What?

I'm sorry Mike, but have you used either?

I hope you mean the other way around. AEM is OVERKILL for a street car on a budget. DSMLink is fine for a street car, as a matter of fact, most upgrade to AEM from DSMLink as DSMLink is limited in a lot of things (Injector size, cannot control dual rails, RPM points, timing adjustment, etc).

DSMLink is great for a street car, and it's pretty accurate. If your readings are off (AirflowPerRev, Timing, Boost) it's telling you something (Base timing off, fuel pressure, boost leaks).

You can be set with dsmlink for less than 600 bucks too.

Heh. 600whp and a 14 second timeslip...because the tires were spinning so much you never GO anywhere.

A dyno is good for establishing a baseline, and for comparison after making major upgrades. But at what it would cost... Yikes!

A bigger turbo can definitely be a crutch, or even a hindrance as it encourages lazy tuning, but for the price of them these days I'd have to say that a 16g would seem rather small. You don't need anything watermelon-sized, but a T3/T4 or FP Red, etc... is definitely doable for not alot of money anymore.

I'd sit back, take my time (since I'd have that luxury now) and pick off cheap (but good) used parts as they came up for most of the stuff.

Nah, Ryan. This is the internet, so I just make random assertions and hope no one notices. And if anyone catches wind, I quickly sw1tch 2 l33t sp34k, y0.

I actually agree with a statement you have, but maintain my stance. AEM is overkill for a street car on a budget, but as this is an open discussion (he doesn't have to buy anything we suggest, which totally takes away from me pushing pink undercar neon) I mentioned my preference for AEM overall.

I'm currently running DSMLink (2G, v2), and I find the limitations of the 2D (RPM-fuel) is a bit rudimentary. It gives no control of tip-in/tip-out (useful on large injectors). This often means that previous RPM fuels need to be richer than normal, a sloppy way of accounting for ti/to. The greater the differential between cruise and WOT boost, the greater a gray area for fuel mismanagement. Call me anal, but AEMs greater control is top-of-the-line.

However, if you're on a budget, yes, Peckerhead, SAFC, and DSMLink are great. That's why I previously stated the cost differential. Only Gates can decide, though I hope if he gets DSMLink, he gets V2.

It should be noted that when I visited Marco, he was doing up a high powered car using just SAFC. It should also be noted that Kevin Marcoux, who shoved a rod through his engine and t-case and ended up parting out, was also using SAFC and wishes he'd bought DSMLink at the very least. To each their own.

There you go.

Yes, AEM has far superior engine management characteristics about it than DSMLink, however for an awesome program that won't break the bank, DSMLink is where it's at.

Just wait till V3 comes out.

Ya... V3 is so tempting it hurts.
Do I go AEM now... only to have them complete it right after I spend the money?

No.

When is DSMLink V3 due out, Ryan? Also, I am waiting on an update from Ziggy regarding my PM for a quote on the turbo. I think I remember reading that he was having some rough personal issues so, out of consideration, I don't want to pressure him much.

It's due out about a month after the second coming of Christ.

Ah, so I shouldn't put this whole project on hold, then.

Alright, Ziggy got back to me with a quote on a new MHI Evo III 16G with the option for the upgraded flapper for a bit extra. I gather that's a good investment because it should help prevent boost creep. The turbo he quoted me on doesn't include porting or clipping, however, though the price is still better than what I've been able to find myself. Porting is no big deal, I can get that done or do it myself. The clipping is another story, though.
I'm not sure of the gains I might actually notice if it were clipped, but I'd assume it might increase spool response and flow slightly?

On a side note, I've also done a bit of research on the "Sleeper" 16g after it was mentioned but have not been able to find in-depth details regarding specifications to compare to the MHI Evo III 16G.
Does anyone know where to find specs for the "Sleeper" to compare to the MHI Evo III?
Am I mislead in believing the Sleeper comes with a thicker, heavier housing that may resist cracking moreso than the MHI Evo III?

Lastly, I am pretty sure I am going to get the Punishment Racing 1G Intercooler Kit while there is a group buy being organized by Ryan Laliberté. Seems like a smokin' deal.
Thoughts regarding this kit for my application? Pros/Cons?
I figure there may be a little lag increase but not much, if anything, else.

I think it might be wise to note that I'd like my build to be responsive for the street and would like to indicate that I don't plan on exceeding the speed limit massively to make use of giant, slow-to-respond turbochargers. Strip functionality is secondary and would be sweet, and I'm sure I can crank out some decent times with what I have in mind.

Just go with a plain jane Evo 16g. Reza seemed to have a good run with his and he hadn't touched a thing on it.

The upgrade flapper might be a good idea if you run 3" exhaust and want to keep the boost around 15 psi. Also you could just run 2.5" exhaust and likely have no problems. I'm sure there is people running 3" with no problems at the same time but I have heard of boost creep issues.

*Edit: From the extensive research I've done, I can't justify the cost of the Sleeper 16g versus the minimal gains. I'd like to get more feedback regarding differences between clipped/regular MHI Evo III 16g though.

Adam, I have a 3" exhaust already installed, so I figured the upgraded flapper would be nice.

Also, I've jumped into the group buy for that Punishment Racing 1G Intercooler Kit. Figured I might as well at that price considering I KNOW I need to replace my SMIC right now anyway and the bonus is that it comes with all necessary piping. I believe my fans might need to be replaced with slimmer versions, but I've read far too many opinions on different boards about reputable brands. I'd have bought their fan/radiator combo also but my rad is BRAND NEW, so...
Anyone able to suggest some quality slim fans off the top of their head?

I stock the Flex-A-Lite, but can also get Maradyne...

Gates, I trapped 120mph on a regular evo 16g, full weight car, no porting or bigger flapper. This is about the most you will get out of it if your lucky. I am still convinced it has more though, but don't plan on proving it as I have changed my setup now.

IMO, if this is the route you want to take and are planning on making lots of power, just crank the boost up and don't bother with the bigger flapper. It will be very hard to make 400HP at just 20 pounds of boost.

Also, you don't need a slim fan to run this turbo. A single stock one will be fine and won't touch the turbo or j-pipe.

Thanks for the responses, guys. Reza, were you able to crank that much out of your turbo without modifying the motors' internals much? Also, boost creep won't be an issue with a 3" exhaust at higher boost levels with the regular flapper? If not, I don't see why I would upgrade, either!

Thanks for the advice, you're an inspiration.

Ziggy, I'll wait to see how the FMIC kit fits before following up on either brand of fan. Once I've worked out the turbo details, you'll be hearing from me to order one up!

Yes, 11.6@120 on a bone stock untouched motor. Just the balance shafts removed and cams, although I did run 11.85 with the stock cams as well. Also I always ran upto 30 psi daily on ultra94 pump gas and water/meth injection.
Same setup at the track as well.

Once you get to the point of running over 25 psi all the time, boost creep will be the last of your worries. Instead it will be the opposite effect. The boost will be falling off fast by redline, i.e. it won't hold 30 psi to redline.
This is the point where a bigger flapper will not help at all.

Gosh I wish that turbo would creep, but what more could you expect when your squeezing the breath out of it.

Right on. Much appreciated, my good sir. I might bother you for details on your water/meth injection setup if you don't mind. I've read up on both but find the task daunting to build myself.

The water/meth is just a basic Devils Own kit from Ziggy, around $200. You don't really need to build one as everything is included in the kit.

I was nervous about water/meth also, but it is a really straight forward install if you get the whole kit.

If you can wire in a sterio, you can plumb in water/meth.

Nice, Randy. SOLD! Best explanation and motivational encouragement EVER, seriously.


Reza, I'll bug you more about the injection stuff when I actually get to installing it. I assume it's safe to put that portion of this build on the backburner until the other stuff is up and running.

Updating this thread to mention that I am in contact with Ziggy for the Punishment Racing FMIC kit. I'm leaning heavily towards getting a new MHI EvoIII 16g from Ziggy as well, but will confirm that after doing a bit more research. I'm also talking to a local Club DSM member who owns DSMLink to determine if that's the right route for me.

I'll be purchasing the fuel system upgrades at some point in the next month or so, probably going to go with a 250 pump and will re-wire at the same time. Haven't confirmed the injector size yet, but I've read there are different styles to choose from and would like to get some input regarding differences between pin-style (like GMs have I think) as opposed to ball-style (stock DSM). Also considering an FPR but not sure if it's necessary.

I am pretty sure I'm decided on which gauges I am going to go with, so that's not an issue, and I'm going to slap on a boost controller at the same time for good measure. I'll probably hold off on an aftermarket BOV for now, at least until I have the new turbo and supporting mods.

A minor detail to note is that I replaced my head when rebuilding my engine and the replacement head, bought and shipped to me from our own Mike Jackson, had a "3 angle valve job". I've honestly forgotten what exactly that means and can't find a good explanation using the search tool. Trying to Google this gives me way too many hits to sift through. Anyone care to clarify just so I can refresh my memory and stop wringing my brain for the answer?

Valve angles, I think paragraph four has your answer.

Thank you Rob, that's exactly what I needed to read.

A 190 Wally with a rewire should do you just fine for your fuel. You won't need an AFPR with it, depending on what boost you will be running.

Well, I'm sure I won't initially try to crank the boost but I'd eventually like to get the most out of the turbo. Depending on which 190 you'd suggest, would it not max out beyond what the EvoIII 16g can handle? If so, I think you're right.

Theoretically, a 190 L/h will supply enough fuel to run 790cc injectors at 100% duty cycle before it falls off.

I'm on the fence with whether or not an AFPR is required when running a 190. Some will say a 190 does over-run the stock FPR.
I like to have one just so that I can control my fuel pressure for tuning purposes. You can't really go wrong by putting one in.

Alright, considering the 255lph HP pump so I don't need to upgrade again in the future. The big question... Do I really need a fuel pressure regulator? I've heard many differing opinions pro or con...

I've been told by many that with a 255 you will definately need a FPR. Have yet to be told that it's not necessary.

Then again, I'm still pretty newb to all these parts so I guess take it with a grain of salt.

Ju

That's the thing, I've heard either I do need a regulator or I don't from several very reliable sources...

I ran for many years with just a HP 255 pump, no aftermarket fuel pressure regulator, and basic performance upgrades. It will run and drive fine. When you want to start doing some proper tuning and make some serious power, get one.

Thanks Reza. Sounds like a plan.

Edit: Probably going to redo the engine hoses/lines early this season as well. After 18 years, some of them are showing a little wear and tear. Preventative maintenance FTW.

Reza, I am a little surprised, because I thought I had read often enough that the 255HP pump NEEDED a fuel pressure regulator. I am certainly not going to question your knowledge, as you OBVIOUSLY know your stuff, but is there any chance you are talking about a REGULAR 255, not the High Pressure 255?
I would just hate to sell someone a pump they can't use, or can't use without spending another couple hundred bucks....

Ziggy, yes a 255 HP pump does need a regulator if you want to do it right. Back in the days a lot of guys would just toss them in without a regulator, put the boost up, and it "seemed" to be fine.

You will not get any crazy driveability issues like stumbling or misfiring, maybe just shitty gas mileage and running extra rich.
So yea, it will still drive fine and all but once you want to REALLY start tuning the car and want to know/adjust fuel pressure, it will help then.

I would rather have a 255HP pump with stock regulator, than just the stock fuel pump and stock regulator

So Reza, did you run that 255 on your 11 second pass with the EVO III. I ask because I'm not running an AFPR with my 255. I don't think it will be a problem, just want to make sure.

Ryan, I've had my Aeromotive FPR installed for many years now, including all 11 second passes. I think I installed it when I got around the high 12's mark.

The deadtime and compensation on the keydiver chip I run now also takes into consideration the base fuel pressure I run.

The 255HP flows ~1.5GPH more than the plain 255 at stock idle fuel pressure.

I run a plain 255, with a stock FPR.

My fuel trims are all to the lean side if I don't add fuel through the ECU somehow.

I have yet to see any actual DATA (ie: fuel trim results) from ANYONE who claims you NEED an AFPR to run a 255 pump of any kind.

Feel free to draw your own conclusions from this.

An AFPR allows you to easily add a gauge or sending unit, so that you could monitor your fuel pressure.

I suppose data on this (fuel rail psi) is sparce since you would rarely find someone running a fuel pressure gauge without an AFPR. It usually requires a fancy banjo bolt (included in some complete gauge kits, like the B&M POS), and at that point you just might as well have an AFPR too.

As for trims - it's something that would have to be tested for specifically (before/after pump install), as we all know how much tuning and other changes happen during modding. You don't just "throw on a pump".
Gates, do you plan to have a logger before and after your pump install? Hint hint...

I agree Rob, but if the 255 "overruns" the stock FPR you'd have a low fuel trim pegged at 81. Unless you removed a bunch of fuel at idle somehow.

It REALLY doesn't take a lot of extra fuel to bottom out the low trim.

See, I'm running off of a lot of fast people who are running the plain 255 (which I have) and no AFPR.

Like Reza said, until you start doing some serious tuning, where every drop of fuel counts, a 255 can be run no problem on a stock 1G FPR.