I am running around 22psi now with BPR7ES gapped at .028.
Thinking of going a down on the gap and maybe a bit colder heat range and non projected like BR8ES or the non projected BR7ES.

I would like to shortly try 25psi or so with water/alc injection on 50/50 or so and still have good timing and afr.

Currently at pretty low timing around 11/12 and afr around just over 10 to 1.Pump gas 92 no water alc installed yet.See some knock if go much higher on timing or leaner on fuel. Wondering though if the BPR7ES are mabye a reason and mabye they are blowing out a bit past 20psi at .028 gap.
So anyone running the BR7ES or BR8ES and how are they for fouling and daily driving. Not going to drive the car past end october or before april 1.
So don't have to start in the really cold weather.

1997 talon awd,fully built 2.4, FP3065.

Hi Allen, I am currently using the BR7ES (gapped at .028) and it took away some knock. As for the fouling, I've only had this spark plug in for about 2K km's. Next oil change, I'm going to pull it out and see how it looks. If it is fouled, how should it look it?

Everyone's setup is different along with how they tune/use it.
Plugs are cheap.
This is something you'll have to play around with. If various gaps on the 7s aren't doing it for you, try it with 8s. If they're both fouling no matter what you do - maybe you're running rich.

Keep in mind that a very cold plug that works perfectly with very high boost, may foul to sh!t on low boost & cruising conditions.

11/12 degrees of timing is too low. You shouldn't go lower than 14 degrees.

There are many guys that are running under 12 degrees with no problems but its not usually recommended to go under 14 on non forged engines.

I have read of one guy running excellent times with like 30psi and 8 degrees on pump gas.Another guy runs 26 and 12 on pump as well.

I am hoping to get some timing back with the water injection but am also hoping to maybe run
more timing with different plugs as well.

20psi is pretty good level of boost on my setup most of the time with 25 or 30 being in reserve for track or sunday morning grudge match type of use.

I just picked up a set of BR7ES non-projected yesterday and plan to try the gap at .024 to see if it can take away some of my knock. I just did a baseline with my old BPR7ES at 0.028 and i'm going to swap them out after work and see what happens. I'm knocking pretty bad on my new turbo at the moment.

20 psi on pump, 16G, SMIC and the BR7ES made for lots of high boost fun but the plugs needed to be changed every oil change or the car would start to break up under high boost shortly afterwards from fouled plugs. If the plugs are fouled the high boost will just blow out the flame.
I did a lot of city/highway driving (80,000kms in 3 years at a 12 second power level) though so YMMV.

Someone fill me in on why please.

There are some guys that say lower than 14 creates too much heat or something especially harmful maybe to non forged parts.I have forged so don't much care and talked to many guys that have run huge boost on pump at like 8 degrees no problems at all.
It would be nice to have dyno nearby so could test out some theories on the low boost high timing versus high boost low timing theories.
See which way makes the most power .Timing is supposed to make more torque though so lower might actually be easier on stock drivetrains.

I also got COP and tried to install it but it was giving me a lot of misfires so took it off.I may have had wiring wrong though. Reversed it but still wrong but its confusing since using a 1g coipack plug and into 2g harness and need reversed order for the 95ecu.
I may need to get ignition amplifier to get a bit hotter or whatever sprark. Considering crane hear mds is really unreliable these days.

I think will see if can find any BR7ES even BR8ES and see how they work out.

I would have thought I could run at least 20psi on my current setup on pump 92 and still have like 15/16 timing and 10.5 to 11 to 1 afrs without needed water/alc injection. But so far apparently not.I do think have 8.7 or 8.8 to 1 compression .Also heard the 2.4 can run less timing anyway.

What's "Big boost"?

What's a "Big Turbo"?

Perhaps you could find out on a "big board" ??

For 22 psi, if you're having problems with a BPR7ES plug gapped at .028, you've got other problems you need to fix.

This is on the stock ignition system. Not the COP you're not running, not the mds (whatever that is??) and not the Crane you might think about buying.

GOT COP!?!?!?!

Peckerhead :rolleyes: ...I am simply getting some knock at higher rpm ranges with current setup.I have heard that it might be from running projected plugs and also that projected are more prone to misfire which could be picked up possibly as knock and don't want misfiring as up the boost in the 20 to 30psi range.

So asking again a pretty simple question and 99% of the guys that answered ,answered nicely.

Now big turbo would obviously be bigger than t28s and 14bs.Since most guys are not going to run them much higher than 20psi or so.

So guess that would be 16s pushed hard and bigger.

And yes on stock igntion to figure out how to get my COP to work right.I meant msd box sorry.
But hearing of near 100% failure rates on msds nowadays. So thats why considering crane which have heard only good things about for quality lately.

And COP stands for Coil on Plug for you newbies!

Projected plugs won't cause you to knock.

You'll feel a misfire, it won't "show up as knock".

I gave you a pretty simple answer.

Wanna fix your knock? Learn how to use your DSMLink, turn down your boost, or run higher octane gas.

Not that it matters. you won't take this advice. You'll just ask more questions about stuff you've heard, or stuff you might want to change before solving the problem.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong. MAYBE you'll take everyone's advice and look elsewhere for your problems because they've already told you you can run that boost on those plugs, with that gap.

Stranger things HAVE happened.

The reason why I switched to non-projected plugs was to lower my chance for detonation since I am running 9:1 compression. By doing so, it help a little in reducing knock.

Peckerhead. I know how to use my dsmlink! Do you have a dsmlink? You don't even list your mods in sig or in your profile.
Do you have a big turbo or running big boost on at least a 16g ,boost from 20 to 30 range?
If yes great appreciate your observations,if no then why are you in the thread being stupid.

I asked simple to the point questions here.And am mostly getting to the point answers.
Yes I also read the big boards too, there are a lot more members on them obviously. But nice to get some perspective from the local guys also.Maybe even someone lurking in my city who knows?

And I have had people running very fast say they have had good luck with the BR7ES and even the BR8ES non projection and they did help their knock. But some of that might be from going colder with the BR8ES.

I don't want to turn down my boost below 20psi.Not in the turbos efficiency range. And am already pretty low on timing. And besides it seems I see some knock not huge or anything, but annoying even at 14psi with stock timing and fuel maps. So that makes me want to check out other options like plugs which are cheap and easy to do. But not sure we have the BR7ES or 8s here in my city.Likely have to order them so want to see how many guys have had good luck with them. The more the better.

Hello Allan.

I use the 7s and gap them down to 0.025". Heard that going to a tighter gap might not yeild any better results.

Going to 8s might cause some foul during regular driving.

I would suggest that you stick with the 7s and maybe go to an MSDS system if you are experiencing some misfire.

Hope this helps.

Ghislain.

Absolute GOLD!

Yeah Steve when you have owned three DSM's and have tuned with DSM link on a big turbo'd setup you come back and talk to us. You should try doing some searches and you will find some good info that will help you when you get the money to upgrade that little 14b of yours. One day you may even be quick enough to keep up with some of the quicker guys on this board. Check check check yourself ok

Steve is way beyond using DSMLink. If you only read a few threads instead of blowing hot air out of your ass all day long you would know what he's capable of.

I certainly don't know the answer to your question but I've seen some great ideas in here. Why don't you just try some of them? You remind me of kids in school that pay others to do their assignments for them.

And what does a silly sig have to do with people's knowledge and abilities?

EDIT: I now have motivation to actually install the rest of my mods... So my s16g will run a sub 13.3 on a real track and not some gadget.

In the order you asked them:

No. I make all the changes possible in DSMLink (and then some) directly on the chip, without the graphic interface to "dumb it down" for me.

Yes.

Yes.

I'm glad you appreciate my observations. They're more like real world testing results though. Not so much "observations" from hearing about some fast guy saying (I think) he was using that combination.

"And I have had people running very fast say they have had good luck with the BR7ES and even the BR8ES non projection and they did help their knock. But some of that might be from going colder with the BR8ES."

Therein, lies your ongoing problem. You REFUSE to isolate things down to one variable. Keep guessing about gap AND heat range, and you'll be guessing forever.

Try what people have been telling you since you got here: one thing at a time.

I'll go be stupid somewhere else now, and keep all my ubertuningbigboostonhugeFPturbowithmeth/alcyinjectionormaybenot secrets to myself.

Have fun with your pile of plugs, and sore gapping hand.

Steve "12.27 @ 114.8 (but I think I'd Tazzo a solid low 10)with pump gas, E316G, 2G MAF, FMIC (with short route piping), crushed BOV, Walbro 255 LP FP, 2.5" DP, 3" cat, 3" BR cat-back, 2G front brakes, SS brake lines (with DOT 4 fluid), KYB AGX adjustables (set at 3 front/ 6 rear) B & G springs, Falken Ziex ZE512 tires, ACT 2600 Clutch, SS clutch line, RX7 Turbo II injectors, Cyclone intake manifold (with PROPERLY working butterflies), and Peckerhead Chip" Kinnaird

Man, those guys over at the F-Body board ARE having fun, aren't they?


Lionel: I'll see YOU at the track. (LOL.. I guess some of us DO go there to do more than watch what a car "kind of like mine, but only a little different", ran.)

have zero idea what Steve runs.You see HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY MODS IN HIS SIG AND HE DON'T HAVE ANY IN HIS PROFILE!

So what am I supposed to do read minds? Search thru all his old posts? Umm that right there is a good reason to put mods in the sig or at least the profile.
I explained COP for any newbies on the board,lots of guys seem to lurk but not post.No wonder why since some of you jump right on them when they ask reasonable questions.

If Steve has a big turbo 16g or bigger and is running 20 to 30psi great. Then wanted his opinion. But he just posts sarcastic comments and doesn't say squat maybe he is running a 14b well then not what the question asked.

Thankfully not everyone on the board is like a few of you.

Greg and Gabriel managed to answer nicely with no sarcastic crap. I already said if you don't like me or my posts stay out of them.

And "way beyond dsmlink" yeah right.. :rolleyes:
There are very many fast cars running dsmlink and doing just fine. Whats way beyond Aem?
Does Steve have an AEM ? Hard to tell when he don't put it his sig or profile.

And my little gadget has been down the track many times and was very accurate.And that 13.3 was run on 14psi with 2.0 60ft and pig rich.
I can assure you its not running 13.3s now.

Yep.. still trolling the board...

"And "way beyond dsmlink" yeah right..
There are very many fast cars running dsmlink and doing just fine. Whats way beyond Aem?


stuff like this:

87 06 20 0d 8f dd 80 09 86 00 97 8b c6 10 f7 01 61 f7 01 70 39

It's a subroutine I've added that let's the ECU ignore the knock sensor, and lock my ignition timing in at 6* whenever the clutch is pushed in.

Wonder why I'd wanna do that?

Ok see your sig list.So you have experience running some bigger boost on bigger turbo. Fine.

So you ran a low 12,decent.The local one ran 11.88 at 119.8mph.That is a great time for an evo and probably a record for mph with an evo.
Kudos to him and kudos to you.

Burning chips don't seem like a very fun way to do what link can do with a touch of the mouse.Take out your ecu,install your ecu, install the chip..hope you have a zif socket!
And like to see you burning them at the track making quick corrections for temp,track conditions,etc.
I had a chip in my 92 and maft.It was ok. But dsmlink is much superior but each to his own.

And keep hearing about his track stuff.I have been to the track many many times with my various cars before most of you were even born.
And had engines making way more power than these little 4 bangers.

I don't need a track time right now to know what my car can do or is doing.I had a t25,14b ,50 trim already. Been there ,done that.Track numbers can come next season no big rush.In the meantime any local boys want to come play against the 97 feel free.Lots of flat deserted highways around here early sunday mornings.

And not sure if you can compare high boost on an evo that can push 44pounds /min to a turbo that can push 65. Maybe the 7s might be fine on the smaller turbo but not work so good on the bigger ones.
Hence the question asked.

Some of you guys always seem to take my questions and turn them into something else. I think you need to stay on topic like everyone always tells me.

And I think it should be mandatory to least post a reasonable sig or have the main mods in the profile.Unless you are overly worried someone else will find out what you run. :rolleyes:

And as for the f body board giving me a hard time that was mostly just a couple members from here and a couple from f body board.The members from the f body board have apologized or me to them.The members from here on the f body board well

The fun is the stuff that "Link" can't do.

"Ok see your sig list.So you have experience running some bigger boost on bigger turbo. Fine.
"

You posted a 15 line response without even reading the entire post you were responding too?!!??

Wow. No wonder you miss so much of the advice people give you. I thought you were stubborn. Apparently, you're not REALLY looking for answers. What ARE you looking for, then?

Oh my fuc#.

This topic was about Plug gaps. I never got involved in any of these stupid debates and their is a reason about it. Do not care about what has been going on here but some of you guys need to chill a bit.

Grown up should be able to figure it out.

Back on the topic please.

Ghislain.

Your A/F ratio is 10:1 thats really rich. It is possible your getting rich knock. How about yout take a slider or two in the fuel to the minus (Taking away fuel). Re-log the run and let us know what happens. You should be around 11-11.5:1 Air to fuel ratio wise. Try that and let us know what happens.

Good answer Jesse.

Yo Allan, send me a log and I'll have a look at it for you.

Send it to ghislain@kos.net

Ghislain.

Thanks Jesse, I have tried to run leaner and with more timing but always seem to get some knock and not at shifts mostly up top range past 5500 or so. Thats why seems now have had best luck with taking out timing and running richer.

I am dealing with pump 92 best fuel here right now.And my compression is 8.7 or 8.8 .Wiseco 2.4 .020 over pistons.

Keep your timing as is for now and take away a few sliders of the fuel. Get into the 11-11.5:1 ratio for air to fuel. Thats your next task my friend.

If your problems are just up top are you just adjusting your timing and fuel up top only, or are you adjusting global settings? I really don't consider your setup right now big boost. You should be able to work out the bugs with a little bit of research and some trial and error.

Also, are you running an wide band? If so it should be pretty simple to set your A/F and adjust the timing from there to be just shy of knocking.

Then again, I don't have a $1500 turbo so you'll likely ignore what I have to say.

I also don't understand why you are blaming the plugs so quickly. Have you spent the time on your tuning yet?

When I leaned out, I also lowered my timing to 0* from 5*. Are 2G's that much different?

1G have more aggressive timing because of there lower compression ratio, they need the extra timing for that extra power. I believe a 1G gets 18-20 degrees of advance at redline Versues the 2g's 16 degrees.

I have 1g timing capability since have 6 bolt swap and 1g cas.I set it to 5 degrees before tdc stock setting.Dont' really need to drop bas more can just play with timing at 500rpm points in dsmlink.
Noah, I have played with timing and fuel a lot at various boost levels from 14 to current 22psi.
My global and deadtime is set fine.I have near zero ltrims low and mid, did a bit of adjusting on airflow sliders at 50 and 150 since running a gm maf.Boost est looks close also.
I have a plx300 wideband.And I don't know again where you guys think I look down on anyone with any level of mods or any turbo. That little big turbo sig I post now occasionally is meant with humor although maybe dry humor to some of you guys. I have a slightly modded 1991 laser,my 92 was run on a 14b for several months as well and did logical progression of mods to my 14b 92 before jumping to a 50trim when realized could better reach my personal goals that had for the car.
This time around went farther and wilder. Not sorry car is fast as f##k but it wasn't cheap.
I may keep my 91 or get another 1g awd for daily driver thru winter and general fun,some track maybe who knows and an evo 16 might be just fine in that one.
So knock off the snob thing will you guys.I posted my sig about big turbos because of what some of you guys are saying. I simply will say that bigger turbos have more potential to go fast and are faster on top end.More hp will be faster period.You can argue all you want but its simply airflo.Now et depends on driving ,traction,more variable. MPH shows true power.

Off topic again.Feel I have pretty much exhuasted the tuning options without throwing on the water injection. But not sure will install that this year depends. Only 7 weeks or so till car goes into winter hibernation.That might be next year country.
But for remainder of the year just having fun trying to see how far timing and afr and boostwise can push the car on pump 92.
No big serious reasons to do so. Simply having fun with my dsm.Same as rest of you.

The first couple of paragraphs was enough. I know your story by heart now.

Why don't you post a log for us all to have a look. I'd like to see it even if I may not know the answer.

AF ratio: 11-11.5:1 <----Try that.

OK I put the BR7ES gapped to .024 in my car yesterday and noticed no reduction in knock. I'm getting 5-6 degrees of retard beyond around 5k consistently. This is around 20psi. Meth injection system is installed so i'm hoping that will cure what ails me. Going to the track on Sunday to give her a whirl. Will let you know how things work out.

Sounds good Greg. Looking forward to seeing what progress you make and what you run.
So like me you have a water/alc system just havent' tried it out yet? What are you running for timing and afr?
I don't think my knock is more than a couple of degrees anymore.But of course am running pretty fat with pretty darn low timing.

Allan.
I always ues NGK 8s on all cars that run more than 20 psi. You should be able to gap between .026 and .024
I never run less than 94 Oct. in any of my turbo cars. If you can't get it, put a can of Nos booster in your tank.
Jesse is right on the A/F and always tune with a good wideband 02.
Treat yourself to an AEM EMS and learn to use it over the winter. You can take your car alot further than the Link. They are not cheap but they are well worth it.

I found BR7es at local canadian tire.Not sure they carry the 8s in my city might need to order them in.

As for AEM sure it is sweet and maybe upgrade to it someday but for now not going to spend that much more on my 97 talon as want to buy better trans,some stronger axles and get direct port nitrous all hopefully over winter and that will finish the car off.

Mod love will be going big time into my 99 trans am finishing it up with twin turbos.