I am running around 22psi now with BPR7ES gapped at .028.
Thinking of going a down on the gap and maybe a bit colder heat range and non projected like BR8ES or the non projected BR7ES.

I would like to shortly try 25psi or so with water/alc injection on 50/50 or so and still have good timing and afr.

Currently at pretty low timing around 11/12 and afr around just over 10 to 1.Pump gas 92 no water alc installed yet.See some knock if go much higher on timing or leaner on fuel. Wondering though if the BPR7ES are mabye a reason and mabye they are blowing out a bit past 20psi at .028 gap.
So anyone running the BR7ES or BR8ES and how are they for fouling and daily driving. Not going to drive the car past end october or before april 1.
So don't have to start in the really cold weather.

1997 talon awd,fully built 2.4, FP3065.

Hi Allen, I am currently using the BR7ES (gapped at .028) and it took away some knock. As for the fouling, I've only had this spark plug in for about 2K km's. Next oil change, I'm going to pull it out and see how it looks. If it is fouled, how should it look it?

Everyone's setup is different along with how they tune/use it.
Plugs are cheap.
This is something you'll have to play around with. If various gaps on the 7s aren't doing it for you, try it with 8s. If they're both fouling no matter what you do - maybe you're running rich.

Keep in mind that a very cold plug that works perfectly with very high boost, may foul to sh!t on low boost & cruising conditions.

11/12 degrees of timing is too low. You shouldn't go lower than 14 degrees.

There are many guys that are running under 12 degrees with no problems but its not usually recommended to go under 14 on non forged engines.

I have read of one guy running excellent times with like 30psi and 8 degrees on pump gas.Another guy runs 26 and 12 on pump as well.

I am hoping to get some timing back with the water injection but am also hoping to maybe run
more timing with different plugs as well.

20psi is pretty good level of boost on my setup most of the time with 25 or 30 being in reserve for track or sunday morning grudge match type of use.

I just picked up a set of BR7ES non-projected yesterday and plan to try the gap at .024 to see if it can take away some of my knock. I just did a baseline with my old BPR7ES at 0.028 and i'm going to swap them out after work and see what happens. I'm knocking pretty bad on my new turbo at the moment.

20 psi on pump, 16G, SMIC and the BR7ES made for lots of high boost fun but the plugs needed to be changed every oil change or the car would start to break up under high boost shortly afterwards from fouled plugs. If the plugs are fouled the high boost will just blow out the flame.
I did a lot of city/highway driving (80,000kms in 3 years at a 12 second power level) though so YMMV.

Someone fill me in on why please.

There are some guys that say lower than 14 creates too much heat or something especially harmful maybe to non forged parts.I have forged so don't much care and talked to many guys that have run huge boost on pump at like 8 degrees no problems at all.
It would be nice to have dyno nearby so could test out some theories on the low boost high timing versus high boost low timing theories.
See which way makes the most power .Timing is supposed to make more torque though so lower might actually be easier on stock drivetrains.

I also got COP and tried to install it but it was giving me a lot of misfires so took it off.I may have had wiring wrong though. Reversed it but still wrong but its confusing since using a 1g coipack plug and into 2g harness and need reversed order for the 95ecu.
I may need to get ignition amplifier to get a bit hotter or whatever sprark. Considering crane hear mds is really unreliable these days.

I think will see if can find any BR7ES even BR8ES and see how they work out.

I would have thought I could run at least 20psi on my current setup on pump 92 and still have like 15/16 timing and 10.5 to 11 to 1 afrs without needed water/alc injection. But so far apparently not.I do think have 8.7 or 8.8 to 1 compression .Also heard the 2.4 can run less timing anyway.

What's "Big boost"?

What's a "Big Turbo"?

Perhaps you could find out on a "big board" ??

For 22 psi, if you're having problems with a BPR7ES plug gapped at .028, you've got other problems you need to fix.

This is on the stock ignition system. Not the COP you're not running, not the mds (whatever that is??) and not the Crane you might think about buying.

GOT COP!?!?!?!

Peckerhead :rolleyes: ...I am simply getting some knock at higher rpm ranges with current setup.I have heard that it might be from running projected plugs and also that projected are more prone to misfire which could be picked up possibly as knock and don't want misfiring as up the boost in the 20 to 30psi range.

So asking again a pretty simple question and 99% of the guys that answered ,answered nicely.

Now big turbo would obviously be bigger than t28s and 14bs.Since most guys are not going to run them much higher than 20psi or so.

So guess that would be 16s pushed hard and bigger.

And yes on stock igntion to figure out how to get my COP to work right.I meant msd box sorry.
But hearing of near 100% failure rates on msds nowadays. So thats why considering crane which have heard only good things about for quality lately.

And COP stands for Coil on Plug for you newbies!

Projected plugs won't cause you to knock.

You'll feel a misfire, it won't "show up as knock".

I gave you a pretty simple answer.

Wanna fix your knock? Learn how to use your DSMLink, turn down your boost, or run higher octane gas.

Not that it matters. you won't take this advice. You'll just ask more questions about stuff you've heard, or stuff you might want to change before solving the problem.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong. MAYBE you'll take everyone's advice and look elsewhere for your problems because they've already told you you can run that boost on those plugs, with that gap.

Stranger things HAVE happened.

The reason why I switched to non-projected plugs was to lower my chance for detonation since I am running 9:1 compression. By doing so, it help a little in reducing knock.

Peckerhead. I know how to use my dsmlink! Do you have a dsmlink? You don't even list your mods in sig or in your profile.
Do you have a big turbo or running big boost on at least a 16g ,boost from 20 to 30 range?
If yes great appreciate your observations,if no then why are you in the thread being stupid.

I asked simple to the point questions here.And am mostly getting to the point answers.
Yes I also read the big boards too, there are a lot more members on them obviously. But nice to get some perspective from the local guys also.Maybe even someone lurking in my city who knows?

And I have had people running very fast say they have had good luck with the BR7ES and even the BR8ES non projection and they did help their knock. But some of that might be from going colder with the BR8ES.

I don't want to turn down my boost below 20psi.Not in the turbos efficiency range. And am already pretty low on timing. And besides it seems I see some knock not huge or anything, but annoying even at 14psi with stock timing and fuel maps. So that makes me want to check out other options like plugs which are cheap and easy to do. But not sure we have the BR7ES or 8s here in my city.Likely have to order them so want to see how many guys have had good luck with them. The more the better.

Hello Allan.

I use the 7s and gap them down to 0.025". Heard that going to a tighter gap might not yeild any better results.

Going to 8s might cause some foul during regular driving.

I would suggest that you stick with the 7s and maybe go to an MSDS system if you are experiencing some misfire.

Hope this helps.

Ghislain.

Absolute GOLD!

Yeah Steve when you have owned three DSM's and have tuned with DSM link on a big turbo'd setup you come back and talk to us. You should try doing some searches and you will find some good info that will help you when you get the money to upgrade that little 14b of yours. One day you may even be quick enough to keep up with some of the quicker guys on this board. Check check check yourself ok

Steve is way beyond using DSMLink. If you only read a few threads instead of blowing hot air out of your ass all day long you would know what he's capable of.

I certainly don't know the answer to your question but I've seen some great ideas in here. Why don't you just try some of them? You remind me of kids in school that pay others to do their assignments for them.

And what does a silly sig have to do with people's knowledge and abilities?

EDIT: I now have motivation to actually install the rest of my mods... So my s16g will run a sub 13.3 on a real track and not some gadget.

In the order you asked them:

No. I make all the changes possible in DSMLink (and then some) directly on the chip, without the graphic interface to "dumb it down" for me.

Yes.

Yes.

I'm glad you appreciate my observations. They're more like real world testing results though. Not so much "observations" from hearing about some fast guy saying (I think) he was using that combination.

"And I have had people running very fast say they have had good luck with the BR7ES and even the BR8ES non projection and they did help their knock. But some of that might be from going colder with the BR8ES."

Therein, lies your ongoing problem. You REFUSE to isolate things down to one variable. Keep guessing about gap AND heat range, and you'll be guessing forever.

Try what people have been telling you since you got here: one thing at a time.

I'll go be stupid somewhere else now, and keep all my ubertuningbigboostonhugeFPturbowithmeth/alcyinjectionormaybenot secrets to myself.

Have fun with your pile of plugs, and sore gapping hand.

Steve "12.27 @ 114.8 (but I think I'd Tazzo a solid low 10)with pump gas, E316G, 2G MAF, FMIC (with short route piping), crushed BOV, Walbro 255 LP FP, 2.5" DP, 3" cat, 3" BR cat-back, 2G front brakes, SS brake lines (with DOT 4 fluid), KYB AGX adjustables (set at 3 front/ 6 rear) B & G springs, Falken Ziex ZE512 tires, ACT 2600 Clutch, SS clutch line, RX7 Turbo II injectors, Cyclone intake manifold (with PROPERLY working butterflies), and Peckerhead Chip" Kinnaird

Man, those guys over at the F-Body board ARE having fun, aren't they?


Lionel: I'll see YOU at the track. (LOL.. I guess some of us DO go there to do more than watch what a car "kind of like mine, but only a little different", ran.)

have zero idea what Steve runs.You see HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY MODS IN HIS SIG AND HE DON'T HAVE ANY IN HIS PROFILE!

So what am I supposed to do read minds? Search thru all his old posts? Umm that right there is a good reason to put mods in the sig or at least the profile.
I explained COP for any newbies on the board,lots of guys seem to lurk but not post.No wonder why since some of you jump right on them when they ask reasonable questions.

If Steve has a big turbo 16g or bigger and is running 20 to 30psi great. Then wanted his opinion. But he just posts sarcastic comments and doesn't say squat maybe he is running a 14b well then not what the question asked.

Thankfully not everyone on the board is like a few of you.

Greg and Gabriel managed to answer nicely with no sarcastic crap. I already said if you don't like me or my posts stay out of them.

And "way beyond dsmlink" yeah right.. :rolleyes:
There are very many fast cars running dsmlink and doing just fine. Whats way beyond Aem?
Does Steve have an AEM ? Hard to tell when he don't put it his sig or profile.

And my little gadget has been down the track many times and was very accurate.And that 13.3 was run on 14psi with 2.0 60ft and pig rich.
I can assure you its not running 13.3s now.

Yep.. still trolling the board...

"And "way beyond dsmlink" yeah right..
There are very many fast cars running dsmlink and doing just fine. Whats way beyond Aem?


stuff like this:

87 06 20 0d 8f dd 80 09 86 00 97 8b c6 10 f7 01 61 f7 01 70 39

It's a subroutine I've added that let's the ECU ignore the knock sensor, and lock my ignition timing in at 6* whenever the clutch is pushed in.

Wonder why I'd wanna do that?

Ok see your sig list.So you have experience running some bigger boost on bigger turbo. Fine.

So you ran a low 12,decent.The local one ran 11.88 at 119.8mph.That is a great time for an evo and probably a record for mph with an evo.
Kudos to him and kudos to you.

Burning chips don't seem like a very fun way to do what link can do with a touch of the mouse.Take out your ecu,install your ecu, install the chip..hope you have a zif socket!
And like to see you burning them at the track making quick corrections for temp,track conditions,etc.
I had a chip in my 92 and maft.It was ok. But dsmlink is much superior but each to his own.

And keep hearing about his track stuff.I have been to the track many many times with my various cars before most of you were even born.
And had engines making way more power than these little 4 bangers.

I don't need a track time right now to know what my car can do or is doing.I had a t25,14b ,50 trim already. Been there ,done that.Track numbers can come next season no big rush.In the meantime any local boys want to come play against the 97 feel free.Lots of flat deserted highways around here early sunday mornings.

And not sure if you can compare high boost on an evo that can push 44pounds /min to a turbo that can push 65. Maybe the 7s might be fine on the smaller turbo but not work so good on the bigger ones.
Hence the question asked.

Some of you guys always seem to take my questions and turn them into something else. I think you need to stay on topic like everyone always tells me.

And I think it should be mandatory to least post a reasonable sig or have the main mods in the profile.Unless you are overly worried someone else will find out what you run. :rolleyes:

And as for the f body board giving me a hard time that was mostly just a couple members from here and a couple from f body board.The members from the f body board have apologized or me to them.The members from here on the f body board well

The fun is the stuff that "Link" can't do.

"Ok see your sig list.So you have experience running some bigger boost on bigger turbo. Fine.
"

You posted a 15 line response without even reading the entire post you were responding too?!!??

Wow. No wonder you miss so much of the advice people give you. I thought you were stubborn. Apparently, you're not REALLY looking for answers. What ARE you looking for, then?

Oh my fuc#.

This topic was about Plug gaps. I never got involved in any of these stupid debates and their is a reason about it. Do not care about what has been going on here but some of you guys need to chill a bit.

Grown up should be able to figure it out.

Back on the topic please.

Ghislain.

Your A/F ratio is 10:1 thats really rich. It is possible your getting rich knock. How about yout take a slider or two in the fuel to the minus (Taking away fuel). Re-log the run and let us know what happens. You should be around 11-11.5:1 Air to fuel ratio wise. Try that and let us know what happens.

Good answer Jesse.

Yo Allan, send me a log and I'll have a look at it for you.

Send it to ghislain@kos.net

Ghislain.

Thanks Jesse, I have tried to run leaner and with more timing but always seem to get some knock and not at shifts mostly up top range past 5500 or so. Thats why seems now have had best luck with taking out timing and running richer.

I am dealing with pump 92 best fuel here right now.And my compression is 8.7 or 8.8 .Wiseco 2.4 .020 over pistons.

Keep your timing as is for now and take away a few sliders of the fuel. Get into the 11-11.5:1 ratio for air to fuel. Thats your next task my friend.

If your problems are just up top are you just adjusting your timing and fuel up top only, or are you adjusting global settings? I really don't consider your setup right now big boost. You should be able to work out the bugs with a little bit of research and some trial and error.

Also, are you running an wide band? If so it should be pretty simple to set your A/F and adjust the timing from there to be just shy of knocking.

Then again, I don't have a $1500 turbo so you'll likely ignore what I have to say.

I also don't understand why you are blaming the plugs so quickly. Have you spent the time on your tuning yet?

When I leaned out, I also lowered my timing to 0* from 5*. Are 2G's that much different?

1G have more aggressive timing because of there lower compression ratio, they need the extra timing for that extra power. I believe a 1G gets 18-20 degrees of advance at redline Versues the 2g's 16 degrees.

I have 1g timing capability since have 6 bolt swap and 1g cas.I set it to 5 degrees before tdc stock setting.Dont' really need to drop bas more can just play with timing at 500rpm points in dsmlink.
Noah, I have played with timing and fuel a lot at various boost levels from 14 to current 22psi.
My global and deadtime is set fine.I have near zero ltrims low and mid, did a bit of adjusting on airflow sliders at 50 and 150 since running a gm maf.Boost est looks close also.
I have a plx300 wideband.And I don't know again where you guys think I look down on anyone with any level of mods or any turbo. That little big turbo sig I post now occasionally is meant with humor although maybe dry humor to some of you guys. I have a slightly modded 1991 laser,my 92 was run on a 14b for several months as well and did logical progression of mods to my 14b 92 before jumping to a 50trim when realized could better reach my personal goals that had for the car.
This time around went farther and wilder. Not sorry car is fast as f##k but it wasn't cheap.
I may keep my 91 or get another 1g awd for daily driver thru winter and general fun,some track maybe who knows and an evo 16 might be just fine in that one.
So knock off the snob thing will you guys.I posted my sig about big turbos because of what some of you guys are saying. I simply will say that bigger turbos have more potential to go fast and are faster on top end.More hp will be faster period.You can argue all you want but its simply airflo.Now et depends on driving ,traction,more variable. MPH shows true power.

Off topic again.Feel I have pretty much exhuasted the tuning options without throwing on the water injection. But not sure will install that this year depends. Only 7 weeks or so till car goes into winter hibernation.That might be next year country.
But for remainder of the year just having fun trying to see how far timing and afr and boostwise can push the car on pump 92.
No big serious reasons to do so. Simply having fun with my dsm.Same as rest of you.

The first couple of paragraphs was enough. I know your story by heart now.

Why don't you post a log for us all to have a look. I'd like to see it even if I may not know the answer.

AF ratio: 11-11.5:1 <----Try that.

OK I put the BR7ES gapped to .024 in my car yesterday and noticed no reduction in knock. I'm getting 5-6 degrees of retard beyond around 5k consistently. This is around 20psi. Meth injection system is installed so i'm hoping that will cure what ails me. Going to the track on Sunday to give her a whirl. Will let you know how things work out.

Sounds good Greg. Looking forward to seeing what progress you make and what you run.
So like me you have a water/alc system just havent' tried it out yet? What are you running for timing and afr?
I don't think my knock is more than a couple of degrees anymore.But of course am running pretty fat with pretty darn low timing.

Allan.
I always ues NGK 8s on all cars that run more than 20 psi. You should be able to gap between .026 and .024
I never run less than 94 Oct. in any of my turbo cars. If you can't get it, put a can of Nos booster in your tank.
Jesse is right on the A/F and always tune with a good wideband 02.
Treat yourself to an AEM EMS and learn to use it over the winter. You can take your car alot further than the Link. They are not cheap but they are well worth it.

I found BR7es at local canadian tire.Not sure they carry the 8s in my city might need to order them in.

As for AEM sure it is sweet and maybe upgrade to it someday but for now not going to spend that much more on my 97 talon as want to buy better trans,some stronger axles and get direct port nitrous all hopefully over winter and that will finish the car off.

Mod love will be going big time into my 99 trans am finishing it up with twin turbos.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Fisher:
[QB] Treat yourself to an AEM EMS and learn to use it over the winter. You can take your car alot further than the Link.


There are guys running 9's with DSMlink, so its more than capable for a streetcar. But if I were to build an all-out track car, I would get a full standalone like AEM.

Kevin what you are you running with your FPRED.What plugs,gap and are you on stock ignition? And fouling problems? Any problems with knock at higher rpms.And what afr and timing are you getting or can you get off the water/alc injection and what afr and timing and boost on.

I using BPR7ES gapped at 0.028 on a stock ignition reving upto 8500rpms. I've experienced no problems. I'm running about an 11.3:1 AFR with about 10-12 dgrees of timing up top at about 27-28psi. I'm only running one rad fan so I may have a degree or 2 pulled due to coolant temps. The ecu will pull timing when coolant temps are over 206F. My temps will usually be 210-213F. I blame my huge FMIC for blocking my rad.

I haven't spent any time tuning without the meth injection and don't plan on doing any.

Thanks for the info Kevin as we have similar turbos. So you are getting big boost with fairly lean afr and not too bad timing maybe a bit low.But man that is bigger boost than you were running before and car must freakin rip at that level!

My coolant temps stay pretty much under 200 with my huge intercooler. I have also ordered 180 1g stat since using 1g therm housing to replace my 195 and will add some water wetter as well.
I have dual fal slimlines behind rad on engine side and force them on all the time the car is on with dsmlink currently.
I don't think am getting any knock retard from coolant temps.Was going to try 160 but fans make more diff than therms once they have opened up.

Most of my pulls have been back to back with no or little cool down and some have been in 90 F,30 plus C degree weather.

I can see not bothering to tune without the meth are you running 50 /50 type thing or 100% meth these days to get to such high boost numbers?

I guess am mostly curious to see what can get out of the pump 92 right now no water injection ,more a challenge than anything else.

But it is starting to get frustrating.

I run BR8ES' in my street and race car. At .028 gap on a stock ignition system on the street car. I tune it for around 22psi on pump gas. I noticed that the ecu was pulling timing running a 11.0-11.5 a/f ratio. I was seeing about 16 degrees at best. Tuned it for 12.0 and i'll get around 19 degrees advance up top.

EGT's are healthy, if anything they are low. But I like it there.

I've pretty much been running 24-25psi since I broke the motor in. I started out with a 50/50 mix and then kept on using less and less water until I was at the 100% meth I'm at now. I do mix KLOTZ Uplon fuel lube along with the meth.
And yes....the car freakin rips

Chris sounds like a lot of timing.But then again this is a 1g car.What compression ratio?Pump 94 or what? 22 psi..what turbo?
That afr is pretty lean also at 12 to 1.Wonder if maybe I have rich knock but tried leaner afr.

So no fouling with br8es?

So 10:1 is too rich for a boost AFR? I am using AEM on my 2.3 stroker, and the only way I am keeping knock out is to run 10:1. If I even go to 10.5:1 i jump up to about 2.5V of knock. At 14 PSI of boost on a SCM61, I have 11.8* of advance. is this too low?

I am running AEM, so that is why my knock is in volts...

Chris B that is about what I am running alos with similar timing. Just running about 22psi mabye cause I have a huge intercooler. But even at 14 it didn't seem I could crank much more timing or go much leaner. Maybe these 2.3 and 2.4 just like less timing or maybe its cause I have pretty high 8.7 or 8.8 compression. Thats why trying to find out if some different or colder plugs might help.
I don't get huge knock retard at my current settings its near 2 degrees mostly but trying to get zero.

Hey Allan. I am also running the 8.8:1 pistons. But my head was milled as well as my block, so i expect i would be running even higher compression than that. With these settings I have my knock down to 0 unless i idle alot, and my intake air gets to hot. I have a FMIC but not HUGE. just big. lol i think i myself might try the non projected plugs. Gabriel seems to have had success and they are cheap enough why not give it a whirl. I will let you know if they help me out at all.

Allen, theres one more thing you may want to try. A friend of mine just build a 2.3 stroker and is using BPR7ES (gave him all mine since I don't use them anymore), and he's not knocking. The only thing I can think of as to why is that, he's using a heat barrier inbetween the intake and the head. After 5 runs at Race city last night, his intercooler was still very cold. I will be getting one as soon as he emails me where he got one. Its not the Magnus one.

Apparently, Hondas use this concept in most of their models.

Allan don't bother screwing around with spark plugs, get that meth injection on the go. I tried mine out for the first time tonight.. factory timing and 24psi and not a single degree of retard. I had the timing retarded about 4 degrees before and was still getting 5-6 degrees of retard on top of that at only 20psi! I'm going to try advancing the timing a bit tomorrow and see what I can get out of her at the track!

Meth injection is one of the best mods i've done so far! What a difference! Currently running 50/50.

You are likely correct Greg.I should just get that water injection on there and that should let me run some nice afr and timing and boost.
I lowered my boost a touch tonite and was around 19/20 and didn't see the dreaded knock light which is still set at 2 degrees retard.
So I can run that range with current BPR7es and my pump 92.And although my timing is down to 11/12 range and afr is 10 to 1 pretty much ,the car is still damn fast with torque steer like crazy when you punch it and still hits very hard but maybe with lowered timing not hard enough to snap things like twigs.

I think maybe go back to my original plan for this year be mellow and keep the boost around twenty psi and wait for next seasons stronger trans and axles to really start putting the boost up on this thing.
I can only imagine Kevin Ks FPREd at near 30psi.

Oh and Gabriel, I bought a hondata type plastic gasket for between my intake and head.Is that what you mean? I have had it since day one.

It might help slightly.My intercooler is big race one as well.It also dont' seem to hurt my cooling since can stay under 200 degrees on the hottest days it seems. But force both my slimline fans on all the time to keep things at that temp.Especially in traffic.

As you can see in my last post I lowered my boost a few pounds and seem to be looking good for knock right now.I may not be able to crank that much more timing or boost with my 8.8 or so compression ratio and my 2.4 likely don't need as much timing to do as good a job as a 2.0 would need.

The car is already a handful at 20psi and is more than enough for any around town driving.

I ran my eclipse at 22PSI and made 402WHP with the 7s gaped at 30. ANd I had very small counts of knock. Were talking 2 counts at most and not that often. With 91 fuel and my timing set at 5 degrees. Anything above and the knock count went above 8 counts.
This winter I will be looking into building a new engine with forged internals and the water/meth injection.
But a word to the wise, dont waste your money on a MSD box or the DIS2. Mine burnt out and when it did work I still had to gap my plugs to 28. So whats the point. Espically when you have a DSMlink that does everything else the MSD does as far as launch and nitrous goes!
ANd that plastic gasket your refering to on hondas is called a thermo spacer. Thats what there called for hondas anyways.

I would also like to add that while on the dyno I tryed a few different approaches with adding boosh and fuel to lower knock. ANd also lowering boost and fuel and adding timing. And I fund that I could reach bigger numbers with lower knock by having the timing set to 5 degrees and running the A/F to 10.8:1 and the boost at 22psi (which is where it is now) then I could with the timing set to 11 degrees and the air fuel at 11.5:1 and running 18PSI.
It was a difference of almost 50hp!

Troy not following this too well. You say timing at set to 5 degrees and then timing at 11 degrees.
Base timing is 5 degrees can't see why you would set the base to 11 or do you mean 11 total and 11.5 to 1 afr and 18psi then do you mean 15 degrees maybe at 10.5 with 22psi?
Can you clarify this its very interesting since you had dyno access which some of us don't.

Not the plastic type. I believe Magnus sells the plastic type as well. You need a phenolic type spacer.

I got the one magnus sells.It might do a little bit not sure.
I bought some BR7ES and some BR8ES for cheap on sale at local partsource.Canadian tire had the BR7ES in stock not sure about BR8ES.
I will maybe do some of my own experimenting after all plugs are cheap.
I will likely run the 8s for a few track runs next season when install direct port nitrous.Will be staying likely to 50 or 75 shots max.

I know why Steve lowered his timing to 6' between shifts! Lower timing equals lower TIME for the 1/4. Right?

Right?

I think that stuff was to stop shift knock personally.Some cars knock right around the shifts.

Yeah I get better reselts with my base timing set at 5 degrees and the DSMlink set at zero and have the boost set at 22PSI and run my air fuel at 10.8:1 then I do with my base timing set at 5 degrees but advance the DSMlink an additional 6 degrees to make it 11 degrees and set the boost at 18 PSI and run the air fuel at 11.5:1.
Were talking almost a 50 HP difference with the same 2 counts of knock at most with either setting!
I am totally sorry if this confuses anyone! I find it hard sometimes to put into words what I am trying to say!

Still confusing. you have 5 degrees in first case you said and dsmlink at zero.That gives like 16 degrees from 6000 up.
Now in second case you raised up timing 6 degrees but not sure what area as can't see you raising base timing that would make no sense.
And if you raised timing to 22 degrees that woudl be way much likely on pump gas you were running and at 11.5 to 1.

I went to the track today finally.. 12.48 @ 109.8 MPH. 24 psi, stock timing, 11.0 AFR, 50/50 meth/water, and NO KNOCK all on good ol' Newfie 91 octane.

Looks good Greg, what were your 60fts?And what tire are you on?

1.73 60 foot, running 3 year old hankook ventus HR2 215/50R17.

Coments moved to the Events forum by Moi...

My guess on Steve's setup would be some kind of anti-lag scheme...

Small turbo, but big boost, so I guess I can put my 2 cents in

I run 23psi and run BPR8ES plugs gapped to .25 I did notice a goodly reduction in knock when I switched from -7ES plugs. I was able to take out 3-5% on my SAFC at mid-high rpm.

I actually wasn't expecting anything, but was pleasantly surprised.

Well you dropped your combustion temps!

Update: Finally threw in some BR8ES plugs. I just put them in at whatever gap they came with as my gapper no where to be found.

I did notice some misfire higher up in the rpm band past 6500 or so. I have the boost at 21psi. I could mabye take the boost down a bit and see if the misfire goes away but likely just try closing the gap a bit.
I think they helped some with knock but not sure how quick they will foul in daily driving. I do try to give the car some exercise nearly every time I drive it so that might help.

No spark box on the car just the COP system.
No water /meth injection on the car yet,still in the boxes. Mostly just wanted to see if could run 20psi or so on our pump 92. I so far have my timing way down there with 11 or 12 degrees thru most of the range going up another degree or two near the top of the rpm range. Rev limiter is at 8000.
I have my afr around 10.5 to one past 5000 or so.

Thats about all the tuning for this year as car is gone away in couple days for winter.
So can't really say with 100% certainty yet if the BR8ES are really a huge difference over the BPR7ES that were in there. The BPR7ES were all burning very nice and didn't look fouled out at all. All nice color no oil residue or carbon residue...perfect.

You have a stroker motor and your rev-limit as set at 8000rpm?!...

I personally don't have much experience with running sub-14 degree timing on high boost, althought it does sound to me a bit like a bandaid for not being able to make power in some other way. I understand that the higher you go with boost, obviously your timing will suffer, but have you tried going the other route? Lower your boost but raise the timing?!

What compression are you running?! I`m running 9:1 on my 2.0L. I run about 15-16psi at 7000rpm with about 20 degrees timing. With the current cold weather, the car really breaks your kneck when it gets to 4k rpm and doesn't let up till 7k, I sure hope this "high boost, severly low timing" approach is ripping up all 4 tires on your dsm compared to my current tune, otherwise you're just waisting fuel and putting a lot more boost throught your motor than I am.

You have a bigger turbo, an aftermarket intake manifold and another 0.4L of displacement on me, I sure hope when you hammer the gas that the change in your pockets ends up on your rear window, otherwise you should really consider trying to maximize every ounce of power you can get out of that motor before having to have to raise the boost and lower the timing.

I don't think 8000 is that high for a 2.4 from lots of reading and researching.I don't shift at 8000 would shift at 7000 to 7500 but kept bumping the limiter in first way too often got sick of it. The 8000 limit gives me some breathing room in first especially. Car pulls hard all the way up.Some of that of course is the Jm fab intake and the crower stage 3s which are a bit more aggressive I think than the hks 272s but idle like babies on the 2.4. Barely any lope at all at 900 or so rpm. Nice and stealthy.

Past 5000 or so almost feels like shot of nitrous and pulls to redline .Sure it would pull to 10,000 if wanted it too but not that brave.

I have tried a few different things with the car.I have run it at lower boost with more timing and that seemed not too bad but its definitely faster feeling with 20/21 psi than at
15 with higher timing. They say in order of power its boost, timing and then afr.Its a theory ,I don't have any dyno runs to verify it.

Again I am mostly just playing out the season with the car trying different things like higher boost ,low timing reasonable afrs. The plug change to BR8ES was more for experimentation than anything else. Plugs are cheap anyway and easy to change.
The car is pulling plenty strong at 20 psi even with the lower timing.I think the 2.4 and guess the 2.3 can run lower timing than 2.0s.
I have about 8.8 or 8.7 to 1 compression. I am not seeing much knock at all and like to keep it pretty close to zero. Better safe than sorry.

I do expect to be able to dial back up the timing once get off my butt and install my snow meth system but garage is unheated so it might be spring before do that. Obviously to make max power on pump need meth injection and then can dial up timing ,lean the afr and up the boost.All good things!

I can assure you my car does rip even at 1bar boost with just normal timing and reasonable afrs.No complaints there. My experience with tuning so far seems to indicate that more timing adds more torque and that leaner afrs make the car crisper. More boost of course makes it faster.Some guys even run like 28psi on pump with super low timing like 8 degrees max. I have not tried that yet. Lower torque might also be a good thing and save tranny and axles and possibly clutch also. So far had no breakage with my combo and have done some reasonable 5000 rpm stutterbox launches at 20psi or so. I have not tried antilag launches yet though. Not quite that courageous and wanted to last the season with no breakage and reached that goal. Or will in a few more days. Looking good so far.
Your combo sounds real wicked ther Mike ,sure it hauls ass.

Allan, before you change ANYTHING you need to check the gap on those things. Who knows what they are possibly gapped at. Those things get banged around like crazy when shipped or stocked.

Another thing... some spark plugs have a tendancy to "regap" themselves after they've been subject to the heat from the ignition. After you gap them and throw them in, you may want to take them out against to make sure they're still in spec.

This happened to me.. gapped them at .28 I think, and then car started missing, took them out and they were anywhere from .28 to .34

Will buy a new gapper guage and regap likely at .025 to .028 range. See how that works out. The COP was working to same boost level with the BPR7ES unless the non projected need a smaller gap to fire than the projected plugs do. I know the BPR7ES were at .028. I can't see misfire from fouling after only running the new plugs for a couple of minutes.So pretty sure it must be the gap. What is factory ngk gap supposed to be?

I have no clue what the factory gap is, but it wouldn't surprise me if you got an odd gap on at least one. I've seen it on all my new plugs.

Turbo .028 - .031
Non-Turbo .039 - .043

Ok will buy new gapper and regap likely later today. Like said think try somewhere between .025 and .028.

Allan do you have an aftermarket ignition or just the COP setup? Have heard several times with people having issues with the COP & miss fires if your not running an aftermarket ignition system, .25 seems to clear this up. Michael, I've always heard the same as Allan boost over timing to make more power. I don't have dyno results but the butt dyno defently says more boost with lower timing is the way to go. As for the antilag I would keep its uses to a min. While giving it a try here & there isn't too bad, if you use it all the time you will probably damage the turbo & the 3065 isn't exactly cheep. The antilag works by changing timing so that the fuel actually combusts in the turbine housing instead of the combustion chamber to get that turbine wheel spooled.

NGK BPR7ES's gapped at .028 work fine for me at 26psi on the Factory Ignition.

The BPR7ES were working fine at up to about 21/22psi with the COP at .028. They worked fine at same gap and same boost before the COP.

But I wanted to clean up my engine bay and run the COP. And its been working aces no misfires but didn't go past 22psi.

I installed the BR8ES more to see if can get knock down a bit and run more timing and leaner. As said more experiment until get the meth injection on there ,likely not till next spring now.

They are working not bad but getting misfire past 6500 or so at around 21 psi but also didn't check or change the gaps from the factory packaging. So very likely they are over .030.
I got a new more precise gapper today that can do .025,028 and .030. Will run think .025 or .028 as the BPR7ES were working at that gap with the COP at the same boost level. I won't be going to 25 or more psi till next year and then if necessary an aftermarket igntion box will be added likely aem or crane hear good things about both of them and bad things about msd these days.

So keep you guys updated.If weather is reasonable then likely gap the plugs tommorrow.
But this is Saskatchewan!

Ok took out plugs and gapped to around .025/026 figured since going to run direct port next spring might as well gap down a bit. I have my boost at 21/22 or so and it pulls to redline every gear no sputter or misfire don't miss a beat and car is screaming fast. I still do have my timing down a bit around 5000 to 6000 but then it ramps up although still only 13 or 14.I leaned out my afr to around 10.5 to 1 and its near 11.0 again past 6500 or so.

So if the BR8ES don't foul out from around town driving they seem like they will work good. I saw no knock at all and always seemed to have some with the BPR7ES. So they might be a good thing to try.

I also have to say I know the car is faster at 21/22psi with a bit less timing from 4000 to 6000 then it was at 1bar with more timing. So right now I have to subscribe the theory of boost,timing and afr order of more to less power.
As also said to me more timing seems to really help the torque, leaner seems to make the car just crisper. More boost well it just makes the car faster period!
The car is pretty scary fast right now and the colder weather dont' hurt either.You don't have a lot of time to watch anything but the road and the tach and getting a shift light so don't have to watch the tach!

This car and combo has my utter respect now. It is not a playtoy but a weapon.
A cruise missle comes to mind.

No more experimenting until next spring.But have to say if the car never got any faster than it is right now I would likely be more than happy with it.

Good to hear your getting your issues sorted out. Do you already have a turbo timer? If not check out the HKS Type 1 its got abunch of extra neat features one of which is a dual stage shift light. It beeps and flashes the screen red instead of the usual blue. I have mine mounted on the top of the steering column & it works really well.

Hmm..got an apexi turbo timer. That does sound like a good feature on the hks one.I am buying this new autometer shift light its same size as 2 1/16 inch guage and it will match my other phantom guages ,also getting autometer phantom guage wideband as well.
A shift light will be a good thing for sure ,man these things rev fast as heck!

Hmm put car away but before I did was driving it for last cruise of season. It started up good first time and again at gas station but then went for some groceries and when came out it didn't seem to want to start. Wondering if those BR8es are fouling out already? I have been boosting it up pretty good though not just idling for long periods in traffic.
Guess see how it goes in spring. Plugs are cheap so no big deal there.

All that wondering...
Just pull a plug and have a look?

Plugs may be cheap, but not if you are changing them every week...

Yeah good idea.just pull one..do that in spring but maybe they would foul and then clean off after starting it and driving it for a bit? The idle is perfect though.
Thought read in another post about big injectors not being so good in really cold weather?
I have 950s if that matters.

And yeah Noah if they start fouling all the time would go back down to a BR7ES.But the 8s are working nice for knock for me and pretty happy with the current pump gas no meth injection yet tune.

An 87 post long thread about what plugs/gap should be used.

I'd hate to try and search through this if I was looking for information later on.

Can we come to a conclusion and let this die?

please?

Conclusion..well the plugs were working pretty good added some timing and leaned it out some and didn't see any knock. But had the one incident yesterday of car not wanting to start right away but not 100% sure it was plugs and with car put away won't really find out till next spring.
Sometimes things are not exactly black and white.
Also since using COP now its possible plugs might foul in my car that wouldn't in non COP factory setup. I still also might pick up spark amplifier over winter. I am not giving up on my COP I like it.

What's all this BR and BPR crap?

loose the resistors BP7ES motor cycles,, ect plugs.

more bang than R plugs

less chance of missing if fouled

BUT, the spark is not as long ( lenght of time dumb dumb)

Here talk about this for a couple pages ( where's my spoon, geez I'm an asshole)

no really

Umm not sure what you are tring to say there
Brett.I don't think running non resistor spark plugs are a good thing,think it would interfere with my dsmlink and possibly stereo interference.

I am just fine running the resistor plugs.
As said mostly an experiment for now to see how far can push things without my meth injection system installed. Just bored.

you won't have any problems thats all I've ever run and is what some others run as well, you might have to relocate your dsm link to the trunk to avoid interferance but it is worth it!

it's what Peckerhead usses!

Hmm let car idle today and tried a bunch of restarts and had no problem starting the car at all. Not sure what was up the other day maybe cause it was colder out? Will as said do more research on the BR8ES in daily driving next spring.