[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Fisher:
[QB] Treat yourself to an AEM EMS and learn to use it over the winter. You can take your car alot further than the Link.


There are guys running 9's with DSMlink, so its more than capable for a streetcar. But if I were to build an all-out track car, I would get a full standalone like AEM.

Kevin what you are you running with your FPRED.What plugs,gap and are you on stock ignition? And fouling problems? Any problems with knock at higher rpms.And what afr and timing are you getting or can you get off the water/alc injection and what afr and timing and boost on.

I using BPR7ES gapped at 0.028 on a stock ignition reving upto 8500rpms. I've experienced no problems. I'm running about an 11.3:1 AFR with about 10-12 dgrees of timing up top at about 27-28psi. I'm only running one rad fan so I may have a degree or 2 pulled due to coolant temps. The ecu will pull timing when coolant temps are over 206F. My temps will usually be 210-213F. I blame my huge FMIC for blocking my rad.

I haven't spent any time tuning without the meth injection and don't plan on doing any.

Thanks for the info Kevin as we have similar turbos. So you are getting big boost with fairly lean afr and not too bad timing maybe a bit low.But man that is bigger boost than you were running before and car must freakin rip at that level!

My coolant temps stay pretty much under 200 with my huge intercooler. I have also ordered 180 1g stat since using 1g therm housing to replace my 195 and will add some water wetter as well.
I have dual fal slimlines behind rad on engine side and force them on all the time the car is on with dsmlink currently.
I don't think am getting any knock retard from coolant temps.Was going to try 160 but fans make more diff than therms once they have opened up.

Most of my pulls have been back to back with no or little cool down and some have been in 90 F,30 plus C degree weather.

I can see not bothering to tune without the meth are you running 50 /50 type thing or 100% meth these days to get to such high boost numbers?

I guess am mostly curious to see what can get out of the pump 92 right now no water injection ,more a challenge than anything else.

But it is starting to get frustrating.

I run BR8ES' in my street and race car. At .028 gap on a stock ignition system on the street car. I tune it for around 22psi on pump gas. I noticed that the ecu was pulling timing running a 11.0-11.5 a/f ratio. I was seeing about 16 degrees at best. Tuned it for 12.0 and i'll get around 19 degrees advance up top.

EGT's are healthy, if anything they are low. But I like it there.

I've pretty much been running 24-25psi since I broke the motor in. I started out with a 50/50 mix and then kept on using less and less water until I was at the 100% meth I'm at now. I do mix KLOTZ Uplon fuel lube along with the meth.
And yes....the car freakin rips

Chris sounds like a lot of timing.But then again this is a 1g car.What compression ratio?Pump 94 or what? 22 psi..what turbo?
That afr is pretty lean also at 12 to 1.Wonder if maybe I have rich knock but tried leaner afr.

So no fouling with br8es?

So 10:1 is too rich for a boost AFR? I am using AEM on my 2.3 stroker, and the only way I am keeping knock out is to run 10:1. If I even go to 10.5:1 i jump up to about 2.5V of knock. At 14 PSI of boost on a SCM61, I have 11.8* of advance. is this too low?

I am running AEM, so that is why my knock is in volts...

Chris B that is about what I am running alos with similar timing. Just running about 22psi mabye cause I have a huge intercooler. But even at 14 it didn't seem I could crank much more timing or go much leaner. Maybe these 2.3 and 2.4 just like less timing or maybe its cause I have pretty high 8.7 or 8.8 compression. Thats why trying to find out if some different or colder plugs might help.
I don't get huge knock retard at my current settings its near 2 degrees mostly but trying to get zero.

Hey Allan. I am also running the 8.8:1 pistons. But my head was milled as well as my block, so i expect i would be running even higher compression than that. With these settings I have my knock down to 0 unless i idle alot, and my intake air gets to hot. I have a FMIC but not HUGE. just big. lol i think i myself might try the non projected plugs. Gabriel seems to have had success and they are cheap enough why not give it a whirl. I will let you know if they help me out at all.

Allen, theres one more thing you may want to try. A friend of mine just build a 2.3 stroker and is using BPR7ES (gave him all mine since I don't use them anymore), and he's not knocking. The only thing I can think of as to why is that, he's using a heat barrier inbetween the intake and the head. After 5 runs at Race city last night, his intercooler was still very cold. I will be getting one as soon as he emails me where he got one. Its not the Magnus one.

Apparently, Hondas use this concept in most of their models.

Allan don't bother screwing around with spark plugs, get that meth injection on the go. I tried mine out for the first time tonight.. factory timing and 24psi and not a single degree of retard. I had the timing retarded about 4 degrees before and was still getting 5-6 degrees of retard on top of that at only 20psi! I'm going to try advancing the timing a bit tomorrow and see what I can get out of her at the track!

Meth injection is one of the best mods i've done so far! What a difference! Currently running 50/50.

You are likely correct Greg.I should just get that water injection on there and that should let me run some nice afr and timing and boost.
I lowered my boost a touch tonite and was around 19/20 and didn't see the dreaded knock light which is still set at 2 degrees retard.
So I can run that range with current BPR7es and my pump 92.And although my timing is down to 11/12 range and afr is 10 to 1 pretty much ,the car is still damn fast with torque steer like crazy when you punch it and still hits very hard but maybe with lowered timing not hard enough to snap things like twigs.

I think maybe go back to my original plan for this year be mellow and keep the boost around twenty psi and wait for next seasons stronger trans and axles to really start putting the boost up on this thing.
I can only imagine Kevin Ks FPREd at near 30psi.

Oh and Gabriel, I bought a hondata type plastic gasket for between my intake and head.Is that what you mean? I have had it since day one.

It might help slightly.My intercooler is big race one as well.It also dont' seem to hurt my cooling since can stay under 200 degrees on the hottest days it seems. But force both my slimline fans on all the time to keep things at that temp.Especially in traffic.

As you can see in my last post I lowered my boost a few pounds and seem to be looking good for knock right now.I may not be able to crank that much more timing or boost with my 8.8 or so compression ratio and my 2.4 likely don't need as much timing to do as good a job as a 2.0 would need.

The car is already a handful at 20psi and is more than enough for any around town driving.

I ran my eclipse at 22PSI and made 402WHP with the 7s gaped at 30. ANd I had very small counts of knock. Were talking 2 counts at most and not that often. With 91 fuel and my timing set at 5 degrees. Anything above and the knock count went above 8 counts.
This winter I will be looking into building a new engine with forged internals and the water/meth injection.
But a word to the wise, dont waste your money on a MSD box or the DIS2. Mine burnt out and when it did work I still had to gap my plugs to 28. So whats the point. Espically when you have a DSMlink that does everything else the MSD does as far as launch and nitrous goes!
ANd that plastic gasket your refering to on hondas is called a thermo spacer. Thats what there called for hondas anyways.

I would also like to add that while on the dyno I tryed a few different approaches with adding boosh and fuel to lower knock. ANd also lowering boost and fuel and adding timing. And I fund that I could reach bigger numbers with lower knock by having the timing set to 5 degrees and running the A/F to 10.8:1 and the boost at 22psi (which is where it is now) then I could with the timing set to 11 degrees and the air fuel at 11.5:1 and running 18PSI.
It was a difference of almost 50hp!

Troy not following this too well. You say timing at set to 5 degrees and then timing at 11 degrees.
Base timing is 5 degrees can't see why you would set the base to 11 or do you mean 11 total and 11.5 to 1 afr and 18psi then do you mean 15 degrees maybe at 10.5 with 22psi?
Can you clarify this its very interesting since you had dyno access which some of us don't.

Not the plastic type. I believe Magnus sells the plastic type as well. You need a phenolic type spacer.

I got the one magnus sells.It might do a little bit not sure.
I bought some BR7ES and some BR8ES for cheap on sale at local partsource.Canadian tire had the BR7ES in stock not sure about BR8ES.
I will maybe do some of my own experimenting after all plugs are cheap.
I will likely run the 8s for a few track runs next season when install direct port nitrous.Will be staying likely to 50 or 75 shots max.

I know why Steve lowered his timing to 6' between shifts! Lower timing equals lower TIME for the 1/4. Right?

Right?

I think that stuff was to stop shift knock personally.Some cars knock right around the shifts.

Yeah I get better reselts with my base timing set at 5 degrees and the DSMlink set at zero and have the boost set at 22PSI and run my air fuel at 10.8:1 then I do with my base timing set at 5 degrees but advance the DSMlink an additional 6 degrees to make it 11 degrees and set the boost at 18 PSI and run the air fuel at 11.5:1.
Were talking almost a 50 HP difference with the same 2 counts of knock at most with either setting!
I am totally sorry if this confuses anyone! I find it hard sometimes to put into words what I am trying to say!

Still confusing. you have 5 degrees in first case you said and dsmlink at zero.That gives like 16 degrees from 6000 up.
Now in second case you raised up timing 6 degrees but not sure what area as can't see you raising base timing that would make no sense.
And if you raised timing to 22 degrees that woudl be way much likely on pump gas you were running and at 11.5 to 1.

I went to the track today finally.. 12.48 @ 109.8 MPH. 24 psi, stock timing, 11.0 AFR, 50/50 meth/water, and NO KNOCK all on good ol' Newfie 91 octane.

Looks good Greg, what were your 60fts?And what tire are you on?

1.73 60 foot, running 3 year old hankook ventus HR2 215/50R17.

Coments moved to the Events forum by Moi...

My guess on Steve's setup would be some kind of anti-lag scheme...

Small turbo, but big boost, so I guess I can put my 2 cents in

I run 23psi and run BPR8ES plugs gapped to .25 I did notice a goodly reduction in knock when I switched from -7ES plugs. I was able to take out 3-5% on my SAFC at mid-high rpm.

I actually wasn't expecting anything, but was pleasantly surprised.

Well you dropped your combustion temps!

Update: Finally threw in some BR8ES plugs. I just put them in at whatever gap they came with as my gapper no where to be found.

I did notice some misfire higher up in the rpm band past 6500 or so. I have the boost at 21psi. I could mabye take the boost down a bit and see if the misfire goes away but likely just try closing the gap a bit.
I think they helped some with knock but not sure how quick they will foul in daily driving. I do try to give the car some exercise nearly every time I drive it so that might help.

No spark box on the car just the COP system.
No water /meth injection on the car yet,still in the boxes. Mostly just wanted to see if could run 20psi or so on our pump 92. I so far have my timing way down there with 11 or 12 degrees thru most of the range going up another degree or two near the top of the rpm range. Rev limiter is at 8000.
I have my afr around 10.5 to one past 5000 or so.

Thats about all the tuning for this year as car is gone away in couple days for winter.
So can't really say with 100% certainty yet if the BR8ES are really a huge difference over the BPR7ES that were in there. The BPR7ES were all burning very nice and didn't look fouled out at all. All nice color no oil residue or carbon residue...perfect.

You have a stroker motor and your rev-limit as set at 8000rpm?!...

I personally don't have much experience with running sub-14 degree timing on high boost, althought it does sound to me a bit like a bandaid for not being able to make power in some other way. I understand that the higher you go with boost, obviously your timing will suffer, but have you tried going the other route? Lower your boost but raise the timing?!

What compression are you running?! I`m running 9:1 on my 2.0L. I run about 15-16psi at 7000rpm with about 20 degrees timing. With the current cold weather, the car really breaks your kneck when it gets to 4k rpm and doesn't let up till 7k, I sure hope this "high boost, severly low timing" approach is ripping up all 4 tires on your dsm compared to my current tune, otherwise you're just waisting fuel and putting a lot more boost throught your motor than I am.

You have a bigger turbo, an aftermarket intake manifold and another 0.4L of displacement on me, I sure hope when you hammer the gas that the change in your pockets ends up on your rear window, otherwise you should really consider trying to maximize every ounce of power you can get out of that motor before having to have to raise the boost and lower the timing.

I don't think 8000 is that high for a 2.4 from lots of reading and researching.I don't shift at 8000 would shift at 7000 to 7500 but kept bumping the limiter in first way too often got sick of it. The 8000 limit gives me some breathing room in first especially. Car pulls hard all the way up.Some of that of course is the Jm fab intake and the crower stage 3s which are a bit more aggressive I think than the hks 272s but idle like babies on the 2.4. Barely any lope at all at 900 or so rpm. Nice and stealthy.

Past 5000 or so almost feels like shot of nitrous and pulls to redline .Sure it would pull to 10,000 if wanted it too but not that brave.

I have tried a few different things with the car.I have run it at lower boost with more timing and that seemed not too bad but its definitely faster feeling with 20/21 psi than at
15 with higher timing. They say in order of power its boost, timing and then afr.Its a theory ,I don't have any dyno runs to verify it.

Again I am mostly just playing out the season with the car trying different things like higher boost ,low timing reasonable afrs. The plug change to BR8ES was more for experimentation than anything else. Plugs are cheap anyway and easy to change.
The car is pulling plenty strong at 20 psi even with the lower timing.I think the 2.4 and guess the 2.3 can run lower timing than 2.0s.
I have about 8.8 or 8.7 to 1 compression. I am not seeing much knock at all and like to keep it pretty close to zero. Better safe than sorry.

I do expect to be able to dial back up the timing once get off my butt and install my snow meth system but garage is unheated so it might be spring before do that. Obviously to make max power on pump need meth injection and then can dial up timing ,lean the afr and up the boost.All good things!

I can assure you my car does rip even at 1bar boost with just normal timing and reasonable afrs.No complaints there. My experience with tuning so far seems to indicate that more timing adds more torque and that leaner afrs make the car crisper. More boost of course makes it faster.Some guys even run like 28psi on pump with super low timing like 8 degrees max. I have not tried that yet. Lower torque might also be a good thing and save tranny and axles and possibly clutch also. So far had no breakage with my combo and have done some reasonable 5000 rpm stutterbox launches at 20psi or so. I have not tried antilag launches yet though. Not quite that courageous and wanted to last the season with no breakage and reached that goal. Or will in a few more days. Looking good so far.
Your combo sounds real wicked ther Mike ,sure it hauls ass.

Allan, before you change ANYTHING you need to check the gap on those things. Who knows what they are possibly gapped at. Those things get banged around like crazy when shipped or stocked.

Another thing... some spark plugs have a tendancy to "regap" themselves after they've been subject to the heat from the ignition. After you gap them and throw them in, you may want to take them out against to make sure they're still in spec.

This happened to me.. gapped them at .28 I think, and then car started missing, took them out and they were anywhere from .28 to .34

Will buy a new gapper guage and regap likely at .025 to .028 range. See how that works out. The COP was working to same boost level with the BPR7ES unless the non projected need a smaller gap to fire than the projected plugs do. I know the BPR7ES were at .028. I can't see misfire from fouling after only running the new plugs for a couple of minutes.So pretty sure it must be the gap. What is factory ngk gap supposed to be?

I have no clue what the factory gap is, but it wouldn't surprise me if you got an odd gap on at least one. I've seen it on all my new plugs.

Turbo .028 - .031
Non-Turbo .039 - .043

Ok will buy new gapper and regap likely later today. Like said think try somewhere between .025 and .028.

Allan do you have an aftermarket ignition or just the COP setup? Have heard several times with people having issues with the COP & miss fires if your not running an aftermarket ignition system, .25 seems to clear this up. Michael, I've always heard the same as Allan boost over timing to make more power. I don't have dyno results but the butt dyno defently says more boost with lower timing is the way to go. As for the antilag I would keep its uses to a min. While giving it a try here & there isn't too bad, if you use it all the time you will probably damage the turbo & the 3065 isn't exactly cheep. The antilag works by changing timing so that the fuel actually combusts in the turbine housing instead of the combustion chamber to get that turbine wheel spooled.

NGK BPR7ES's gapped at .028 work fine for me at 26psi on the Factory Ignition.