I'm looking to upgrade my stock suspension on my 95 Talon TSi AWD this spring. I want to try AutoX but my car will also remain a daily driver.

I am looking to use Koni Sports, and Eibach Pro springs. I've noticed that the Koni application guide lists the same shocks for the rear on the FWD and AWD cars. I've called Koni, and they stated this was correct and the weight difference didn't matter for the shocks specified (8041-1208Sport). Anyone using these shocks (FWD or AWD) have any feedback they could give me, or any general suspension tips?

FYI - Car mods include
Ported 16G
Ported Ex. Mani and O2 sensor hsng
2.5" Turbo back (w high flow cat)
MBC (set to 16 lbs)
Fuel Pump
Upper IC pipe and 1G BOV
Cone Filter
Front & Rear strut bars
ACT 2100 clutch and Braded line
Powerslot front rotors and braded lines(all 4)

thnks

I don't have any experience with the Koni's but my 1G was equipped with KYB AGX's that was used for auto X, a friend of mine with a 2G does have the Koni's, felt that the adjustment range of the KYB's was a litte larger. I am redoing the suspension on my 2G this spring as well, I am looking at the Tokiko Illumina's.
L&R Racing in BC has them on sale right now,
Tokico Illumina:
2G spring & shock kits, $750
2G Illuminas, AWD or FWD, $610 (shocks only)

For the 2G, Koni Sports are the best compromise between performance and price. They have shorter shock bodies which allows for more suspension travel. This is especially important when you lower your car.

You mentioned Eibach lowering springs... While they may provide an improvement over your current stock set-up, I think you'll ultimately find that they are too softly sprung for AutoX competition. You'd be much better off with Ground control coil-overs. They use a generic 2.5" ID spring that can be had in just about every spring rate / length conceivable. This gives you infinite adjustability not only in ride height, but also spring stiffness. This adjustability is very important when trying find the balance between a low center of gravity and keeping the car off the bumpstops. Lowering springs typically lower the car too much and are not stiff enough to keep the car off the bumpstop in turns and under braking, especially if you run a sticky tire. Most DSM AutoXers who start with lowering springs eventually end up replacing them with coil-overs for these reasons. Something to consider...

Also... You may already know this, but there's a web site loaded with info about running a DSM in AutoX. It's aimed more at the SCCA, but the set-up info is still relevant to us. Check it out at : http://autox.dsm.org

And I'd also highly recommend you subscribe to the DSM AutoX mailing list. It is an excellent source of information for suspension and engine setups specific to autocrossing or roadracing. I've learned more from that list than any other source. You can subscribe here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dsm-autox/

Hope this helps, and welcome to the sport!

Thanks for the links Scott, the site was pretty informative. Although I do not think I am quite that serious yet. I do not foresee myself changing springs to get the proper rate, and running 255ish tires (my current ones are 224/45/17s). I'm not looking to win at AutoX, but just have fun thrashing the car in a legal setting.

But just so I know, what would a GC coilover package (with one full set of springs) go for?

I'm not sure about Canadian sources, but a lot of people have been buying their suspension stuff through www.shox.com . They seem to have pretty good prices, and ship Konis for free. For example:

• 2G Koni Sport Shocks: US $543.20
• Ground Control Coil Over Kit: US $399.00
  Total: US $942.20
  
  -OR-
• 2G Koni Sports and Eibach Pro-kit spring package: US $679.00

Personally, I'd pay the extra US $263.20 for the coil-overs. Here's why...

The Pro-kit are advertised as being approximately 20% stiffer than stock. The stock spring rates of a 97 AWD are 246 lbs/in front and 151 lbs/in rear. 20% stiffer works out to approx 295 F / 181 R.

Sounds fine until you realize that most DSMs with GC oil-overs run 500 F (203% stiffer) / 400 R (265% stiffer). This may sound extreme, but I assure you it's not. In fact, even at 500 F, it's still too soft. Most people stop there because that's the maximum spring rate that Koni shocks can handle. But the really fast DSMers in the SCCA run pricey high-end shocks with up to 900 lbs/in spring in the front. Why so stiff? Because that's what they need to keep off the bumpstops when running big sticky tires.

So while 20% stiffer is an improvement, it might leave you wanting more when used in competition. If cost is an issue, you could always buy used. I just picked up a set of used Koni Sport shocks, Ground Control coil-overs, and Eibach ERS springs all for less than it would cost to buy new shocks alone.

In the end, the decision is yours. I'm just offering some food for thought, based on the collective experiences of the DSM-AutoX community.

Be careful, though, because even though a lot of the US websites will ship for free, you still have to cover the brokerage fees, duties, and taxes when the stuff crosses the border. You could get a VERY nasty surprise when the goods arrive! Those Canadian dollar prices a few posts up looked pretty darned good!!

Thanks again for the info Scott.
FYI the spring rates you gave were for the FWD. The AWD stock is slightly different (265/162) but basically the same.
As far as the components go, price is always important, but I've been using ExtremeMotorsports as a guide (worst case) for pricing. The Koni Sports with Eibach Pro springs would come in at 850 USD (150/koni + 250 for Eibach). So while the 679 price is awesome in comparison, the 942 isn't out of the picture either. The main reason I would look at the GC coil overs is so I could put some height back in my car for the winter months (and future racing considerations ). Being in Winnipeg, we get lots of snow so I am kind of worried about winter clearance. As far as the spring rates go, I would probably still go with a softer spring (maybe as high as 400 Max up front), and adjust the shocks stiffer for AutoX.

Have you installed your springs and shocks you mentioned? What rate spring did you get and what do you use your car for?

Ziggy: the hidden costs is a very good point. I've ordered most of my parts through the US, so I am painfully aware of those costs. Back when the CDN dollar was at 62ish cents US, a good rule of thumb was to double the US cost to figure out the final cost to your door. With the stronger dollar it will be better, but still not that great.

-edit- One last thought about coil overs. Do you need to do a 4 wheel alignment every time you raise or lower your car?

No, I have not installed my Koni / GC set-up yet. I just received it a few weeks ago and plan to wait until spring.

I chose to go with the above mentioned 500 F / 400 R spring rates, based on the experience & recommendations of many other DSMers who have experimented with different spring rates.

My car is a daily driver that is used year-round. I run it in auto-X at both the regional and national level, and have recently started participating in winter rally-X events. I also take to the occasional track event (i.e. solo 1 / time trials).

And yes, your alignment settings are affected by changes in ride height. So if you raise it back up in the winter, you’ll need to do an alignment or risk premature tire wear. But setting your alignment is relatively simple to do yourself. Here’s a page describing how make your own alignment rack: http://www.wincom.net/trog/alignment_rack.html

Originally, I was planning to run my car at the same ride height year-round. I don’t plan to drop it very low, and am pretty confident that the AWD can pull it through pretty much anything winter can throw at it. However, now that I’ve taken up winter rally-X, I definitely need the extra ride height and those 500 F / 400 R springs would be awfully harsh for the typical courses we run. So I may end up swapping the stock springs back on each winter, or buy a second set of softer springs for the GC kit. In either case, I’ll be doing the alignment myself using a homemade alignment rack.

That home-made alignment rack is great for measuring toe, but what about camber? Isn't that the biggest issue when raising/lowering a vehicle?

Greg

This is a common misconception. Toe is actually your biggest concern when raising/lowering a 2G DSM. At least from a tire-wear perspective.

When you change your ride height, your static toe settings change as well. For optimal tire-wear, you want the tires pointing straight ahead, or zero toe. Any toe in/out will cause the tires to scrub sideways (to an extent) and greatly accelerate your tire-wear.

Assuming you have toe set to zero, then camber is not a significant factor. As long as your tire is pointing straight ahead, it’ll wear the same amount whether it’s completely vertical, or slightly leaning to the inside. The only difference will be where it wears on the contact patch, but the actual wear-rate will essentially be the same.

Now from a performance perspective, you want as much front negative camber as you can get. Due to the 2G front suspension geometry, you’ll never get too much negative camber from lowering the car. So camber correction kits are not necessary in the front, unless you’re trying to get *more* negative camber.

However, the rear is another story. Here you’ll gain excessive negative camber from lowering, so you’ll need something to correct it. There are some kits available, but most people just get some longer bolts and use washers as spacers behind the rear upper control arms. This method works just fine, and costs next to nothing.

So to answer your question, yes we need to be concerned with camber but only in the rear and only initially. Once you’ve determined how many washers you need to achieve your desired rear camber settings, you’ll never need to visit an alignment shop again. Take the washers out when you raise it, put them back in with you lower it, and readjust your toe to zero using your homemade alignment rack.


Note that some people may actually want some toe-out for better turn-in & steering response in competition. Here’s a simple tire-saving solution... while swapping on your race wheels/tires at the event, simply adjust your toe settings. Then after the event, set them back to zero. With your homemade alignment rack, you can predetermine how many turns of the adjustment nut are required to achieve your desired toe-out. You could even mark its street / race positions with a paint marker for easy adjustment.

Hope this helps,

I have the Koni sport with G/C 500f/350r with rm swaybars and the car is amazing,

Awesome info Scott.. thanks once again I was always under the assumption that negative camber would cause excessive wear on the inside of the tire.

I currently have the longer bolts and washers on the rear of my car and when I had it aligned the alignment tech told me I needed front camber correction as well but from reading what you wrote I probably won't bother now. One of my rear toe adjusters is apparently siezed as well so i'll have to address that soon too because it's out of spec right now.

Greg

Well, it will wear the inside of the tire... But if you have your toe set to zero, then it will not wear any faster than if you had the camber set to zero.


No, don’t bother. You’ll want the extra performance of negative camber for autoxing. As long as you keep your toe set to zero, alignment-induced tire wear should not be a problem.

I have the exact same problem. My driver’s side rear toe adjuster is seized within the rubber bushing. When they try to turn the cam, the whole bushing twists with it. As soon as you release it, it pops back to its original position.

Some day I gonna crawl under there with a can of Liquid Wrench and work at it until it breaks free. If anyone has any other suggestions, I’m all ears.

This is my plan as well once I get the car out of storage.. hopefully this will free her up. I don't want to have to replace any suspension components!

Greg