires are
good for up to 249 km/hr. W rated tires fall
somewhere in between 249-300 km/hr. H rated
tires are good for up to 210 km/hr. Hope
this helps clarify this common misconception.

Doh! You're right! I've even posted the table on my website... I should've actually checked it before posting that.

------------------
Marta
90 Eclipse GSX
92 Talon TSi AWD
http://i.am/dsmgrrrl

I think she meant 'V' where she typed 'Z'. (: