I'm preparing for some upgrades this coming spring. I've done some research and bought several parts already, either currently installed or pending purchase of the large portion of parts remaining to complete my setup. My goal is about 400 horsepower. It should be noted that I have a Palm with MMCD (I think that's the program) to log my car as I go along but do not have any other means of datalogging. I've tried searching as much as I can and now I find myself needing to ask for some answers and figure you guys can probably give me some very helpful insight. You always do!


Before the question arises, I own a '90 AWD Talon.

So far I've installed a Bully Stage 3 clutch, had a 3" turbo-back exhaust custom fabricated, and my motor was rebuilt including a new water pump and has since been broken-in. I've got a ported 3" Evo III o² housing and ported 2g exhaust manifold collecting dust in my garage. I've replaced my stock radiator and alternator since they were pooched, and now I have boost leak due to my sidemount. This leak has motivated me to upgrade rather than replace stock parts.

So with the 400hp goal in mind, I'm tempted to upgrade the leftover stock parts so that I don't get any surprises down the line. I currently have a 14b which I was hoping to swap with an Evo III 16G since it comes closest to my goals without busting my wallet, though I have been researching other options and have pulled a blank so far as for bolt-on equipment.
Are there any other bolt-on options that spool up quickly enough that might satisfy or exceed my goal of 400hp?

I'm aware that I'd need upgraded injectors and a fuel pump, and possibly a fuel pressure regulator. I'd get the pump rewired while it's being installed. I've read that 550's might be good enough to push an Evo III 16G, but I've read of larger injectors used with this turbo and would like to maximize the performance of this turbo. I would prefer not having to replace the injectors again later down the line. I'm assuming the ideal fuel pump would be a 255lph, not sure if I'd need a high pressure one though. I am also uncertain whether or not I'd need an FPR.
What size of injectors would be ideal to support an Evo III 16G?

I would also need a manner in which to control the air/fuel ratio. I've been comparing a blow-through setup with a MAFT to something like an S-AFC and I honestly don't know enough about the pros/cons yet to tell which would be best suited for my application. I'd like to vent to atmosphere because I quite honestly enjoy the agressive noises I've heard from some loud BOV's. Needless to say, if this would not be truly functional and rather disadvantageous or costly without reasoning, I'd rather go with something better suited for this build. I'd buy the ideal BOV once the air/fuel tuning aspect is sorted out.
Can anyone please compare the pros/cons of S-AFC vs MAFT blow-through for me?
Are there any other cost-effective options for managing the air/fuel?

A front mount intercooler setup would be next on the list, along with hard piping which I'll probably get custom fabricated as well. One of my recent posts asked which size of piping would suit my needs and aparently 2.5" is suitable because it will not overly increase the spool-up lag.
Would installing a blow-through 3" MAFT not have an impact on the flow as it might "bottle-neck" within that area?
Would there be an ideal FMIC core size for my goal?

Lastly, I'd need gauges and other gadgets like a boost controller. That's the easy part. My research indicates I need a mechanical boost gauge (probably -30/30) because electronic would be a guess at best. An EGT/Pyrometer gauge is apparently a good visual indicator if I don't have my palm handy to log with but might not be exremely necessary from what I understand. I'd probably buy that over a flashy air/fuel gauge anyway. Opinons vary on the different gauges, but I know for sure boost is essential to avoid blowing sh!t up.
Suggestions?

Bear with me, I'm sure my knowledge isn't 100% yet but I'm working on it. I've probably missed some essential item here or there, so please let me know! I also have a modest budget but I can admit that I am a frugal individual, meaning I like to save what money I can. I truly look forward to this build.

Thanks for any input guys, I appreciate it!

I don't have a whole lot of time right now, so I hope you don't mind my answering directly only your questions in italics (without reading the whole topic).

What size of injectors would be ideal to support an Evo III 16G?

This will depend more on fuel control than on turbo size.
Generally, for injectors, the bigger the better (up to your FINAL goal) - so long as you can control them.

If you are running a stock ECU with a piggyback fuel controller such as S-AFC or MAF-T, you will not want to exceed 650cc by much, as you will run into some problems controlling the large injectors.

If you are running an EPROM ECU with DSMLink or another chip (with injector compensation), or a full stand-alone engine management (such as AEM EMS), go as big as you require for your final goal. These systems will be able to control the large injectors.

Can anyone please compare the pros/cons of S-AFC vs MAFT blow-through for me?

S-AFC allows for better fuel control as it has more adjustment points (fuel +/- % @ xRPM).
They are not mutually exclusive. A lot of people run the MAF-T with stock settings (or settings to match the injectors) and use the S-AFC for fine-tuning.

Are there any other cost-effective options for managing the air/fuel?

DSMLink is the best bang for buck, but there are too many options to list. Most common on DSMs will be EPROM ECU w/ DSMLink or another chip, or piggy-back such as S-AFC/MAF-T, or any combination thereof.

Would installing a blow-through 3" MAFT not have an impact on the flow as it might "bottle-neck" within that area?

Slightly, but it is far less of a restriction than the stock Karman MAFS of which it replaces.

I'll do my homework and read up on the EPROM ECU. I've got to determine whether my ECU is currently socketed or not, as well. In the meantime, any further input is greatly appreciated guys!

i can't possibly stress how important constant, regular boost leak tests are when upgrading.

with every part you remove, replace or upgrade, immediately test afterwards to avoid problems down the road.

a boost gauge should be without a doubt the very next item on your list as it's important to accurately measure how well your engine is performing now, even before starting to modify

sounds like you're off to a good start though

If your ECU is an EPROM, I would suggest a MAF-T with a peckerhead chip.

My setup is similar to what you want. I'll list my mods, which are hopefully putting me close to the 400WHP mark.

Peckerhead chip
MAF-T
Evo III 16G
Ported 2G Mani
Ported 1G Intake
Meth Injection
3" Turbo-back Exhaust
FMIC
HKS SSQV
272 cams
Ported 2G O2
Wally 255 (Stock 1G FPR will handle the pressure, you won't need an AFPR)
PTE 780cc injectors.

Meth injection will REALLY help, and it's cheap. The Devil's Own base kit is about $220.

You can use the MAF-T to richen/lean it out a bit if needed, and Steve's chips are nothing short of awesome.

Boost leak test and Base timing are VERY important.

Walbro 255 pump and some 680cc's will do you.

I've read up a bit on the Peckerhead chip after you mentioned it, Ryan. Seems very interesting but I'll be the first to admit that providing this information to Steve without any actual experience, rather than theoretical, seems next to impossible... I'll read mroe when I get back home tonight to try and figure it out.

I'll also look up meth injection while I'm at it, sounds interesting but potentially devestating.

Thanks again for the input, keep it coming guys!

If you're going to do meth, do it right. Buy a kit with a boost cutoff, which will reduce boost to a preset level if it senses the flow from the meth kit is slacking. Sure, meth can be potentially amazing, but at the same time, you don't want an injector to fail and lose the entire engine because you're weren't willing to get a kit with the valve.

A few good brand names are Aquamist, AEM, and Snow Performance.

And for tuning, you definitely want both EGT and AFR hooked to a wideband O2. I know, I know, that's two gauges, but remember you're effectively doubling the horsepower of an engine. A few bucks of prevention will save you knocking the crap out of your bearings or melting a valve early on.

There's not much to set, really...

Good technical info on settings is here.

- Rev Limiter RPM (if you want to change the stock rev limit)
- Idle Speed (probably don't need to change this)
- Fuel Cut (remove this if you want to make some real power)
- Injector Size Compensation (what injector cc will you be running?)
- Fuel Injector Deadtime (Steve or whoever makes your chip should calculate this from your injector size, so you may not need to specify)
- MAF Compensation (specify if you run a 1G MAFS or 2G MAFS, for MAF-T just say 1G MAFS)
- Fuel maps & timing maps (you should start with the stock maps)
- Stutterbox (optional, read up on this one...)
- Octane reset (removing this will make tuning easier as you won't be fighting with the ECU for timing)
- Increased MAF Hz logging (enable this, it allows you to read airflow with your logger at higher levels)
- Anything else, you should be fine to leave alone (stock settings).

See? Simple.

//edit
Regarding the EGT gauge: It is pretty useless until you have a good tune from other feedback such as a wideband O2 and knock sensor.
Once you're tuned, you will then know what your normal EGT is, and the EGT gauge will become invaluable!

Here's what my chip is set for:

800 Idle
5000 RPM Stutterbox
11.5:1 A/F Ratio
780cc Injectors (AKA -41 Global, 315ms Deadtime)
1G MAF
20 Deg max timing advance.

Steve has been doing this for over 10 years, and he knows from what you have, what you would need in a chip. Talk to him, he's VERY helpful. If you give him some crazy numbers, he's not going to burn the chip if it risks damaging your engine (i.e 13:1 A/F).

Don't get me wrong, I know the EGT is a useful tool, I meant that it may be redundant if I actually have my Palm in the cockpit the whole time - which I probably won't. I'm not opposed to getting the gauges which are necessary, I just don't want something insanely useless like the blinking air fuel crap. Wideband is decent, though, and a knock light would be excellent too. Good point!

Ryan, thanks for the info on your build. I might need to bug you some more if I choose this route eventually.

As for the methane, or any other upgrade, I tend to go with safe instead of sorry. I'd probably want to be as safe as possible no matter what components are installed in the car.

Even a blinkenlight A/F gauge is somewhat useful, but only in the same sense as an EGT. It can be used to monitor normal operation (and closed-loop tuning, if you have the eye for it). If you don't know what's normal for your car, the readings will mean nothing. I find mine to be useful, but if I had a gauge-type wideband it would occupy the space instead.

Knock lights are almost totally useless, however. A "red herring" most of the time when it's lit.
Use the logger for knock.

Ahem... methanol (methyl hydrate).
Not cow farts.

Just make sure you read up on upgrade paths. I know you are not under the assumption that you can slap a big turbo, some fuel mods and an FMIC and just GO, but you can get setup to run 25-30psi safely.

Spend the money in tools/equipment to monitor your engine. IMO, do that first, then upgrade. This way you will be able to see what your car's normal readings are at stock and compare them to a modded scenario.

Depending on your cash flow, get DSMLink, a Wideband and a MAP sensor. If not DSMLink, a good freaking logger.

Wideband + MAP = Accuracy. Accurate A/F readings as well as accurate boost readings. That's what you really need to know. Your logger will tell you if you are knocking and what your timing advance is.

If you want to get crazy, get an IAT sensor as well.

Aw, I seriously knew it was methanol. *sigh* I'll never live that one down.

I'm doing a lot of reading, so bear with me as I try to grasp the TON of knowledge needed before doing this properly. DSMLink seems versatile, kinda steep in price though. I'll do far more reading on that as well.

Get an EPROM for sure. Maybe run a peckerhead chip for a season if you can't afford dsmlink at first. That's what I did. You gotta have one of the two IMO. Even for the fuel cut elimination alone. Otherwise you can't run much over 16psi with a 16G.

Taking the coward's way out... A 1G with 300+whp would be a LOT of fun. Spend less money, learn some things, and make the jump to 400+ if things go smoothly and don't drain your wallet.

I know it sounds a bit off from normal, but I'd consider buying a good condition used short/long block or a JDM and do a slow rebuild on it as a side project. You'd end up spending a little less over time, and have an upgraded/ported engine. When I did mine (since I had to anyway) it felt SO much more powerful, even with stock turbo and boost...

I don't feel too enthusiastic about working on my nearly 20 year old parts which I know for certain I'd be replacing afterwards and might blow in the meantime, hence my willingness to dive into this project head first. It might be the cowards' way out, but I'd also like to think of it as cost efficient spending. I'm getting old and don't currently have to take others into account for my budgetting. I would really like driving a beast while I can truly enjoy it!


I've given some thought to rebuilding/upgrading a block myself... The only things stopping me from doing that right now is limited space and budget but, more importantly, lack of specific tools. I DO have a mechanic friend who would probably love to teach me things and rebuild the block wtih me, so that's a bonus. I'm pretty sure he has the tools necessary, but I'm certain I lack the "specialty" stuff. For example, I wouldn't port the engine with a dremel.


I've done some reading on the DSMLink and it seems highly flexible. The fact that I can tune the car on the spot with a laptop/Palm might balance out the huge difference in price of an excellent chip that may need to be replaced several times since the setting definitions would be something completely new to me. Definitely something to consider, especially if Steve would have a good idea of what would be necessary according to my mods list when completed. Convenient that the 1G DSMLink retains settings even if the battery is disconnected. I've looked over the airflow section of their website but still need to ask...
Does DSMLink eliminate the necessity of other airflow controllers? I don't think it does, just wanted to confirm that it would be best to have a secondary system for fine tuning per the suggestions I've read.

Ryan, I saw your post regarding the Punishment Racing website and went to have a look. I think their FMIC setup would be good for my application and their price is fantastic, so I'll be sure to check if anyone has feedback for us on your post. Their intake manifolds are interesting as well due to the potentially noticeable gains in power when properly tuned.


I've been pondering the Evo III 16G and I am slightly concerned with the "380hp rated" comment that keeps popping up. I've been unable to find a reliable source to compare several Evo III 16G powered DSMs to use as a reference.
I gather that 380hp would be the maximum output for this model of turbocharger, or is that an average of sorts?

I am trying to get a ballpark price for this 400hp goal. If it exceeds my budget by a longshot... I'll set some cheaper goals.

Here's what I have done to my 1G, wonder what WHP it will be?.

JDM stock 6-bolt low Km's
4bolt LSD
JDM C51PH AWD tranny 5-speed
fidanza alum flywheel
CFDF clutch, stock TOBearing
Full 3" mandrel bent aluminized exhaust
3" manaflow cat
Big 16G ported, polished and clipped by FP
1g manifold ported to match 7cm housing
2" - 2 1/4" intercooler piping from turbo to intake manifold
FMIC 3 1/2" x 30" x 10" approx, Bar & fin type
stock 1G BOV
2G MAFS, K&N with FP intake to turbo
780cc INJ
SAFC
255 HP walboro pump, re-wired.
AFPR
custom fuel line and fittings from filter to rail and to AFPR
Boost gauge
A/F gauge
EGT gauge
Eprom ECU socketed
Peckerhead chip with
> 780cc FIC compensation
> 2G MAF compensation
> 8500RPM rev limiter
> 5500RPM NLTS
> 5500RPM Studder Box
> octane reset
> IPW cap removal
> knock to stock boost gauge
> Fuel cut removed
Disconected BCS

Now I need some H2O injection, wideband O2, logger, and the salt off the #$%@ing roads.

Now I don't know what kind of HP this will result in, Anyone with more experience on here might have a better guess, cause I'm pretty interested too.

My guess would be 340WHP without the H2O injection, anyone else want to guess.

Bench racing sucks...



It does.
With DSMLink, you have full control of the maps for fine tuning, so there is no need for another fuel controller.

The invaluable feature of DSMLink is that not only do you get control of fuel maps, you also get to adjust the timing maps!
You can't do that with an S-AFC, MAF-T etc...

Rob, I noticed that feature and thought it was handy also. The fact that the DSMLink can control all these things without other components is phenomenal. I'll definitely have to check if my ECU is EPROM equipped. Oh, do I get bonus points for knowing what your avatar is from, Rob? That movie is awesome!


I'm not trying to bench race, though I think your comment was aimed at Malcolm's post... I'm trying to put a list of essentials together to tabulate costs to see if this 400hp build is feasable with my current budget.

Bench racing sucks especially with so many possibilities, agreed.., but I think I put up a pretty good list of things to concider when estimating parts cost, realiability, options, and HP gains.

I guess we don't discuss possible WHP anymore unless you have proof and witnesses.

I would say less than 300 @ the wheels cause of the size of your bottleneck IC piping Also you never mentioned how much boost you running so its hard to guess.

Since we're bench racing here I am 100% sure my full weight car with the 16g made well over 400HP at the wheels.

OK.... there you go, so now he has got a bench mark if he does anything like I did = 300WHP, if he's lucky,..

Lets have some fun at my expence and say I have 2 1/2" sections for intercooler piping, but the stock outlet on the B16G compressor side is the bottle neck of what 1 7/8" so as long as uniformley gets bigger, ah forget it.

Here we go...



Gates, my advice is to see what collection of parts is within your budget.
Most important is that all the parts compliment eachother.

If you do it that way, the HP # becomes somewhat arbitrary, as your next step would be to tune as much power as you can out of those parts.

It is impossible to come up with a set list of parts for any specific HP goal.
As stated: Too many variables.

The 400hp goal I mention throughout this post is to underline the fact that I'm not shooting for 8's. I know whatever I buy should compliment the other components.

A set list of parts is easy though, for any HP goal. For example, turbo, FMIC, fuel distribution/regulator, airflow control, exhaust/intake upgrades, etc. That's general enough and it gives me an idea of what to price out. The only specifics I really need to worry about at this point are what manner of tuning I would prefer (or find easier) and probably what turbo I want to buy. I can take the rest from there step by step.

After that, I'd probably figure out my fuel distribution to compensate for my choices. Injectors, pump, possibly a regulator - still not clear on that. I'd decide my airflow modifications during this step as well, such as FMIC, BOV, possibly an intake manifold upgrade, etc. Evidently I'd also want to install gauges. Items in this paragraph could probably be purchased out of order so long as they support all the other items nicely.

Fairly straightforward, I'm not looking for a magical list called "the secret to 400 horses" or whatever. Just trying to plan this the best way I can before committing to it. Figured I'd ask about that stuff here and make use of the members' knowledge and experience seeing as I've never done this before...

Actually, Gates... I meant MY way was the coward's way out. I'd love to buy a shell and motor and then just build the thing from scratch with all high-end gear with a 400-600whp goal... But a friend/relative of mine is doing something similar, and you know what happens to things at those power levels...

I'd rather have something that's 'fun enough' to drive on the street, and leave it at that. Not that 500whp on the street wouldn't be fun.. *Laugh*

Oh, that makes a lot more sense, Troy. Yeah, I'm familiar with the effects at higher power levels which is why I'm not aiming for much more than 400 horse. I don't THINK I'll destroy the internals around that range with proper tuning and vigilance...


I just asked Ziggy for a quote on a new Evo III 16G, preferably one that includes the necessary porting and has the upgraded wastegate flapper.

Once you get the basics (the things you are talking about) I would say a lot of it is just getting the parts working together properly and tuned. There are a ton of people out there that have monster turbos running mid 12's when they should be running 10's. And then there is someone like Reza who has a mid 12 second setup and he is running mid 11's because he has everything working properly.

I'd say you are definately on the right track with your mods, it should be a quick car. I reccomend bringing it to a reputable member after it is all assembled to get it running just right. I know that's what I want to do this season.

Too general.
That list could be for 200hp on a Geo Metro, or 600hp on a twin turbo Corvette!

There are so many different ways to get to 400hp, and so many variables just to get a number out of the machine, does everyone who spits that number really know what 400hp is? Hardly.
It's just a nice round number.

Generally, people who go to dynos don't have much of a budget constraint
If someone gives you a big hp #, and they look like they have a budget, don't believe them They probably have about 250WHP.

A 1/4mi goal is much better. You'll have a great number of subjects to look at and base your setup on.

Basically my point is, don't let a HP # get in the way.
A dyno is useless unless you're going to be on it for hours.
So, for the avgerage DSMer, all the HP noise is just that - noise.

I think we had a miscommunication somewhere, Rob. I WAS trying to make a general list so that I'd know what I have to price out. The horsepower I provided as an example because I figured it would give a clear idea of what I'm aiming at, but perhaps I should have said 11 seconds or less? Sorry for the mixup.

I don't plan on going to the Dyno every time I change something, but I wouldn't mind going at least once when everything is tuned and running in mint condition just to know the real numbers and not have to guesstimate, not to mention that I'd love to share the printout with the DSM community!

Either way, I am not looking for someone to say "go buy all this stuff and you'll be running 10's yo", but rather trying to get input on the parts I am looking at acquiring to ensure they suit my desired outcome. So I suppose feedback and/or suggestions regarding my project are the main reason for this thread. I am, after all, the one who will ultimately be biting the bullet when it comes time to pay. I also prefer doing my homework on all these items before slapping them into the mix for the simple fact that I really enjoy my car and want to know as much about it as possible.

And that is exactly why I said what I said

Same reason why I have never been to a dyno and never will. For all I care my car could be making 190 WHP. Who cares as along as it run's 12's, 11's, or 10's

A good friend of mines is building up a 2JZ right now, aiming for 600-800 WHP. If you want to be a dyno queen, go this route

Tried locating more info on timing adjustment using DSMLink using the search here as well as filtering through the info on their website. Can anyone drop a useful link please? I'd like to read up on that process to better understand it. Thanks in advance!

Gates, don't forget something in your budget. All this power is nice, but you have to be able to put it down to the ground and stop when it's over.

Don't forget about suspension, clutch and brakes!! The stock crap won't hold all that power.

Also, when you are talking about that much power, every little thing matters. You'll be tearing motor mounts with some hard launches, so look into that as well.

Good point Ryan, I've considered that as well. Already have a Bully stage 3 clutch installed. Brakes and suspension will be targetted after this project is done, or might be done at the same time. Depends how much money I have left over. Motor mounts are something I had not thought of though, appreciate that! Polyurethane motor mounts seem to be a safe bet, right?


FYI I've already read the link Rob provided earlier in this post regarding the DSMLink hex values and such but was unable to get more in-depth knowledge regarding the timing adjustment. I have a general idea of how it works but would like to know more about it.

My link was actually for EPROM editing such as Peckerhead chips, DSMChips (Keydiver), TMO etc...
These values are set when you burn the chip and are not changed "on the fly".

DSMLink is adjusted via laptop or handheld.
There are sliders to alter degrees of timing advance (+/-) at a number of rpm points. Same thing for fuel %.

http://www.dsmlink.com/screenshots.html

Yeah, I saw that page but didn't find it provided enough comprehensive information on determining how to modify your timing correctly. I'm not sure how to phrase my question otherwise. Please forgive!


Let's say someone knew nothing about this process, how would they find out more about it? I understand the principles theoretically but would be hard-pressed to try and do this on my own for the first time. Just an example so pardon me if it seems ridiculous, but if the timing was being advanced several degrees increasingly after 5000rpm for some reason, the user would just correct that by retarding the advance in this window throughout the problematic range?
*Edit: Adjusting for the optimal timing, of course, not just randomly guessing. So aiming for 5 degrees, for example, you'd retard increasingly higher after that point to match the value you want?

That's correct.
For instance, there is a timing spike in the stock maps around the 4000rpm mark. This may cause knock when combined with high boost. User would "tune" the timing and fuel at 4000rpm to solve the problem. Tuning is all trial and error. You won't know what the "optimal" timing is until you get there.

Gates one of the best things about DSMLink is you get access to their private user forums that have TONS of information on troubleshooting issues, and tuning your car. Pretty much any question you can think of has been dealt with on the forums and is only a search away. People have also created tuning guides which they have posted on there. I'd highly recommend it if you can fit it in the budget. In fact I'd recommend it as a first mod to pretty much anyone. The diagnostic and logging tools provided are invaluable when you start changing things.

That's actually pretty wicked. So, if I am right in assuming this, I can basically log the timing during a run or a hard drive and refer to the log to adjust accordingly? I figured it would be trial and error. By the way, I'd like to everyone for their contributions so far.

In my opinion...
If you're going to do a street car, get AEM.
If you're going to do a race car, do DSMLink (or SAFC, or whatever).

AEM, however, is much more expensive (roughly $1500 to DSMLink's $750).