how to run only 8psi?????
#204825
November 22, 2003 05:24 am UTC
November 22, 2003 05:24 am UTC
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Rob Cauduro
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OK, lets say I was going to turbo a n/t 4g63 from a 92 esi for a friend. The block and head would be left alone and the turbo, injectors, ecu, fpr etc... would be used from an automatic tsi setup. Now the engine in this state would only be able to handle about 8 psi I have learned, which is fine but how do you hold only 8psi with a 13b wastegate actuator? (same as 14b, 16g etc.. I beleive) With out a mbc and boost solinoid, the car will run 11 psi or so. This is too much boost. Is there any way to run 8 psi while using the stock exhaust manifold, 13b actuator and related components or is getting a custom header with an external wastegate the only option. That could be very very costly. If he used an aftermarket BOV such as a Greddy type s, would a mbc type device work on the line from the intake manifold to the bov instead? What I am trying to get at is can I some how set the bov to leak out the extra boost that is created from the wastegate actuator not working soon enough. Just a crazy thought I had thanx
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Re: how to run only 8psi?????
#204826
November 22, 2003 05:38 pm UTC
November 22, 2003 05:38 pm UTC
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Posts: 2,787 Malaysia
Jeremy Chin
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if you plumb the vacumm/boost directly to the wastegate actuator, it will run 8psi on a 14b actuator. I'm not sure how much the acutator on the 13G holds, but my guess whould be lower.
300hp Talon to a 50hp Citroen. Lovely ain't it? Back to another Mits. A Mirage Cyborg as a future 4G63T candidate.
"I've had more Mitsu's than you can imagine"
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Re: how to run only 8psi?????
#204827
November 22, 2003 09:17 pm UTC
November 22, 2003 09:17 pm UTC
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Rob Cauduro
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Jer, my 90 has the vaccume/boost line plumbed directly to the actuator right now and it holds 10psi. I am sure the actuators are the same. Autos and 5-speeds ran the same boost levels I was told, just different turbos. But then again, why were the injectors, fpr and cams different as well? I'll have to search some more for that one. Thanx though!
Some DSM Tuner guys told me to cut the actuator arm, shorten it then put a threaded coupling in between. Then adjust to desired boost level by adjusting the coupling. I have to think about this one for a bit. I cant picture whats happening in my head right now. I think it would work in the sence that I adjust the coupling to keep the gate valve open a little all the time. Does this make sence?
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Re: how to run only 8psi?????
#204829
November 22, 2003 10:27 pm UTC
November 22, 2003 10:27 pm UTC
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Rob Cauduro
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Rob, I think that just because the actuator opens at 7 or 8psi in the vaccume line doesnt mean there isnt more boost in the ic system. Correct me if I am wrong but lets say the stock actuator opens at 8psi from the vaccume line. This means there is 10psi or more in the intake system because the vaccume line has different preassure properties being so small. (this is just an educated guess, i could be talking out my ass) All I know for sure is my 90 has no mbc on it right now. The vacume line is connected form the j-pipe nipple to the actuator nipple with no "T" or anything, just a dirrect connection and it holds 10 psi. edit: btw, leaving the flapper open would affect spool up but thats what we want, less than stock boost. For 8 psi, I think it will spool plenty fast with a 13g. Once again, I could be wrong, just making guesses here.
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Re: how to run only 8psi?????
#204839
November 23, 2003 10:27 am UTC
November 23, 2003 10:27 am UTC
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Posts: 542 Toronto, ON
Michael Druciarek
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"T" a boost guage directly off of the turbo->WGA line and read the pressure at full boost. Then get rid of the "T", run them directly, but connect your boost guage to your intake manifold. Record the difference, you`ll be able to see how much pressure drop you have. Should not be more than 2psi from the turbo, or more if you have a fmic and so forth..
If you want my opinion, I don't then there's a way of running LESS boost just because the deciding factor is the WGA which has the 9-10psi as the MINIMUM before it opens, bleeding this off and block off that will do nothing except RAISE boost.
The only way I see this working is with the whole flapper thing open a bit to de-crease spool-up but it will also not work because it would only 'cause the turbo to spool slower, but the WGA would still provide the same resitance one you reach full boost, still putting you at 10-11psi or whatever you said you were at.
If you want to change the way the WGA works, you`ll have to cut it open, and replace the spring with something softer. Hope this helps:)
DNP T3/T4, GT30R, 272/272 HKS, Wiseco 9:1, Eagle Rods, Metal HG, ARP Studs, Fidanza Flywheel, Tial 44mm, FIC 850cc, 3" Turbo-Back, ACT 2600, Aeromotive FPR, AEM Wideband, Walbro 255, Huge FMIC, Greddy Type-S, Tein Adjustable Coilovers
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Re: how to run only 8psi?????
#204840
November 23, 2003 08:31 pm UTC
November 23, 2003 08:31 pm UTC
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Jeremy Chin
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In theory, if you plumb the line directly from the turbo J-pipe to the wastegate actuator, you should see only 8psi. I tried it on my car and it held 8psi.
Now, if there is a leak on that line or a pressure drop due to restriction (there shouldn't be any since its a pressure wave) you will see a higher boost lvl. I can almost garantee that a 14 year old actuator isn't as sensitive so that might explain your higher lvls.
why 8 psi?
why just run 10psi?
(I have a spare almost mint cond N/T motor I was thinking of dropping into my talon..run 10psi..just have to keep an eye on the EGT and knock)
300hp Talon to a 50hp Citroen. Lovely ain't it? Back to another Mits. A Mirage Cyborg as a future 4G63T candidate.
"I've had more Mitsu's than you can imagine"
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Re: how to run only 8psi?????
#204842
November 23, 2003 10:50 pm UTC
November 23, 2003 10:50 pm UTC
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,336 Renforth & Eglinton
Tony Vaz
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Rob when I did the conversion I used a stock 13g with a stock wastegate from a 13g on a NT engine. I had a problem with boost control. When I floored the throttle, the boost would almost be instant and it would spike to 15psi and higher!(my boost gauge only reads up to 15psi) It would settle down to 10-11psi. Keep in mind that I also have the WG hooked directly to the Turbo elbow. Thinking that the WG was sticking, I switched with another one. Still had the same problem. My guess with boost spike, is that the Vaccum line is to small of diameter and thw WG can not react quick enough. And all the talk about hooking up the WG vaccum line dircetly the the turbo elbow to run 8 psi is bullshit. It will run @ 11-12psi. Anyways how I slove this is installing 1/8" washers between the WG actuator and the turbo housing. [img] http://www.geocities.com/tcvaz/TurboWasher3.txt[/img] You could also do the thread the actuator arm thing, but to much like work. Anyways hope this helps.
One of the guys on War Of The Wheels.
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Re: how to run only 8psi?????
#204844
November 23, 2003 11:12 pm UTC
November 23, 2003 11:12 pm UTC
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,336 Renforth & Eglinton
Tony Vaz
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When are you planning to to this? I may be able to come out a lend a hand. One more thing, The car runs great but there are knock issues with the conversion. But that might be cured with some kind of fuel control, which i do not have.
One of the guys on War Of The Wheels.
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Re: how to run only 8psi?????
#204848
November 23, 2003 11:59 pm UTC
November 23, 2003 11:59 pm UTC
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Posts: 1,336 Renforth & Eglinton
Tony Vaz
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No I haven't installed a oil cooller. (90 style sitting in the basement, just to lazy to install it) But I do plan on installing it, it might help with the knock issue.
One of the guys on War Of The Wheels.
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Re: how to run only 8psi?????
#204851
November 24, 2003 12:36 am UTC
November 24, 2003 12:36 am UTC
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Posts: 1,336 Renforth & Eglinton
Tony Vaz
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NO. From what Tim said I started to think that a WG from a Dogde Stealth would probally work. I think they run 9 psi stock. But with the washers, I'm running 7-8psi. It dosent shoot up instantly like before.
One of the guys on War Of The Wheels.
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Re: how to run only 8psi?????
#204853
November 24, 2003 01:09 am UTC
November 24, 2003 01:09 am UTC
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,336 Renforth & Eglinton
Tony Vaz
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Well, it shouldn't be to tight (boost climbs to quickly and you run into boost spikes) and not to loose ( to much lag and boost psi peak will be lower). So in other words I would say yes it should be on a bit on the loose side. I don't know if it matters if its a 13g or a big 16g but I'm just going with I found on my 13g.
As for the washers, they actually slightly open the flapper in the O2 housing allowing a bit boost to escape and giving more time for the WG actuator to react to quick increases in boost.
Are you running into spikes in boost with the washers installed on your big 16? if not its probally due to that turbo is a bit slower reacting and it allows time to the WG to open. Problem with the 13g it just spools up to quickly.
One of the guys on War Of The Wheels.
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Re: how to run only 8psi?????
#204854
November 24, 2003 01:49 am UTC
November 24, 2003 01:49 am UTC
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Rob Cauduro
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Yes, I get boost spikes to 23 psi then it settles to 18/19 psi. I wasnt too worried about it untill now. I hate these actuators! I want to go tubular manifold on my car with a tial 40mm when I have $$$$$ to burn some day.
Anyways, back on topic. Putting washers between the turbo and actuator closes the arm by making the actuator further away from the turbo so it pulls the arm closed, doesnt it? I mean thats what I did to close the gap on my big 16g flapper. The only way to open the flapper would be to get the actuator closer to the turbo, increasing the gap size.
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Re: how to run only 8psi?????
#204855
November 24, 2003 03:09 am UTC
November 24, 2003 03:09 am UTC
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Tony Vaz
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I'll take a look tommorrow on my setup just to confirm the washer thing.
One of the guys on War Of The Wheels.
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Re: how to run only 8psi?????
#204857
November 24, 2003 06:40 am UTC
November 24, 2003 06:40 am UTC
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 313 Saint John New Brunswick
Scotty Mac
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The T-3's my brother got for his Camaro have that adjustment on the actuator arms as well. You can adjust the boost slightly with them, but if you just want to decrease boost, why not just put a spring on the WG arm putting a little preload against the WG spring(helping to pull it open). A nice semi long spring that can maintain an even pull over the range of the WG's movement would be ideal... ie you wouldn't want a spring that has a whole lot of tension at the beginning then decreases dramatically as the WG opens. You want it to pull approximately the same tension over the 3/4" of movement that the flapper travels. I have never done it so finding the right spring and the amount of tension will be trial and error.
'92 Laser AWD Turbo
It won't give up, It wants me dead God damn this noise inside my head
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Re: how to run only 8psi?????
#204858
November 24, 2003 07:45 am UTC
November 24, 2003 07:45 am UTC
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Posts: 542 Toronto, ON
Michael Druciarek
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Simple solution, cut the arm in the middle, thread both ends, and extend arm with something in the middle, effectively making the arm longer.
Your wastegate will be slightly open at cruise/idle making boost come-on slower, but it will trick the wastegate to open at 8psi because of the longer rod, ultimatelly keeping your wastegate one step ahead of your PSI.
When at 5psi, you arm will really be at say 7psi because of the longer arm, hope you can vissual this:).
DNP T3/T4, GT30R, 272/272 HKS, Wiseco 9:1, Eagle Rods, Metal HG, ARP Studs, Fidanza Flywheel, Tial 44mm, FIC 850cc, 3" Turbo-Back, ACT 2600, Aeromotive FPR, AEM Wideband, Walbro 255, Huge FMIC, Greddy Type-S, Tein Adjustable Coilovers
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Re: how to run only 8psi?????
#204862
December 01, 2003 05:41 am UTC
December 01, 2003 05:41 am UTC
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Posts: 542 Toronto, ON
Michael Druciarek
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Originally posted by JOSE VEIGA: On my 14b with a busta boost controller i can lower my boost all the way to 6 i did that a couple of times to prove it to friends. How is this possible at all?! Unless the boost controller has a build-in air compressor to pump the wastegate to open, I really cannot see any way of lowering the stock psi, could you explain how this was done?
DNP T3/T4, GT30R, 272/272 HKS, Wiseco 9:1, Eagle Rods, Metal HG, ARP Studs, Fidanza Flywheel, Tial 44mm, FIC 850cc, 3" Turbo-Back, ACT 2600, Aeromotive FPR, AEM Wideband, Walbro 255, Huge FMIC, Greddy Type-S, Tein Adjustable Coilovers
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Re: how to run only 8psi?????
#204863
December 01, 2003 05:46 am UTC
December 01, 2003 05:46 am UTC
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,126 Toronto
Rob Cauduro
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