I'm preparing for some upgrades this coming spring. I've done some research and bought several parts already, either currently installed or pending purchase of the large portion of parts remaining to complete my setup. My goal is about 400 horsepower. It should be noted that I have a Palm with MMCD (I think that's the program) to log my car as I go along but do not have any other means of datalogging. I've tried searching as much as I can and now I find myself needing to ask for some answers and figure you guys can probably give me some very helpful insight. You always do!


Before the question arises, I own a '90 AWD Talon.

So far I've installed a Bully Stage 3 clutch, had a 3" turbo-back exhaust custom fabricated, and my motor was rebuilt including a new water pump and has since been broken-in. I've got a ported 3" Evo III o² housing and ported 2g exhaust manifold collecting dust in my garage. I've replaced my stock radiator and alternator since they were pooched, and now I have boost leak due to my sidemount. This leak has motivated me to upgrade rather than replace stock parts.

So with the 400hp goal in mind, I'm tempted to upgrade the leftover stock parts so that I don't get any surprises down the line. I currently have a 14b which I was hoping to swap with an Evo III 16G since it comes closest to my goals without busting my wallet, though I have been researching other options and have pulled a blank so far as for bolt-on equipment.
Are there any other bolt-on options that spool up quickly enough that might satisfy or exceed my goal of 400hp?

I'm aware that I'd need upgraded injectors and a fuel pump, and possibly a fuel pressure regulator. I'd get the pump rewired while it's being installed. I've read that 550's might be good enough to push an Evo III 16G, but I've read of larger injectors used with this turbo and would like to maximize the performance of this turbo. I would prefer not having to replace the injectors again later down the line. I'm assuming the ideal fuel pump would be a 255lph, not sure if I'd need a high pressure one though. I am also uncertain whether or not I'd need an FPR.
What size of injectors would be ideal to support an Evo III 16G?

I would also need a manner in which to control the air/fuel ratio. I've been comparing a blow-through setup with a MAFT to something like an S-AFC and I honestly don't know enough about the pros/cons yet to tell which would be best suited for my application. I'd like to vent to atmosphere because I quite honestly enjoy the agressive noises I've heard from some loud BOV's. Needless to say, if this would not be truly functional and rather disadvantageous or costly without reasoning, I'd rather go with something better suited for this build. I'd buy the ideal BOV once the air/fuel tuning aspect is sorted out.
Can anyone please compare the pros/cons of S-AFC vs MAFT blow-through for me?
Are there any other cost-effective options for managing the air/fuel?

A front mount intercooler setup would be next on the list, along with hard piping which I'll probably get custom fabricated as well. One of my recent posts asked which size of piping would suit my needs and aparently 2.5" is suitable because it will not overly increase the spool-up lag.
Would installing a blow-through 3" MAFT not have an impact on the flow as it might "bottle-neck" within that area?
Would there be an ideal FMIC core size for my goal?

Lastly, I'd need gauges and other gadgets like a boost controller. That's the easy part. My research indicates I need a mechanical boost gauge (probably -30/30) because electronic would be a guess at best. An EGT/Pyrometer gauge is apparently a good visual indicator if I don't have my palm handy to log with but might not be exremely necessary from what I understand. I'd probably buy that over a flashy air/fuel gauge anyway. Opinons vary on the different gauges, but I know for sure boost is essential to avoid blowing sh!t up.
Suggestions?

Bear with me, I'm sure my knowledge isn't 100% yet but I'm working on it. I've probably missed some essential item here or there, so please let me know! I also have a modest budget but I can admit that I am a frugal individual, meaning I like to save what money I can. I truly look forward to this build.

Thanks for any input guys, I appreciate it!

I don't have a whole lot of time right now, so I hope you don't mind my answering directly only your questions in italics (without reading the whole topic).

What size of injectors would be ideal to support an Evo III 16G?

This will depend more on fuel control than on turbo size.
Generally, for injectors, the bigger the better (up to your FINAL goal) - so long as you can control them.

If you are running a stock ECU with a piggyback fuel controller such as S-AFC or MAF-T, you will not want to exceed 650cc by much, as you will run into some problems controlling the large injectors.

If you are running an EPROM ECU with DSMLink or another chip (with injector compensation), or a full stand-alone engine management (such as AEM EMS), go as big as you require for your final goal. These systems will be able to control the large injectors.

Can anyone please compare the pros/cons of S-AFC vs MAFT blow-through for me?

S-AFC allows for better fuel control as it has more adjustment points (fuel +/- % @ xRPM).
They are not mutually exclusive. A lot of people run the MAF-T with stock settings (or settings to match the injectors) and use the S-AFC for fine-tuning.

Are there any other cost-effective options for managing the air/fuel?

DSMLink is the best bang for buck, but there are too many options to list. Most common on DSMs will be EPROM ECU w/ DSMLink or another chip, or piggy-back such as S-AFC/MAF-T, or any combination thereof.

Would installing a blow-through 3" MAFT not have an impact on the flow as it might "bottle-neck" within that area?

Slightly, but it is far less of a restriction than the stock Karman MAFS of which it replaces.

I'll do my homework and read up on the EPROM ECU. I've got to determine whether my ECU is currently socketed or not, as well. In the meantime, any further input is greatly appreciated guys!

i can't possibly stress how important constant, regular boost leak tests are when upgrading.

with every part you remove, replace or upgrade, immediately test afterwards to avoid problems down the road.

a boost gauge should be without a doubt the very next item on your list as it's important to accurately measure how well your engine is performing now, even before starting to modify

sounds like you're off to a good start though

If your ECU is an EPROM, I would suggest a MAF-T with a peckerhead chip.

My setup is similar to what you want. I'll list my mods, which are hopefully putting me close to the 400WHP mark.

Peckerhead chip
MAF-T
Evo III 16G
Ported 2G Mani
Ported 1G Intake
Meth Injection
3" Turbo-back Exhaust
FMIC
HKS SSQV
272 cams
Ported 2G O2
Wally 255 (Stock 1G FPR will handle the pressure, you won't need an AFPR)
PTE 780cc injectors.

Meth injection will REALLY help, and it's cheap. The Devil's Own base kit is about $220.

You can use the MAF-T to richen/lean it out a bit if needed, and Steve's chips are nothing short of awesome.

Boost leak test and Base timing are VERY important.

Walbro 255 pump and some 680cc's will do you.

I've read up a bit on the Peckerhead chip after you mentioned it, Ryan. Seems very interesting but I'll be the first to admit that providing this information to Steve without any actual experience, rather than theoretical, seems next to impossible... I'll read mroe when I get back home tonight to try and figure it out.

I'll also look up meth injection while I'm at it, sounds interesting but potentially devestating.

Thanks again for the input, keep it coming guys!

If you're going to do meth, do it right. Buy a kit with a boost cutoff, which will reduce boost to a preset level if it senses the flow from the meth kit is slacking. Sure, meth can be potentially amazing, but at the same time, you don't want an injector to fail and lose the entire engine because you're weren't willing to get a kit with the valve.

A few good brand names are Aquamist, AEM, and Snow Performance.

And for tuning, you definitely want both EGT and AFR hooked to a wideband O2. I know, I know, that's two gauges, but remember you're effectively doubling the horsepower of an engine. A few bucks of prevention will save you knocking the crap out of your bearings or melting a valve early on.

There's not much to set, really...

Good technical info on settings is here.

- Rev Limiter RPM (if you want to change the stock rev limit)
- Idle Speed (probably don't need to change this)
- Fuel Cut (remove this if you want to make some real power)
- Injector Size Compensation (what injector cc will you be running?)
- Fuel Injector Deadtime (Steve or whoever makes your chip should calculate this from your injector size, so you may not need to specify)
- MAF Compensation (specify if you run a 1G MAFS or 2G MAFS, for MAF-T just say 1G MAFS)
- Fuel maps & timing maps (you should start with the stock maps)
- Stutterbox (optional, read up on this one...)
- Octane reset (removing this will make tuning easier as you won't be fighting with the ECU for timing)
- Increased MAF Hz logging (enable this, it allows you to read airflow with your logger at higher levels)
- Anything else, you should be fine to leave alone (stock settings).

See? Simple.

//edit
Regarding the EGT gauge: It is pretty useless until you have a good tune from other feedback such as a wideband O2 and knock sensor.
Once you're tuned, you will then know what your normal EGT is, and the EGT gauge will become invaluable!

Here's what my chip is set for:

800 Idle
5000 RPM Stutterbox
11.5:1 A/F Ratio
780cc Injectors (AKA -41 Global, 315ms Deadtime)
1G MAF
20 Deg max timing advance.

Steve has been doing this for over 10 years, and he knows from what you have, what you would need in a chip. Talk to him, he's VERY helpful. If you give him some crazy numbers, he's not going to burn the chip if it risks damaging your engine (i.e 13:1 A/F).

Don't get me wrong, I know the EGT is a useful tool, I meant that it may be redundant if I actually have my Palm in the cockpit the whole time - which I probably won't. I'm not opposed to getting the gauges which are necessary, I just don't want something insanely useless like the blinking air fuel crap. Wideband is decent, though, and a knock light would be excellent too. Good point!

Ryan, thanks for the info on your build. I might need to bug you some more if I choose this route eventually.

As for the methane, or any other upgrade, I tend to go with safe instead of sorry. I'd probably want to be as safe as possible no matter what components are installed in the car.

Even a blinkenlight A/F gauge is somewhat useful, but only in the same sense as an EGT. It can be used to monitor normal operation (and closed-loop tuning, if you have the eye for it). If you don't know what's normal for your car, the readings will mean nothing. I find mine to be useful, but if I had a gauge-type wideband it would occupy the space instead.

Knock lights are almost totally useless, however. A "red herring" most of the time when it's lit.
Use the logger for knock.

Ahem... methanol (methyl hydrate).
Not cow farts.

Just make sure you read up on upgrade paths. I know you are not under the assumption that you can slap a big turbo, some fuel mods and an FMIC and just GO, but you can get setup to run 25-30psi safely.

Spend the money in tools/equipment to monitor your engine. IMO, do that first, then upgrade. This way you will be able to see what your car's normal readings are at stock and compare them to a modded scenario.

Depending on your cash flow, get DSMLink, a Wideband and a MAP sensor. If not DSMLink, a good freaking logger.

Wideband + MAP = Accuracy. Accurate A/F readings as well as accurate boost readings. That's what you really need to know. Your logger will tell you if you are knocking and what your timing advance is.

If you want to get crazy, get an IAT sensor as well.

Aw, I seriously knew it was methanol. *sigh* I'll never live that one down.

I'm doing a lot of reading, so bear with me as I try to grasp the TON of knowledge needed before doing this properly. DSMLink seems versatile, kinda steep in price though. I'll do far more reading on that as well.

Get an EPROM for sure. Maybe run a peckerhead chip for a season if you can't afford dsmlink at first. That's what I did. You gotta have one of the two IMO. Even for the fuel cut elimination alone. Otherwise you can't run much over 16psi with a 16G.

Taking the coward's way out... A 1G with 300+whp would be a LOT of fun. Spend less money, learn some things, and make the jump to 400+ if things go smoothly and don't drain your wallet.

I know it sounds a bit off from normal, but I'd consider buying a good condition used short/long block or a JDM and do a slow rebuild on it as a side project. You'd end up spending a little less over time, and have an upgraded/ported engine. When I did mine (since I had to anyway) it felt SO much more powerful, even with stock turbo and boost...

I don't feel too enthusiastic about working on my nearly 20 year old parts which I know for certain I'd be replacing afterwards and might blow in the meantime, hence my willingness to dive into this project head first. It might be the cowards' way out, but I'd also like to think of it as cost efficient spending. I'm getting old and don't currently have to take others into account for my budgetting. I would really like driving a beast while I can truly enjoy it!


I've given some thought to rebuilding/upgrading a block myself... The only things stopping me from doing that right now is limited space and budget but, more importantly, lack of specific tools. I DO have a mechanic friend who would probably love to teach me things and rebuild the block wtih me, so that's a bonus. I'm pretty sure he has the tools necessary, but I'm certain I lack the "specialty" stuff. For example, I wouldn't port the engine with a dremel.


I've done some reading on the DSMLink and it seems highly flexible. The fact that I can tune the car on the spot with a laptop/Palm might balance out the huge difference in price of an excellent chip that may need to be replaced several times since the setting definitions would be something completely new to me. Definitely something to consider, especially if Steve would have a good idea of what would be necessary according to my mods list when completed. Convenient that the 1G DSMLink retains settings even if the battery is disconnected. I've looked over the airflow section of their website but still need to ask...
Does DSMLink eliminate the necessity of other airflow controllers? I don't think it does, just wanted to confirm that it would be best to have a secondary system for fine tuning per the suggestions I've read.

Ryan, I saw your post regarding the Punishment Racing website and went to have a look. I think their FMIC setup would be good for my application and their price is fantastic, so I'll be sure to check if anyone has feedback for us on your post. Their intake manifolds are interesting as well due to the potentially noticeable gains in power when properly tuned.


I've been pondering the Evo III 16G and I am slightly concerned with the "380hp rated" comment that keeps popping up. I've been unable to find a reliable source to compare several Evo III 16G powered DSMs to use as a reference.
I gather that 380hp would be the maximum output for this model of turbocharger, or is that an average of sorts?

I am trying to get a ballpark price for this 400hp goal. If it exceeds my budget by a longshot... I'll set some cheaper goals.

Here's what I have done to my 1G, wonder what WHP it will be?.

JDM stock 6-bolt low Km's
4bolt LSD
JDM C51PH AWD tranny 5-speed
fidanza alum flywheel
CFDF clutch, stock TOBearing
Full 3" mandrel bent aluminized exhaust
3" manaflow cat
Big 16G ported, polished and clipped by FP
1g manifold ported to match 7cm housing
2" - 2 1/4" intercooler piping from turbo to intake manifold
FMIC 3 1/2" x 30" x 10" approx, Bar & fin type
stock 1G BOV
2G MAFS, K&N with FP intake to turbo
780cc INJ
SAFC
255 HP walboro pump, re-wired.
AFPR
custom fuel line and fittings from filter to rail and to AFPR
Boost gauge
A/F gauge
EGT gauge
Eprom ECU socketed
Peckerhead chip with
> 780cc FIC compensation
> 2G MAF compensation
> 8500RPM rev limiter
> 5500RPM NLTS
> 5500RPM Studder Box
> octane reset
> IPW cap removal
> knock to stock boost gauge
> Fuel cut removed
Disconected BCS

Now I need some H2O injection, wideband O2, logger, and the salt off the #$%@ing roads.

Now I don't know what kind of HP this will result in, Anyone with more experience on here might have a better guess, cause I'm pretty interested too.

My guess would be 340WHP without the H2O injection, anyone else want to guess.

Bench racing sucks...



It does.
With DSMLink, you have full control of the maps for fine tuning, so there is no need for another fuel controller.

The invaluable feature of DSMLink is that not only do you get control of fuel maps, you also get to adjust the timing maps!
You can't do that with an S-AFC, MAF-T etc...

Rob, I noticed that feature and thought it was handy also. The fact that the DSMLink can control all these things without other components is phenomenal. I'll definitely have to check if my ECU is EPROM equipped. Oh, do I get bonus points for knowing what your avatar is from, Rob? That movie is awesome!


I'm not trying to bench race, though I think your comment was aimed at Malcolm's post... I'm trying to put a list of essentials together to tabulate costs to see if this 400hp build is feasable with my current budget.

Bench racing sucks especially with so many possibilities, agreed.., but I think I put up a pretty good list of things to concider when estimating parts cost, realiability, options, and HP gains.

I guess we don't discuss possible WHP anymore unless you have proof and witnesses.

I would say less than 300 @ the wheels cause of the size of your bottleneck IC piping Also you never mentioned how much boost you running so its hard to guess.

Since we're bench racing here I am 100% sure my full weight car with the 16g made well over 400HP at the wheels.

OK.... there you go, so now he has got a bench mark if he does anything like I did = 300WHP, if he's lucky,..

Lets have some fun at my expence and say I have 2 1/2" sections for intercooler piping, but the stock outlet on the B16G compressor side is the bottle neck of what 1 7/8" so as long as uniformley gets bigger, ah forget it.

Here we go...



Gates, my advice is to see what collection of parts is within your budget.
Most important is that all the parts compliment eachother.

If you do it that way, the HP # becomes somewhat arbitrary, as your next step would be to tune as much power as you can out of those parts.

It is impossible to come up with a set list of parts for any specific HP goal.
As stated: Too many variables.

The 400hp goal I mention throughout this post is to underline the fact that I'm not shooting for 8's. I know whatever I buy should compliment the other components.

A set list of parts is easy though, for any HP goal. For example, turbo, FMIC, fuel distribution/regulator, airflow control, exhaust/intake upgrades, etc. That's general enough and it gives me an idea of what to price out. The only specifics I really need to worry about at this point are what manner of tuning I would prefer (or find easier) and probably what turbo I want to buy. I can take the rest from there step by step.

After that, I'd probably figure out my fuel distribution to compensate for my choices. Injectors, pump, possibly a regulator - still not clear on that. I'd decide my airflow modifications during this step as well, such as FMIC, BOV, possibly an intake manifold upgrade, etc. Evidently I'd also want to install gauges. Items in this paragraph could probably be purchased out of order so long as they support all the other items nicely.

Fairly straightforward, I'm not looking for a magical list called "the secret to 400 horses" or whatever. Just trying to plan this the best way I can before committing to it. Figured I'd ask about that stuff here and make use of the members' knowledge and experience seeing as I've never done this before...

Actually, Gates... I meant MY way was the coward's way out. I'd love to buy a shell and motor and then just build the thing from scratch with all high-end gear with a 400-600whp goal... But a friend/relative of mine is doing something similar, and you know what happens to things at those power levels...

I'd rather have something that's 'fun enough' to drive on the street, and leave it at that. Not that 500whp on the street wouldn't be fun.. *Laugh*

Oh, that makes a lot more sense, Troy. Yeah, I'm familiar with the effects at higher power levels which is why I'm not aiming for much more than 400 horse. I don't THINK I'll destroy the internals around that range with proper tuning and vigilance...


I just asked Ziggy for a quote on a new Evo III 16G, preferably one that includes the necessary porting and has the upgraded wastegate flapper.

Once you get the basics (the things you are talking about) I would say a lot of it is just getting the parts working together properly and tuned. There are a ton of people out there that have monster turbos running mid 12's when they should be running 10's. And then there is someone like Reza who has a mid 12 second setup and he is running mid 11's because he has everything working properly.

I'd say you are definately on the right track with your mods, it should be a quick car. I reccomend bringing it to a reputable member after it is all assembled to get it running just right. I know that's what I want to do this season.

Too general.
That list could be for 200hp on a Geo Metro, or 600hp on a twin turbo Corvette!

There are so many different ways to get to 400hp, and so many variables just to get a number out of the machine, does everyone who spits that number really know what 400hp is? Hardly.
It's just a nice round number.

Generally, people who go to dynos don't have much of a budget constraint
If someone gives you a big hp #, and they look like they have a budget, don't believe them They probably have about 250WHP.

A 1/4mi goal is much better. You'll have a great number of subjects to look at and base your setup on.

Basically my point is, don't let a HP # get in the way.
A dyno is useless unless you're going to be on it for hours.
So, for the avgerage DSMer, all the HP noise is just that - noise.

I think we had a miscommunication somewhere, Rob. I WAS trying to make a general list so that I'd know what I have to price out. The horsepower I provided as an example because I figured it would give a clear idea of what I'm aiming at, but perhaps I should have said 11 seconds or less? Sorry for the mixup.

I don't plan on going to the Dyno every time I change something, but I wouldn't mind going at least once when everything is tuned and running in mint condition just to know the real numbers and not have to guesstimate, not to mention that I'd love to share the printout with the DSM community!

Either way, I am not looking for someone to say "go buy all this stuff and you'll be running 10's yo", but rather trying to get input on the parts I am looking at acquiring to ensure they suit my desired outcome. So I suppose feedback and/or suggestions regarding my project are the main reason for this thread. I am, after all, the one who will ultimately be biting the bullet when it comes time to pay. I also prefer doing my homework on all these items before slapping them into the mix for the simple fact that I really enjoy my car and want to know as much about it as possible.

And that is exactly why I said what I said

Same reason why I have never been to a dyno and never will. For all I care my car could be making 190 WHP. Who cares as along as it run's 12's, 11's, or 10's

A good friend of mines is building up a 2JZ right now, aiming for 600-800 WHP. If you want to be a dyno queen, go this route

Tried locating more info on timing adjustment using DSMLink using the search here as well as filtering through the info on their website. Can anyone drop a useful link please? I'd like to read up on that process to better understand it. Thanks in advance!

Gates, don't forget something in your budget. All this power is nice, but you have to be able to put it down to the ground and stop when it's over.

Don't forget about suspension, clutch and brakes!! The stock crap won't hold all that power.

Also, when you are talking about that much power, every little thing matters. You'll be tearing motor mounts with some hard launches, so look into that as well.

Good point Ryan, I've considered that as well. Already have a Bully stage 3 clutch installed. Brakes and suspension will be targetted after this project is done, or might be done at the same time. Depends how much money I have left over. Motor mounts are something I had not thought of though, appreciate that! Polyurethane motor mounts seem to be a safe bet, right?


FYI I've already read the link Rob provided earlier in this post regarding the DSMLink hex values and such but was unable to get more in-depth knowledge regarding the timing adjustment. I have a general idea of how it works but would like to know more about it.

My link was actually for EPROM editing such as Peckerhead chips, DSMChips (Keydiver), TMO etc...
These values are set when you burn the chip and are not changed "on the fly".

DSMLink is adjusted via laptop or handheld.
There are sliders to alter degrees of timing advance (+/-) at a number of rpm points. Same thing for fuel %.

http://www.dsmlink.com/screenshots.html

Yeah, I saw that page but didn't find it provided enough comprehensive information on determining how to modify your timing correctly. I'm not sure how to phrase my question otherwise. Please forgive!


Let's say someone knew nothing about this process, how would they find out more about it? I understand the principles theoretically but would be hard-pressed to try and do this on my own for the first time. Just an example so pardon me if it seems ridiculous, but if the timing was being advanced several degrees increasingly after 5000rpm for some reason, the user would just correct that by retarding the advance in this window throughout the problematic range?
*Edit: Adjusting for the optimal timing, of course, not just randomly guessing. So aiming for 5 degrees, for example, you'd retard increasingly higher after that point to match the value you want?

That's correct.
For instance, there is a timing spike in the stock maps around the 4000rpm mark. This may cause knock when combined with high boost. User would "tune" the timing and fuel at 4000rpm to solve the problem. Tuning is all trial and error. You won't know what the "optimal" timing is until you get there.

Gates one of the best things about DSMLink is you get access to their private user forums that have TONS of information on troubleshooting issues, and tuning your car. Pretty much any question you can think of has been dealt with on the forums and is only a search away. People have also created tuning guides which they have posted on there. I'd highly recommend it if you can fit it in the budget. In fact I'd recommend it as a first mod to pretty much anyone. The diagnostic and logging tools provided are invaluable when you start changing things.

That's actually pretty wicked. So, if I am right in assuming this, I can basically log the timing during a run or a hard drive and refer to the log to adjust accordingly? I figured it would be trial and error. By the way, I'd like to everyone for their contributions so far.

In my opinion...
If you're going to do a street car, get AEM.
If you're going to do a race car, do DSMLink (or SAFC, or whatever).

AEM, however, is much more expensive (roughly $1500 to DSMLink's $750).

What?

I'm sorry Mike, but have you used either?

I hope you mean the other way around. AEM is OVERKILL for a street car on a budget. DSMLink is fine for a street car, as a matter of fact, most upgrade to AEM from DSMLink as DSMLink is limited in a lot of things (Injector size, cannot control dual rails, RPM points, timing adjustment, etc).

DSMLink is great for a street car, and it's pretty accurate. If your readings are off (AirflowPerRev, Timing, Boost) it's telling you something (Base timing off, fuel pressure, boost leaks).

You can be set with dsmlink for less than 600 bucks too.

Heh. 600whp and a 14 second timeslip...because the tires were spinning so much you never GO anywhere.

A dyno is good for establishing a baseline, and for comparison after making major upgrades. But at what it would cost... Yikes!

A bigger turbo can definitely be a crutch, or even a hindrance as it encourages lazy tuning, but for the price of them these days I'd have to say that a 16g would seem rather small. You don't need anything watermelon-sized, but a T3/T4 or FP Red, etc... is definitely doable for not alot of money anymore.

I'd sit back, take my time (since I'd have that luxury now) and pick off cheap (but good) used parts as they came up for most of the stuff.

Nah, Ryan. This is the internet, so I just make random assertions and hope no one notices. And if anyone catches wind, I quickly sw1tch 2 l33t sp34k, y0.

I actually agree with a statement you have, but maintain my stance. AEM is overkill for a street car on a budget, but as this is an open discussion (he doesn't have to buy anything we suggest, which totally takes away from me pushing pink undercar neon) I mentioned my preference for AEM overall.

I'm currently running DSMLink (2G, v2), and I find the limitations of the 2D (RPM-fuel) is a bit rudimentary. It gives no control of tip-in/tip-out (useful on large injectors). This often means that previous RPM fuels need to be richer than normal, a sloppy way of accounting for ti/to. The greater the differential between cruise and WOT boost, the greater a gray area for fuel mismanagement. Call me anal, but AEMs greater control is top-of-the-line.

However, if you're on a budget, yes, Peckerhead, SAFC, and DSMLink are great. That's why I previously stated the cost differential. Only Gates can decide, though I hope if he gets DSMLink, he gets V2.

It should be noted that when I visited Marco, he was doing up a high powered car using just SAFC. It should also be noted that Kevin Marcoux, who shoved a rod through his engine and t-case and ended up parting out, was also using SAFC and wishes he'd bought DSMLink at the very least. To each their own.

There you go.

Yes, AEM has far superior engine management characteristics about it than DSMLink, however for an awesome program that won't break the bank, DSMLink is where it's at.

Just wait till V3 comes out.

Ya... V3 is so tempting it hurts.
Do I go AEM now... only to have them complete it right after I spend the money?

No.

When is DSMLink V3 due out, Ryan? Also, I am waiting on an update from Ziggy regarding my PM for a quote on the turbo. I think I remember reading that he was having some rough personal issues so, out of consideration, I don't want to pressure him much.

It's due out about a month after the second coming of Christ.

Ah, so I shouldn't put this whole project on hold, then.

Alright, Ziggy got back to me with a quote on a new MHI Evo III 16G with the option for the upgraded flapper for a bit extra. I gather that's a good investment because it should help prevent boost creep. The turbo he quoted me on doesn't include porting or clipping, however, though the price is still better than what I've been able to find myself. Porting is no big deal, I can get that done or do it myself. The clipping is another story, though.
I'm not sure of the gains I might actually notice if it were clipped, but I'd assume it might increase spool response and flow slightly?

On a side note, I've also done a bit of research on the "Sleeper" 16g after it was mentioned but have not been able to find in-depth details regarding specifications to compare to the MHI Evo III 16G.
Does anyone know where to find specs for the "Sleeper" to compare to the MHI Evo III?
Am I mislead in believing the Sleeper comes with a thicker, heavier housing that may resist cracking moreso than the MHI Evo III?

Lastly, I am pretty sure I am going to get the Punishment Racing 1G Intercooler Kit while there is a group buy being organized by Ryan Laliberté. Seems like a smokin' deal.
Thoughts regarding this kit for my application? Pros/Cons?
I figure there may be a little lag increase but not much, if anything, else.

I think it might be wise to note that I'd like my build to be responsive for the street and would like to indicate that I don't plan on exceeding the speed limit massively to make use of giant, slow-to-respond turbochargers. Strip functionality is secondary and would be sweet, and I'm sure I can crank out some decent times with what I have in mind.

Just go with a plain jane Evo 16g. Reza seemed to have a good run with his and he hadn't touched a thing on it.

The upgrade flapper might be a good idea if you run 3" exhaust and want to keep the boost around 15 psi. Also you could just run 2.5" exhaust and likely have no problems. I'm sure there is people running 3" with no problems at the same time but I have heard of boost creep issues.

*Edit: From the extensive research I've done, I can't justify the cost of the Sleeper 16g versus the minimal gains. I'd like to get more feedback regarding differences between clipped/regular MHI Evo III 16g though.

Adam, I have a 3" exhaust already installed, so I figured the upgraded flapper would be nice.

Also, I've jumped into the group buy for that Punishment Racing 1G Intercooler Kit. Figured I might as well at that price considering I KNOW I need to replace my SMIC right now anyway and the bonus is that it comes with all necessary piping. I believe my fans might need to be replaced with slimmer versions, but I've read far too many opinions on different boards about reputable brands. I'd have bought their fan/radiator combo also but my rad is BRAND NEW, so...
Anyone able to suggest some quality slim fans off the top of their head?

I stock the Flex-A-Lite, but can also get Maradyne...

Gates, I trapped 120mph on a regular evo 16g, full weight car, no porting or bigger flapper. This is about the most you will get out of it if your lucky. I am still convinced it has more though, but don't plan on proving it as I have changed my setup now.

IMO, if this is the route you want to take and are planning on making lots of power, just crank the boost up and don't bother with the bigger flapper. It will be very hard to make 400HP at just 20 pounds of boost.

Also, you don't need a slim fan to run this turbo. A single stock one will be fine and won't touch the turbo or j-pipe.

Thanks for the responses, guys. Reza, were you able to crank that much out of your turbo without modifying the motors' internals much? Also, boost creep won't be an issue with a 3" exhaust at higher boost levels with the regular flapper? If not, I don't see why I would upgrade, either!

Thanks for the advice, you're an inspiration.

Ziggy, I'll wait to see how the FMIC kit fits before following up on either brand of fan. Once I've worked out the turbo details, you'll be hearing from me to order one up!

Yes, 11.6@120 on a bone stock untouched motor. Just the balance shafts removed and cams, although I did run 11.85 with the stock cams as well. Also I always ran upto 30 psi daily on ultra94 pump gas and water/meth injection.
Same setup at the track as well.

Once you get to the point of running over 25 psi all the time, boost creep will be the last of your worries. Instead it will be the opposite effect. The boost will be falling off fast by redline, i.e. it won't hold 30 psi to redline.
This is the point where a bigger flapper will not help at all.

Gosh I wish that turbo would creep, but what more could you expect when your squeezing the breath out of it.

Right on. Much appreciated, my good sir. I might bother you for details on your water/meth injection setup if you don't mind. I've read up on both but find the task daunting to build myself.

The water/meth is just a basic Devils Own kit from Ziggy, around $200. You don't really need to build one as everything is included in the kit.

I was nervous about water/meth also, but it is a really straight forward install if you get the whole kit.

If you can wire in a sterio, you can plumb in water/meth.

Nice, Randy. SOLD! Best explanation and motivational encouragement EVER, seriously.


Reza, I'll bug you more about the injection stuff when I actually get to installing it. I assume it's safe to put that portion of this build on the backburner until the other stuff is up and running.

Updating this thread to mention that I am in contact with Ziggy for the Punishment Racing FMIC kit. I'm leaning heavily towards getting a new MHI EvoIII 16g from Ziggy as well, but will confirm that after doing a bit more research. I'm also talking to a local Club DSM member who owns DSMLink to determine if that's the right route for me.

I'll be purchasing the fuel system upgrades at some point in the next month or so, probably going to go with a 250 pump and will re-wire at the same time. Haven't confirmed the injector size yet, but I've read there are different styles to choose from and would like to get some input regarding differences between pin-style (like GMs have I think) as opposed to ball-style (stock DSM). Also considering an FPR but not sure if it's necessary.

I am pretty sure I'm decided on which gauges I am going to go with, so that's not an issue, and I'm going to slap on a boost controller at the same time for good measure. I'll probably hold off on an aftermarket BOV for now, at least until I have the new turbo and supporting mods.

A minor detail to note is that I replaced my head when rebuilding my engine and the replacement head, bought and shipped to me from our own Mike Jackson, had a "3 angle valve job". I've honestly forgotten what exactly that means and can't find a good explanation using the search tool. Trying to Google this gives me way too many hits to sift through. Anyone care to clarify just so I can refresh my memory and stop wringing my brain for the answer?

Valve angles, I think paragraph four has your answer.

Thank you Rob, that's exactly what I needed to read.

A 190 Wally with a rewire should do you just fine for your fuel. You won't need an AFPR with it, depending on what boost you will be running.

Well, I'm sure I won't initially try to crank the boost but I'd eventually like to get the most out of the turbo. Depending on which 190 you'd suggest, would it not max out beyond what the EvoIII 16g can handle? If so, I think you're right.

Theoretically, a 190 L/h will supply enough fuel to run 790cc injectors at 100% duty cycle before it falls off.

I'm on the fence with whether or not an AFPR is required when running a 190. Some will say a 190 does over-run the stock FPR.
I like to have one just so that I can control my fuel pressure for tuning purposes. You can't really go wrong by putting one in.

Alright, considering the 255lph HP pump so I don't need to upgrade again in the future. The big question... Do I really need a fuel pressure regulator? I've heard many differing opinions pro or con...

I've been told by many that with a 255 you will definately need a FPR. Have yet to be told that it's not necessary.

Then again, I'm still pretty newb to all these parts so I guess take it with a grain of salt.

Ju

That's the thing, I've heard either I do need a regulator or I don't from several very reliable sources...

I ran for many years with just a HP 255 pump, no aftermarket fuel pressure regulator, and basic performance upgrades. It will run and drive fine. When you want to start doing some proper tuning and make some serious power, get one.

Thanks Reza. Sounds like a plan.

Edit: Probably going to redo the engine hoses/lines early this season as well. After 18 years, some of them are showing a little wear and tear. Preventative maintenance FTW.

Reza, I am a little surprised, because I thought I had read often enough that the 255HP pump NEEDED a fuel pressure regulator. I am certainly not going to question your knowledge, as you OBVIOUSLY know your stuff, but is there any chance you are talking about a REGULAR 255, not the High Pressure 255?
I would just hate to sell someone a pump they can't use, or can't use without spending another couple hundred bucks....

Ziggy, yes a 255 HP pump does need a regulator if you want to do it right. Back in the days a lot of guys would just toss them in without a regulator, put the boost up, and it "seemed" to be fine.

You will not get any crazy driveability issues like stumbling or misfiring, maybe just shitty gas mileage and running extra rich.
So yea, it will still drive fine and all but once you want to REALLY start tuning the car and want to know/adjust fuel pressure, it will help then.

I would rather have a 255HP pump with stock regulator, than just the stock fuel pump and stock regulator

So Reza, did you run that 255 on your 11 second pass with the EVO III. I ask because I'm not running an AFPR with my 255. I don't think it will be a problem, just want to make sure.

Ryan, I've had my Aeromotive FPR installed for many years now, including all 11 second passes. I think I installed it when I got around the high 12's mark.

The deadtime and compensation on the keydiver chip I run now also takes into consideration the base fuel pressure I run.

The 255HP flows ~1.5GPH more than the plain 255 at stock idle fuel pressure.

I run a plain 255, with a stock FPR.

My fuel trims are all to the lean side if I don't add fuel through the ECU somehow.

I have yet to see any actual DATA (ie: fuel trim results) from ANYONE who claims you NEED an AFPR to run a 255 pump of any kind.

Feel free to draw your own conclusions from this.

An AFPR allows you to easily add a gauge or sending unit, so that you could monitor your fuel pressure.

I suppose data on this (fuel rail psi) is sparce since you would rarely find someone running a fuel pressure gauge without an AFPR. It usually requires a fancy banjo bolt (included in some complete gauge kits, like the B&M POS), and at that point you just might as well have an AFPR too.

As for trims - it's something that would have to be tested for specifically (before/after pump install), as we all know how much tuning and other changes happen during modding. You don't just "throw on a pump".
Gates, do you plan to have a logger before and after your pump install? Hint hint...

I agree Rob, but if the 255 "overruns" the stock FPR you'd have a low fuel trim pegged at 81. Unless you removed a bunch of fuel at idle somehow.

It REALLY doesn't take a lot of extra fuel to bottom out the low trim.

See, I'm running off of a lot of fast people who are running the plain 255 (which I have) and no AFPR.

Like Reza said, until you start doing some serious tuning, where every drop of fuel counts, a 255 can be run no problem on a stock 1G FPR.

Rob, I can definitely log the car to get some factual data to represent the changes before and after the pump is installed, and I might try logging pre/post FPR install when the time comes. I figure that it could be a valuable piece of information for future reference. I assume my Palm with MMCD software would be sufficient for this logging spree as I do not have DSMLink... yet.

I believe TMO and MMCD should do the same thing. I use tmo though =]

I'd log..
- rpm (engine speed)
- O2 volts
- O2 feedback trim
- fuel trim low

The car should have been idled & driven a fair bit before logging these.
After installing the pump, you should reset the ECU (by pulling the MPI fuse for a minute), and idle/drive a fair bit again so that the ECU can "learn" - then log again.

Alrighty Rob. I'll be sure to get a log on Thursday when the car comes out of storage. I'll give it ample time to readjust as the battery had been disconnected all winter. This way we'll have the base numbers for reference after the pump goes in.

Off topic; Sequential type BOV vs immediate discharge BOV?

Sequential as in the HKS SSQV?
It's a pull-type valve. That's what makes it so good, because it can't leak.

Yeah, I read about that. I must admit that I don't like the sound too much though... Hence the question. I don't like sounding like I have a canary being strangled every time I shift. Are any of the push-types still reliable, such as the Greddy Type RS?

Edit: Apparently the inserts make a big difference in how the HKS SSQV sounds. Anyone with experience able to confirm?

It does appear that HKS is the only company advertising a pull-type valve.
Other valves will work well, but may require a bit of tuning to match your normal vacuum and boost (be it via spring selection and/or spring tension adjustment).

There is a recirculation kit available for the SSQV, which would decrease the noise a good bit.

In searches, I found that the stock MR2 BOV is pull-type, and very cheap!

Have you looked into Synapse valves? They look like great quality and I have heard nothing but rave reviews about them.

To be honest I purchased one and am more than likely going to swap the old Greddy valve on my spyder for the Synapse to see how it does. I will post a review when I actually get it done. But thats just something to concider.

Whoa. That Synapse BOV is not bad at all. Very informative stuff can be found here regarding Synapse Engineering's products. This looks highly interesting as an option.

Yeah I am really pumped to try it out. Right now the car gets alot of compressor surge. I am hoping that this valve works as well as it shows there to help reduce the amount of compressor surge.

And the great part is they use interchangable flanges, so you can get a different flange depending on what your ic piping is / in case you dont like it. I personally bought an hks flange just incase I do not like the Synapse valve, I can always easily change to a HKS.

Alrighty, so I will be logging the car tomorrow night at some point. Regrinds versus name-brand cams: From what I've read, regrinds do the job just as well. Possible issues/cons? I HAVE searched to no avail...

The OEM cams are case hardened (slightly), and if you regrind them you lose at least some of that case hardening, so they could be less durable.

If I had regrinds I would pull the valve cover off yearly to check the lobes for wear and to check each spacer under each lifter for wear.

Long story short then would be greater peace of mind from name-brand cams?

Sure, but are cams even necessary for your goals?
If you would pay so much extra for the peace of mind, then maybe at this stage the money is better spent elsewhere.

The main CON with regrind cams is it changes the base circle diameter of the cam. This causes the rocker geometry to change slightly and also is the reason you have to shim the lifters.

You can buy hardened washers for a couple bucks that will eliminate any worry you might have about checking them periodically (though I don't see the need for that). Checking for wear on the lobes is probably a good idea and isn't a major undertaking.

FWIW, I have had regrind cams (HKS 264) for several years now without issues. They cost me $300. I got them back when it was more than double that for any other cam. Now that you can get the Brian Crower cams for a reasonable price I don't think I'd go with regrinds.

Cams are necessarily crucial to obtain my goals, though it would be nice to pick up some new BC's at some point. For the price, they're damned good parts. Two for one kind of deal. I'd probably go with 272's.

Thanks for the input on the cams though, guys. I really appreciate it.

As for the BOV, I really like the Synchronic BOV from Synapse Engineering, as well as Greddy's Type RS. I probably shouldn't vent to atmosphere yet which is why I like both of these having the option to recirculate (I think?). Neither of them sound too annoying.

Logging the car tonight as soon as I get back from the licence bureau.