OK, I want to know some of the not-so-good stuff about the various coilover setups available for 1Gs.

It was easier back in the 'old days' when Ground Control was pretty much it. But now I've heard that the Ground Control setup is of lesser quality, and can rattle. I doubt that will be a problem for me since I don't plan on autocrossing or road racing. Darko mentioned that the GC setup lock screws also tend to sieze up, which is not what I want - I want to raise & lower the car according to season.

There are also kits from Buschur, DSS, B+G, and some outfit called Dropzone. Unfortunately since the main DSM archives went offline I haven't been able to research the spring rates and such as well as I would like. I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has any experiences with these kits.

Sean, the only reason my GCs are giving me trouble is because whoever played with them last managed to strip the retaining screw (its an allen type).

Otherwise there's no rattle and no other problems. I like the fact that they're adjustable, and Im buying another set of sleeves from Tim now so I can use those and fix my current ones to sell later.

I dont have any problems with them as far as noise goes. You just have to order them for your application since they have different ones for different shocks... they work fine with my GR2s, but just like most other springs, they're very stiff and unforgiving.

With AGX they're a great setup though and I havent heard any complaints from other users. With the AGX and GCs youve got full control of your suspension as far as height and stiffness goes... a few members use this combo and on full-soft the ride ain't that bad on the street.

I recommend the Ground Controls. Just make sure you don't strip the screw and its all good.

I've got GC's and AGX's on my AWD, but since my AWD has barely been on the road since I installed them (installed in fall, in storage for winter) I can't really give a proper opinion. I can say that I have no complaints so far (if that helps at all).

Thanks for the replies, guys.

Darko, I was under the impression from your previous thread that the screw had siezed, but that was probably just my faulty memory. Are the threads stripped, or the screw heads?

Also, what are the sleeves that you are buying? Are these the lower collars? Or something else?

I guess now I could use some information on spring rates. Unfortunately I haven't managed to look through the Digest archives on this. Anybody want to toss some advice on spring rates for a 1G AWD daily driver that sees the 1/4 mile a few times a year?

Spring rates can be made to order from GC. That would require you oredering fromt hem though.

As for the stripping of the screw head... sorry Darko. It was really siezed on after the previous winter and it was tight. My bad. Sorry.

If you get the GC's make sure you spray the allen heads ocasionally with WD or lube, maybe beginning of spring and before winter.

No worries, thats what I had figured. After I replace them I'll make sure to keep them properly lubed through winter... the salt and water really kills them.

Sean, the allen holes are stripped. Im gonna fix them when I take them off.

I have eibach sportlines in my car and at the same time i put in new stock struts. It has been fine for me for the last 25k. I just hate the camber problems.

That's nice.

And that has to do with coilover setups how? :rolleyes:

Darko/Ronnie, wouldn't a little antisieze on the screws fix the problem?

And I know the spring rates can be special ordered. That doesn't help me decide what spring rates to order, though.

OK, it looks like the stock 1G AWD spring rates are 150/150. Seems some Eibach springs are about 300/300. Ground Control likes to recommend 375/250 (fr/rr) for street/autox cars, but these are considered too soft for "real" autox. DSS likes to recommend 400/350 for autox. By the time you get to 500/350 or 500/400 nobody disputes that the ride is really harsh.

Personally I'm leaning towards 325/200. Unfortunately I've only ever been in one coilover-equipped car and I don't know what rates he had.

Just wondering, why are you leaning towards having the rear springs that much softer than the fronts? The way I see it, 1st gen AWDs tend to have understeer problems... and the way to correct this (along with camber adjustments) would be to stiffen up the rear springs.

I'd do what DSS recommends, if not 400/400.

I forget what my spring rates are. As soon as I can summon the energy, I'll crawl under my AWD to check it out.

During my researches it seemed that the vast majority of coilover setups on 1Gs used softer springs in the rear. 325/200, 375/250, 400/300, 400/350, 500/350, 500/400 and 550/450 were all mentioned. I only found one example where the spring rates were equal: Farzaan Kassam ran 600/600 once. I don't know on what car or when, but 600/600 is way too stiff for a 1G, and if it was on a 2G then it doesn't really apply since 2Gs really need higher spring rates.

OTOH it seemed like the typical lowering spring setup used equal rates. Suspension Techniques springs were supposedly 400/400. Eibach Prokits were 300/300, but Eibach ERS might be different front-to-rear. None of these numbers are verified.

Also, Ground Control recommends softer springs in the rear. I don't know why.

There is also conflicting opinions on the proper setup for drag racing. Some people say to stiffen up the rear to keep the car from unloading the front wheels. This might reduce wheel hop and the potential for broken driveline parts. Other people say to keep the rear softer than the front. This increases weight transfer to the rear during the launch and improves the overall traction.

So right now I don't know what I want.

[edit]: 600/600 is way too stiff *for me* on my 1G.

Here's a silly question I should've asked earlier:

What are you using the car for?

If it's for road racing, I would really lean on a 400/400 or 500/500 setup... just because I know how much understeer is a problem with the stock suspension. I really should check my springs when I have a minute, because I find my car behaves in a neutral manner, more on the oversteer side... but my rear camber is also in a lot more than the front, so this would balance things out.

Is 350/350 an option from eibach? I'd seriously consider that or 4/4 with KYB AGXs. The rest you can fine-tune with camber... but again, this is assuming you're roadracing.

As far as drag goes, that's up in the air. I dont know enough about the dynamics to comment on this. You can use soft springs in the back and have the car squat, and shift weight to the rear... but we're 50/50 AWD, so I dont see how this matters so much. Im sure someone else can give their informed opinion.

edit: I just noticed in your original post you said you wouldnt road-race or auto-x... that leaves drag and street. Id still opt for equal rates front and back, it's just more fun with a little extra oversteer.

Not an INFORMED opinion, but I've been reading a lot of threads on suspension lately (trying to figure out what I want to do as well...)

Torque split is 50/50, BUT weight distribution (static) is 60/40. I would assume, that (for drag racing; maybe autoX as well??) you would want SOME weight transfer to get torque, AND weight as equal as posible at all four wheels. Mind you, this only applies under heavy (ie: wheelspinning) acceleration, as far as I can see.

Sean,

I really feel 325/200 is way too soft. I'm running 350/250 and i think its way too soft But don't take my word for it, if you want it done properly and to your liking, you'll probably have to crack open some books. Otherwise, you'll probably end up with either blown shocks, broken sleeves, or the usual camber/tire wear annoyances. Canadian roads suck.

I think the f/r spring rate split makes sense when you think about the weight dist of the car and what happens in a turn. The car is already 60/40 F/R, and all the weight is really being transferred to the outside F/R when you're turning. But its worse than that, because as you come into the turn (ie braking), you load up the outside front a lot more than the outside rear is ever loaded. For the high end guys though, who knows how much different their suspension has been made from stock, so in their case maybe it is okay to run really high on the rear...

In either case, good luck, and for god's sake, whatever you do, DON'T RUN GR-2's!!

Matt
92tsiAWD

Yes, I will probably not be autocrossing or road racing. Occasional drag racing. Mostly my car is my daily driver. I don't want to get a ride so hard that I don't like driving it to work. I admittedly ride the motorcycle a lot in the summer, but I don't want to have to change springs for the winter either.

That's a good point about the oversteer. I would like the car to be more neutral. The front STB helped a noticeable amount but it could use a lot more. I can't do a rear one because of pre-existing equipment in the back.

Still, even Ground Control recommends 375/250. These are apparantly too soft for real autox but I got the impression they'd be stiff enough for street use. That is about twice stock stiffness all around.

Usually I write the book. I will be using AGX shocks. And a little weight transfer during the launch is always desireable.

Also I will probably go with 7" or 8" long springs in the front and 7" in the back. Although I probably won't be autoxing I don't like the idea of Ground Control's recommended 6" front spring possibly being too short and binding. The longer spring won't bind.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can crawl under their car to tell me what spring rates they have, and their opinion on ride quality.

Well I finally crawled under my car last night. It appears I'm running 400/350. I don't recall what their free height was, but I'm almost positive they're the same all around. If I had to guess, I'd say they were 7".

The ride is essentially the same as on my FWD (where I'm running Eibach Sportlines). Stiff, certainly, but not unbearable. Both cars are strictly street machines, by the way.

The local authority says that running equal rates front and rear (like 400/400) will result in too much oversteer on our cars.

Well, I don't know if this helps at all, but with my 2G the previous owner did an AGX adjustable and the Eibach (looks like pro kit) combination and I have not been happy with the ride quality. The car is set as soft as possible, but it's just way to bouncy. Maybe I should look into the same kind of options you are Sean.

Sean, there's no such thing as too much oversteer in an AWD for the street... believe me.

If you were fine tuning your car for a strictly track setup then its another story, but this is a street car. You want it to be a fun ride, and there's nothing finer than being able to kick out the rear end at will through turns. Its not like a big torque RWD, you still retain full control of the car.

I still say you should do 350/350 or something like that... but thats just my silly opinion. Im sure you'd wanna listen to a professional instead.

C'mon Darko, you're tops in my books!

The local fellow (not a pro, just a highly dedicated amateur) runs 550/450. To paraphrase him, a 400/300 setup will be stiff without having the car feel like it's going to break in half over every speed bump. I've felt his car and it's a bit too stiff for me right now.

There is a fellow selling a 380/325 GC setup that I'm trying to score. I can try that and see how I like it. I have a feeling that it will understeer but to a lesser degree than stock. If I hate it I can switch the rears to 350 to get more oversteer, or the fronts to 400 and the rears to 300 to get less. I can't pass up these since they're a good deal. Let's just hope the adjuster screws aren't stripped!

Noah, I think your problem is that you've got the shocks set too soft. 2Gs can use much higher spring rates than 1Gs, so it's possible the Eibachs are a stiffer spring than you think. I would think that the AGXs are able to control them nevertheless, but you need to restrain the springs or else they will bounce. I'd try harder settings. Most people find 1 "click" softer in the rear than the front about right, so perhaps 3 on the front and 2 in the rear might be a good starting point. I expect on my setup I'll need the shocks set around there for starters - on your 2G you might need higher settings. (Just my $0.02.)

Sean, thanks for the advice. I'll give it a shot. I really appreciate it. Sorry for semi-hijacking your thread.

There is a good article on suspension set up and tech including figuring out spring rates etc info in Sport Compact Car, May 2001 Vol 13, #5. I can scan if anyone wants it

Sure Jerry, if it's not too much trouble, I'd love to see that article (I know I have a few issues of SCC laying around, but I don't think I have that one).

I would like to see that too, please.

I guess I must have pissed Jerry off in my <a href="http://www.ca.dsm.org/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000717">bitch thread.</a>

I'm getting the 380/325 Ground Controls, so hopefully I'll be able to let you all know how they work out sometime in the not-too-distant future. If I can figure out how to get them on the car, that is. (Yes, I'm an idiot that way.)

Oh crap ..sorry Sean i was expected an email and didnt check back right away . I will scan it this weekend

Sean I checked my front springs today and they're 350. The ride is VERY stiff.

With that being said, for a street-only car, I see no reason to go higher than 300/300.

Sorry, I couldnt check the rear ones.

I just got some G/C 500/350 to go along with Koni yellows. I have talked to G/C and they said that this set up would be little on the stiff side on the street but a killer on the track, I also have
energy suspension shock bushing and RM racing swaybars..can't wait to try it out soon..

Ha haa, GC says 500 is a "little on the stiff side" while Darko is rattling his teeth out on 350s. Just goes to show how impossible it is to judge from personal opinions. I'll have to put in my $0.02 once I get the 380/325 setup on. I expect it will take some getting used to. But they were pretty cheap!

[edit]: Paul, the 2G uses much higher spring rates than the 1G.

Damn, I cant even IMAGINE driving my car with 500s up front on the 401 or any other shitty road... that's just brutal.

The 350 is great for street driving, but when you hit the 401 in certain sections (or any other shitty highway/street) its really brutal. I go out of my way to avoid the bumps as its really bad on the bearings and joints.

Alright, my input into this discussion. Firstly, I have a 2G AWD with Skunk 2 coil overs. Secondly, they equal probably the biggest PITA to put in. First, you have to cut the old spring perches, then install these two rubber rings and a steel ring, squeeze over the threaded column, and then throw everything back on. Now, its time to adjust, time to get out the penetrating oil and a clamp if you ever want to raise or lower your fracking car.

Overall, I give these a 4/10. I hope they have a decent ride, or else someone is gunna die!

I have been in Darko's car I am sure what he has is stiff. It is WAY stiff for my liking and that is Opinion. but opinions don't count
However another thing that is not really opinion but rather fact is as he mentioned that setup is stiff for any highway, in this province at least. I really think his has the upper limit of anything before causing fast premature wearing and stress on the ENTIRE body. 500 or anything like that sound JUST NOT drivable IMHO.

I think both Darko and Nariman have problem of "Wiper coming on" on 401E Exp. around Keele

I do the 401 everyday from Kitchener to Mississauga and just after Guelph Line at the ski hill I have to put up with my teeth chattering. However, I have to admit I know where all the bad spots are now and it must look funny when I change lanes at what appears to be random times, but really I'm just avoiding holes or big dips.

Sean I adjusted my car to 3 in the front and 2 in the back and it's pretty bad around town. I'm going to try 4 and 3 next. But I need some warm weather to see what it is really like. This cold stuff just kills my suspension.

Amin, the 2Gs routinely use much stiffer springs than 1Gs. 1Gs start roughly at 300 lb/in and go up to about 500, while 2G start much closer to 500 and go up from there (as far as I can tell). So you're not comparing the same things here.

Having said that the local autoxer does have 500s on his 1G. But he admits they're not very streetable. The reviews on 400/300 setups are usually positive.

Hey Sean was that article i emailed you of any use? Or too much on the rally side for your liking. I should have some time this weekend to clean it up into a text file with my scanner and OCR.

To ressurect an old thread, I have the Ground Controls on my car now. 380 front, 325 rear, with KYB AGX shocks. These are all used parts so there is no break-in to worry about. The car has been lowered about 1".

Overall I'm quite happy with this setup. I find it fairly stiff but quite bearable, unless I'm tired. I'm sure my girlfriend thinks the car is less comfortable than before, although I don't think she knows why.

Initially I had the AGXs set to 2 in front and 4 in rear. This gave nice handling and made the car much more neutral than it was before, but the rear was too hard for comfort. Turning it down to 2/3 pretty much fixed that. Knob adjustment on the back is a really nice thing to have.

Even 2 front, 3 rear seemed kind of hard to me for the first couple of days. Then I hopped on my CBR600 for a day, and went back to the car the day after. Nothing like riding on a sportbike to make your "uncomfortably hard" car suspension feel nice and smooth. :-) It's something of an illusion but it just goes to show everything is relative when it comes to suspension comfort.

So far I'm happy with the ride. It reminds me of the 5-series I got a ride in last year - sporty stiff, but not uncomfortable (for the most part). The 5-series has better seats than the Talon, though. I may try 1 front 2 rear for general travelling if I can't get used to the current settings.

The handling is quite good - not as good as with the rears set stiffer, but much better than before. Understeer has been reduced but not eliminated. If I were to race the car I'd try 2/4 or 3/5 settings. I can't imagine what 8/8 would be like.

When you do this you'll hear lots of rattles and squeaks from your car. You'll just have to live with them.

In retrospect I wish I'd been able to get the Tein (sp?) setup with the cockpit adjustable settings. There have already been times when I wished I could turn the suspension down (or up) depending on how I feel and how spirited I want to drive the car.

Anyway, hope someone else finds this useful.

Thanks for the update Sean, I will be installing 350/300 with AGX's in a couple monthes. Cant wait

Does anyone have the dimmensions of the springs for the GC setup. I am pretty sure the inside diameter is 2.5" but how about the unloaded lengths?

Reason being, I have a cheapy coilover setup on my 1G right now that was designed for a 5th gen Prelude. The ride is harsh, but my concern is that the rear springs are 9" long and even at the lowest setting the car sits just under the stock height. I wouldn't even want to guess the rates, but they are probably around 500.

Long story short, I need to replace the rear springs, but I need the length. I am considering getting them from here http://www.mmrusa.com/s2springs.htm

Any help is appreciated.

They're 6" i think. I'm too lazy to go outside and jack up the car to check right now. Maybe later