Brake upgrades
#184306
June 01, 2006 05:22 pm UTC
June 01, 2006 05:22 pm UTC
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Mike Jackson
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Hey guys. Does anyone want to give me thier 2 cents on front brake upgrade options?
I am thinking about the $1000 kits like Baer and Wilwood that include calipers, rotors and pads.
But for $700 US more there's the StopTech kit. I am not willing to consider anything beyond that price range at all.
I drive my car on the street 8 months a year putting on 3,000 kms or so a year. I drag race only a few times a year.
But now I want to start a little road coarse racing as well. I will probably do this only once maybe twice a year though.
Will the Wilwood or Baer package be enough? Or do I really need to step up to the StopTech.
Or is even a good rotor and pad upgrade good enough to have some fun at a road coarse once a year?
Also there is the 13" Mustang Cobra Brembo upgrade I've seen. Where does this one fit in performance wise? Better then the Wilwood or Baer but not as good as the StopTech? Does anyone know how to source these calipers fairly cheaply?
1998 AWD 12.1@122 421whp -SOLD Duck Dodgers = EPIC FAILZ!
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184308
June 01, 2006 06:20 pm UTC
June 01, 2006 06:20 pm UTC
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Mike Jackson
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Well perhaps just a rotor upgrade with decent pads will do. I'm going to be racing some damn fast cars at the track so I know I'll be pushing the car pretty good . So let's hear some thoughts on: 1)Larger rotors with decent pads and SS lines 2)Wilwood/Baer/Cobra caliper/rotor/pad kit 3)StopTech kit (probably overkill) I'm leaning towards a Nick Boers Cobra kit. He was suppose to make one for me but I never heard back . So if anyone knows where to source the calipers cheap let me know (I'm not an Ebay guy... but I looked on Ebay and they aren't cheap).
1998 AWD 12.1@122 421whp -SOLD Duck Dodgers = EPIC FAILZ!
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184313
June 01, 2006 07:35 pm UTC
June 01, 2006 07:35 pm UTC
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Rob Strelecki
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Front brakes upgraded to Mustang GT ('94-'04) dual piston calipers (PBR), and 300M rotors (stock, 11.7"). They're mounted with an adapter bracket and a hub-centric ring. The calipers accept the 2G banjo fittings. 17" rims are likely the minimum. It did not cost much more than $400, all said and done. These are an obscene improvement over stock DSM brakes. I could not even imagine the Cobra kit!
1993 Eagle Talon TSi FWD 13.8 @ 106 :::: 14.1 @ 117
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184314
June 01, 2006 08:20 pm UTC
June 01, 2006 08:20 pm UTC
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Mike Jackson
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Hook me up Nick. Are you going to Yorkdale Sunday? If so I might just have to make the journey.
1998 AWD 12.1@122 421whp -SOLD Duck Dodgers = EPIC FAILZ!
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184320
June 01, 2006 10:57 pm UTC
June 01, 2006 10:57 pm UTC
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,832 Toronto, On, Canada
Dave Dziarmaga
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Go with the cobra calipers Mike, you wont regret it.
1993 Talon TSi AWD, if in doubt, increase boost. I've got a fever, and the only perscription is more cowbell! -Bruce Dickenson for sale: my talon
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184322
June 02, 2006 03:14 am UTC
June 02, 2006 03:14 am UTC
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,196 Newmarket, Ontario
Daren Peacock
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Mike, might be abit to late, but I have to say the Wilwood Dynapro setup that I'm running works amazing. Seatbelts defently come into play on hard stops . I got the complete setup from Todd at TCE, which ran me $900 US total (12.2" 2 piece slotted & directionally vented rotors, 4 piston calipers,SS lines & polymatrix Q pads) as I upgraded the rotor that came in the kit. They have amazing customer service and can make a kit to fit all your needs.
98 Eclipse GSX DSM82HTA
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184323
June 02, 2006 01:20 pm UTC
June 02, 2006 01:20 pm UTC
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Mike Jackson
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Daren, did the rotor hats fit or did you have to grind them out a bit on a lathe to get it to fit flush? The Wilwoods use to have this problem anyway, not sure if they ever fixed it.
1998 AWD 12.1@122 421whp -SOLD Duck Dodgers = EPIC FAILZ!
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184326
June 02, 2006 02:08 pm UTC
June 02, 2006 02:08 pm UTC
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Nick Boers
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Not that it matters for Mike, with 3000km per year but do those wilwoods have dust seals on the pistons? I know many wilwoods don't. The BAER setup that looks like the cobras does so because it's the same caliper and rotor (they even say ford on them). The Cobras, the Wilwoods and the Brembos i'm running will all put the seatbelts to serious work. The brakes will easily outrun the speedometer to 0 Pedal feel on the Cobras is good and stiff. The GT's feel somewhat squishy. The brembos are solid like a rock, the pedal barely moves. Braking force is controlled by pedal presure, not travel. It makes for consistent "hell-toe" downshifting because the pedal is always in the same place no matter how hard you're braking. The 16" wheels i had for the winter were steel 5-spokes. They LOOKED like an aluminum wheel till you got close. I recall the guy at steelcase (wehre i got them) saying they used them for all the IS300s that the dealer sent over for snows. They cleared the GT brakes and the Brembos i have now. I don't think they will clear the Cobras though.
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184327
June 02, 2006 02:37 pm UTC
June 02, 2006 02:37 pm UTC
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Joined: Aug 2003
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Daren Peacock
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Originally posted by Nick Boers: Not that it matters for Mike, with 3000km per year but do those wilwoods have dust seals on the pistons? I know many wilwoods don't.
Most of the Wilwood calipers don't come with rubber boots but yes the dynapro calipers that I have are boosted. You can get them booted or unbooted with SS pistons, for more of a track setup. With that said, I'm not sure the unbooted calipers are much of an issue. Out of all the unbooted kits that TCE has sold, they said they have only had about 2 that failed and this was after many years of use, in winter/salt conditions as well.
98 Eclipse GSX DSM82HTA
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184329
June 28, 2006 12:54 pm UTC
June 28, 2006 12:54 pm UTC
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Mike Jackson
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I've got Cobra parts on order. I'm going to try and find a good performance pad. I am leaning towards Porterfield R4-S pads.
Anyone know where to pick up some DOT approved SS lines?
1998 AWD 12.1@122 421whp -SOLD Duck Dodgers = EPIC FAILZ!
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184331
June 30, 2006 12:50 am UTC
June 30, 2006 12:50 am UTC
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Mike Jackson
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I got them from a local jobber in town here. He's family so I got his cost. Calipers and rotors came to about $400 after tax. You can get the calieprs for $225 US or so in the states but then there's the exchange and you need shipping and maybe border charges etc. So I might have save $20 that way but I'd rather just pick stuff up. I ordered the Hawk HP Plus pads from a local performance shop and they might be in by tomorrow. I am getting a full set of SS lines off Ziggy and the brackets and rings off Nick on Sunday. These damn rotors are huge (13.1") . I just can't see how this setup is going to clear my 17" rims. Motul 600 the recommended fluid? I'll put pics up of the install.
1998 AWD 12.1@122 421whp -SOLD Duck Dodgers = EPIC FAILZ!
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184332
June 30, 2006 01:49 am UTC
June 30, 2006 01:49 am UTC
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,832 Toronto, On, Canada
Dave Dziarmaga
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These things barely clear my avenger rims.
1993 Talon TSi AWD, if in doubt, increase boost. I've got a fever, and the only perscription is more cowbell! -Bruce Dickenson for sale: my talon
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184334
June 30, 2006 02:55 pm UTC
June 30, 2006 02:55 pm UTC
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Mike Jackson
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I have Konig Sub Zeros. Guess I'll find out after I install one. I have a 5 point harness for the track .
1998 AWD 12.1@122 421whp -SOLD Duck Dodgers = EPIC FAILZ!
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184335
July 02, 2006 10:23 pm UTC
July 02, 2006 10:23 pm UTC
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Mike Jackson
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Unfortunately Nick was out of the centering rings for the rotors.
Does anyone know where to get these or have the ability to make them?
Nick can you share what specs you know for them?
I need this setup installed in less then 3 weeks now. This is the only peice missing.
Thanks.
1998 AWD 12.1@122 421whp -SOLD Duck Dodgers = EPIC FAILZ!
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184339
July 04, 2006 08:47 pm UTC
July 04, 2006 08:47 pm UTC
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Mike Jackson
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Let's see if I understand what this ring is correctly. It is a metal ring of the same or similar thickness as the rotor where it mates to the hub. It sits on the hub and the inside of the ring sit snug against the part of the hub that sticks out and the stock rotor hole fits against. The ring fills the gap between this surface and where the larger Cobra rotor hole is.
This would keep the rotor centered and fixed. Otherwise there would be some slop (very bad) and stress on the studs.
So if this is the case the ring should be made of a durable metal (suggestions), a very simple ring shape with no other features (holes etc) and be of the same thickness of the rotor or a little less?
Pretty much a hub centric ring for the rotor to the hub as oppossed to the wheel to the hub.
1998 AWD 12.1@122 421whp -SOLD Duck Dodgers = EPIC FAILZ!
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184341
July 04, 2006 11:02 pm UTC
July 04, 2006 11:02 pm UTC
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Ziggy Dietrich
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Ok, sounds like you have an OD and an ID, sounds like aluminum is good enough, and they don't need any holes in them. Now get me a thickness and I should be able to make you a set....
"bluebird" worlds fastest scooter ridden by me "Whitebird" RIP
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184343
July 05, 2006 02:13 am UTC
July 05, 2006 02:13 am UTC
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Ziggy Dietrich
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Nick, let me know what sort of tolerances, and how thick, and how many you would want....
These would be a very THIN walled ring according to those sizes. 2.638ID, 2.800 OD. = .081 wall. Does that sound right to you??
"bluebird" worlds fastest scooter ridden by me "Whitebird" RIP
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184346
July 05, 2006 12:43 pm UTC
July 05, 2006 12:43 pm UTC
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Mike Jackson
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I just measured about ~70.2mm. I will double check that again.
1998 AWD 12.1@122 421whp -SOLD Duck Dodgers = EPIC FAILZ!
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184347
July 05, 2006 02:50 pm UTC
July 05, 2006 02:50 pm UTC
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Mike Jackson
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Good thing I double checked. The actual measured diameter I am getting on the rotor I have is 71.17~71.22mm (approx 2.800").
So I little under that should work.
1998 AWD 12.1@122 421whp -SOLD Duck Dodgers = EPIC FAILZ!
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184348
July 05, 2006 06:28 pm UTC
July 05, 2006 06:28 pm UTC
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Ziggy Dietrich
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Ok, I will get these done, but can't promise for before the weekend..hope that is OK?? So, to confirm, I am doing 2.795 - 2.799OD, 2.640 - 2.645 ID, and .190 - .200 thick??
"bluebird" worlds fastest scooter ridden by me "Whitebird" RIP
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184349
July 05, 2006 06:41 pm UTC
July 05, 2006 06:41 pm UTC
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Mike Jackson
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I just measured the Cobra rotor thickness there at 7.22mm (0.2845"). So 0.200" would fit no problem.
1998 AWD 12.1@122 421whp -SOLD Duck Dodgers = EPIC FAILZ!
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184352
July 09, 2006 01:14 pm UTC
July 09, 2006 01:14 pm UTC
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Posts: 4,971 Beamsville, Ont, Canada
Steve Kinnaird
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Just to "jump in" about other options:
What options are there that fit under a stock 1G 16" rim.
If I stick with those wheels, am I limited to the stock dual-piston calipers/rotors?
Now, I'll have all kinds of time to talk about DSMs, because I won't be busy fixing mine!
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184354
July 15, 2006 12:44 am UTC
July 15, 2006 12:44 am UTC
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Posts: 4,971 Beamsville, Ont, Canada
Steve Kinnaird
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Thanks, Nick. I found an old post of yours saying the same thing, so they're already on there.
I REALLY need to replace that 13/16" master though. Would a 15/16" be worth putting in? (I've got one sitting in the garage) Or should I just get the 1" ?
Now, I'll have all kinds of time to talk about DSMs, because I won't be busy fixing mine!
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184356
July 15, 2006 12:54 am UTC
July 15, 2006 12:54 am UTC
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2,787 Pickering, ON
Nick Boers
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The non-ABS cars have 15/16, and the ABS cars have 1". I don't know where the 13/16" comes from. Of course, i don't have CAPS running, and i've had a lot of wine The 3G Eclipse uses a 17/16 and it bolts up to the booster. You'll have to make new lines to the prop. valve though, but it's not hard. I put one in when i went to the Porsche brembos. The larger master will make the pedal stiffer, and reduce the travel required. You'll be pressing harder, but the pedal will move less. With the 17/16 and the Brembos (which are super stiff calipers) the pedal is rock solid. Once the pads touch the rotors it barely moves at all no matter how hard you push. It makes blipping the throttle with the side of the foot under brakin verhy consistent because the two pedals are always in the same spot relative to eachother. www.car-part.com to search wreckers for them.
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184357
July 15, 2006 01:49 am UTC
July 15, 2006 01:49 am UTC
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Posts: 4,971 Beamsville, Ont, Canada
Steve Kinnaird
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I haven't actually LOOKED yet (I've never take it out of the car) but I believe 90's came with a 13/16.
Looking at caps, the 89.3-90.6 cars DO have a seperate PN for the master.
I'll try the 15/16" and see how I like it.
The pedal travel is what I DON'T like, with the way it currently is.
Now, I'll have all kinds of time to talk about DSMs, because I won't be busy fixing mine!
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184360
July 16, 2006 03:33 pm UTC
July 16, 2006 03:33 pm UTC
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Joined: Jan 1970
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Steve Kinnaird
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Turns out my car came with a 15/16" master, so I can't confirm that the 13/16" were ever put on early models.
(Luckily I used a mirror, instead of removing it to find out!)
So, looks like I might try to squish in a 17/16" afterall.
Now, I'll have all kinds of time to talk about DSMs, because I won't be busy fixing mine!
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184362
July 17, 2006 10:45 pm UTC
July 17, 2006 10:45 pm UTC
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Mike Jackson
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Finally installing these. Nick you said keep the right bracket on the right and the left bracket on the left but switch the calipers right?
Should the calipers sit higher or lower in the arc then the stock ones?
Also what should I do with the dust sheild. Is it okay just to remove it?
Actually I think on the safety form for the track it said "Dust sheild cut or removed." Does that mean they want it removed or I fail if it's removed?
1998 AWD 12.1@122 421whp -SOLD Duck Dodgers = EPIC FAILZ!
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184363
July 18, 2006 01:33 am UTC
July 18, 2006 01:33 am UTC
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Mike Jackson
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Can someone who's done this mod dumb it down for me.
First off the spacer Nick mentioned needs to go between the two brackets is it really 0.4"... that's 10mm. That seems big to me. If that is right am I suppose to just use a bunch of washers?
Next could someone explain how the brackets go on. I go the pins at the top, bleeder at the top part.
1) So does the Boer's bracket adapter bolt to the back side or the rotor side? 2) Once that's in place does the caliper bracket go on the back side of it or the rotor side of it?
FYI you will need to buy 8 M12 bolts to bolt the brackets up.
Any help would be appreciated. I am also taking some pics to help anyone else through the process. Quick responses would be great as I need this installed asap.
1998 AWD 12.1@122 421whp -SOLD Duck Dodgers = EPIC FAILZ!
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184364
July 18, 2006 01:57 am UTC
July 18, 2006 01:57 am UTC
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,832 Toronto, On, Canada
Dave Dziarmaga
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Yes its 10mm, basically 4 thick washers. 1. back side 2. forgot, but when you put the rotor on it can only go on one way Here are some pics to help you out.
1993 Talon TSi AWD, if in doubt, increase boost. I've got a fever, and the only perscription is more cowbell! -Bruce Dickenson for sale: my talon
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184365
July 18, 2006 12:42 pm UTC
July 18, 2006 12:42 pm UTC
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Mike Jackson
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Damn Dave that's perfect thanks. I was searching Talk and Tuners too trying to find a pic. The Cobra backets then would go front side of the Boer's bracket. The brakes will be on tonight . FYI though it looks like the above pic has the caliper on the wrong side of the car. Pin and bleeder should both be at the top.
1998 AWD 12.1@122 421whp -SOLD Duck Dodgers = EPIC FAILZ!
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184366
July 18, 2006 07:39 pm UTC
July 18, 2006 07:39 pm UTC
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Mike Jackson
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Well the calipers and rotors are on. I got 20 thick washers and had 8 ~1mm thin ones that I bought last night. To get the bracket centered on the rotors was a bit tricky. When adding the washers I had to try differnt combinations of washers to get bracket centered over the rotor.
I think both top ones were 4 thick washers but the drivers side low was 3 thick washers while the passenger side low was 3 thick 4 thin.
Anyway it all looks good now. After work I will remove the stock calipers and lines and install the stainless lines.
Anyone wany to recommend a good fluid? I bought a bottle of the Ford DOT 3 550 stuff.
1998 AWD 12.1@122 421whp -SOLD Duck Dodgers = EPIC FAILZ!
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184368
July 18, 2006 08:16 pm UTC
July 18, 2006 08:16 pm UTC
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Mike Jackson
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Spacers were absolutely perfect . I just pressed them on the hub with my fingers then I had to lightly easy them back all the way by lightly tapping around it with a screw driver and small hammer. Nice tight fit. I put the rotors on and again it was a nice tight fit. Perfecto.
1998 AWD 12.1@122 421whp -SOLD Duck Dodgers = EPIC FAILZ!
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184370
July 19, 2006 03:34 am UTC
July 19, 2006 03:34 am UTC
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Mike Jackson
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Goodrich lines were great too. They are DOT approved, lengths and fittings were perfect and they even came with all new hardware (clips crush washers and banjo bolts). I finished installing everything and just bedded in the pads. These things can lock up my tires no problem . I'll post pics when I get a chance.
1998 AWD 12.1@122 421whp -SOLD Duck Dodgers = EPIC FAILZ!
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184373
July 19, 2006 12:46 pm UTC
July 19, 2006 12:46 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 6,447 Onurmomstitties
Mike Jackson
OP
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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OP
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 6,447
Onurmomstitties
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The pad surface area doesn't look any bigger then the 2G pad areas. Also the calipers arean't much bigger. But it looks like the main gains are a much larger rotor to disipate the heat and the fact that the clamping force has been moved much further from the center of the wheel. They also fill in the wheel much better then the stock setup. It no longer looks under braked . The Hawk HP Plus (not HPS) bite great but do squeal a little. I forgot to use any smurf juice so that might be why. I'll probably pull them off and goop them if it bugs me too much.
1998 AWD 12.1@122 421whp -SOLD Duck Dodgers = EPIC FAILZ!
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184374
July 19, 2006 10:10 pm UTC
July 19, 2006 10:10 pm UTC
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,832 Toronto, On, Canada
Dave Dziarmaga
Member
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Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,832
Toronto, On, Canada
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Aww yours dont say cobra, send them back!
1993 Talon TSi AWD, if in doubt, increase boost. I've got a fever, and the only perscription is more cowbell! -Bruce Dickenson for sale: my talon
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184376
July 20, 2006 08:08 pm UTC
July 20, 2006 08:08 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 6,447 Onurmomstitties
Mike Jackson
OP
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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OP
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 6,447
Onurmomstitties
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Note: The pads look like it doesn't matter which ones go where (outter left could go inner right and still fit) but it does matter. On the outter ones there is a rivet holding on one of the clip springs and there is a recess in the caliper for these. If you put the on wrong the rivet will be pushing into the cyliner and boot. I love that they aren't marked Cobra actually. They are nice and stealthy .
1998 AWD 12.1@122 421whp -SOLD Duck Dodgers = EPIC FAILZ!
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184377
July 20, 2006 11:03 pm UTC
July 20, 2006 11:03 pm UTC
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 192 Regina, SK
Jaremy Tallentire
Member
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Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 192
Regina, SK
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What are you doing with your old set?
Which crank pulley are you running btw? I thought undamped were a no-no ?
Thanks
'90 Awd 5-speed R.I.P. '92 Awd 5-speed 16g/fmic/etc '07 civic Si stock DD
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184378
July 21, 2006 09:18 pm UTC
July 21, 2006 09:18 pm UTC
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 6,447 Onurmomstitties
Mike Jackson
OP
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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OP
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 6,447
Onurmomstitties
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Sorry guys the old brakes are spoken for.
I think it's an unorthadox pulley. It was put on 2 owners ago so it wasn't my choice. I too have read about bad effects from an undamped pulley but don't know for sure.
1998 AWD 12.1@122 421whp -SOLD Duck Dodgers = EPIC FAILZ!
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184379
July 25, 2006 01:30 am UTC
July 25, 2006 01:30 am UTC
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 16 West Hempstead, NY
Craig Wildfeuer
Junior Member
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Junior Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 16
West Hempstead, NY
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Okay, looking on the DSM talk boards, as well as others, I have never seen this setup before!! I have been looking for a Big Brake upgrade since I autox the car, and the factory brakes fade too quickly, even being cross drilled and slotted. Where can I find this magickal set up?
1997 Eagle Talon TSi AWD Crankwalkin' POS!!
Soon to be an Evo3 Powered piece of STi eating fury!!
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Re: Brake upgrades
#184380
August 17, 2006 02:10 am UTC
August 17, 2006 02:10 am UTC
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Joined: Jan 1970
Posts: 4,971 Beamsville, Ont, Canada
Steve Kinnaird
Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
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Senior Member, with Far TOO Much Time on Their Hands
Joined: Jan 1970
Posts: 4,971
Beamsville, Ont, Canada
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Just to follow up on my pedal problems..
I've finally finished replacing the old, rubber lines with SS braided ones, and upgraded the brake master from a 15/16" to a 1".
Pedal feel has GREATLY improved.
Now, I'll have all kinds of time to talk about DSMs, because I won't be busy fixing mine!
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