So I have decided that since I don't race my car and it will be a daily driver that my wife will drive from time to time I was going to just get an eprom and a chip for my mods and yada yada.

I was going to get the chip done by this guy http://dsmchips.com/ but it says he is not taking any more orders.

I wanted to see if there were any other people or companies that do the same as him. I want a chip for 24psi, 750 injectors etc.

I have heard of peckerhead chips, but is there more out there that I can look into??

I think you should just buy dsmlink lite and call it a day. Seeing as you dont have an eprom anyways you can send it to ECMlink and have them convert it for you while adding the chip and then sending it back. Probably the easiest and cheapest in the long run solution that there is.

Chips cost around 60 bucks and an eprom ECU is going to run 200 bucks. Spend that towards what you already have.

I say go with a maf-t set-up, simple ,reliaable and user freindly for a DD, but if yer not racing...whats the point of the 750's? and the 24psi?

Don't sleep on the Peckerhead Chips! He does some amazing stuff with the stock ECU! If your not going DSM/ECMlink then a Peckerhead chip is your next best option, along with some sort of fuel controller to dial in AFRs.

Peckerhead FTMFW!!!

This year I plan on taking it to the track maybe once to see what it can do. I was going to sell my 680's to a buddy and I was going to get the 750's so that when I do decide to go faster/bigger, I already have them. I know DSM link is great, but on top of the link I need the eprom and a laptop which I dont have. I would like it to be a little more reliable also if the wife drives it (I know Talon isnt the car for reliability...lol) so I figure that a chip would be better. I have a super afc right now so I figure that can fine tune things...if I can figure out how to use it.

I also have a dual stage boost controller to bring the boost down for the wife. I read that you can get kind of a dual burnt chip for 2 different settings. I may have read it wrong.

At the end of the day, I don't really want to be constantly messing with the laptop and whatnot. It isnt really a matter of cash either, I just figured the chip would be the easier way to go.

What is needed for the maf-t setup other than the maf and the translater. Do I need some sort of programmer or anything?

Also, is there a peckerhead website, I cant seem to find anything?

the maf-t and the maf is all you need, its plug n play, remove your stock mas, replace it with the gm maf, plug in the translater and splice 1 wire, and set it for 750's.(2 onboard dials) then tune it with 3 dials using the millions of guides on the internet or use the saf-c to fine tune it from there.

Youll need a logger anyway you do it tho.

I have heard from people tho that the maf-t setup can be a pain in the ass to tune sometimes?

well there all a pain to tune with.

Tuning is not easy..

Air flow converters such as maf-t and safc and safr's are easier and will let your car saftly run with bigger injectors and turbos but wont give you a precice tune..

therefor being a pain in the ass to "fine" tune with.

I had a Peckerhead chip (actually, still do) before I got ECMLink, great little thing. Message Steve Kinnaird, he will set you up with one, and it's only $60. You will need an EPROM ECU, but I don't know who buys them for $200+. I bought my first virgin one for $70 and had it socketed for like $30 locally IIRC, and another virgin one for $100.

Also, I wouldn't let the MAF-T do anything else but that, translating. It's hard to dial in for larger injectors and try to tune. If you already have the SAFC and want to keep it modest, without dishing lots of money for Laptop, and 'Link, go the chip way IMO.

I believe Steve ONLY makes 1G chips does he not? I remember asking him a long time ago about 2G chips and he wasn't burning them at that time, if he is now, I can use one too for my Eclipse now that keydiver is gone.

Also remember these piggy-back computers(maft, safc) are actually hiding air from the ECU to compensate for larger injectors. What that does from a tuning stand-point is put you in the wrong part of the timing map for the "actual" airflow entering the engine. Often times resulting in way too much timing. Having a chip compensated for your injectors is the way to go!

Ahhh that brings back memories. I remember raising and lowering fuel pressure, changing my airflow (MAF-T or SAFC), and hoping my timing ended up in a nice spot. If it wasn't, I'd change my base fuel pressure again and tune all over and hope it's where I wanted it.

ECMLink sure has made tuning easier.

poeple have run maf-t to componsate larger injectors, and fine tuned them with an saf-c for years and got good results, its easy and not hard to install. And when or if you ever upgrade to link or whatever, you can still use the maf-t which is way better for air flow then the stock mas and sound better too!

With a chip you still need to fine tune it with a saf-c, but chips seem to be hard to find and if you change anything, youll need a new chip.

If he was me tho, If yer not gonna race it all the time being that its your daily driver, Id just get some 550's and maf-t to go with his sa-fc and keep it reliable.

Anything more then that I would skip the chip and go striaght to link.

The injector size limit for a "piggy-back", MAF-T included, is about 650cc before you dip into some crazy timing advance.

I would recommend a chip even for STOCK injectors!! There are some very useful features. #1 being phantom knock elimination code and #2 a knock gauge in the dash.

I agree with you on the piggy back set-up and as long as he dosent go higher then his 680's he'd be fine...mabye not 24psi tho.

Dosent link do those things too, why buy a eprom ecm, pay to have it socketed, and hunt for a custom chip when he could just spen a few hundred more for link? He says money is not the problem.

Yes link does those things too.
This really comes down to preference and how the car will be used & tuned.

24psi on 750cc injectors only speaks to the level of power desired.
750cc injectors are too big for a piggy-back.
DSMLink might be considered overkill for a non-race car.

So, a chip could be the happy medium. Stock-like tune with more power and no frills to worry about. Sounds like that's what he wants.

//edit
Oh and as mentioned above, he doesn't have a laptop nor does he want to mess with one. He has the S-AFC already.
Chip seems to be the obvious choice for simplicity.

he has 680's
Dsmlink is only overkill if its a dodge caravan.

plus if someone sets up his link with him' then he can learn how to tune so when he upgrades he'll have a better clue what he is doing.

I sappose if he gets a preprogramed chip, then he dosent really need a wideband, cause it should be close enough from the box. But id be scared poopless not knowing what my ecm is doing at full throttle. especially at 24psi with 750's and a unknown t3\t4

The ecu will try to reach the same A/F target ratio from 2.3g/rev (about 17 psi on a 14B) and up.

[old guy moment] We tuned DSMs for a LONG time without widebands. Learn how the engine reacts, think about what you're lieing to the ECU about (usually airflow), watch knock and timing, and your good. Having said that, I have a wideband. [/old guy moment]

You need to be more concerned with MAF reading accuracy than anything. It's easy to change injector size, and A/F ratio TARGETS in the ECU, but if the MAF isn't sending the ECU accurate info, it's not going to work as well.

The reason I usually suggest using an SAFC, etc with a chip is due to this. (Even worse with a hacked/MAF, and from my experience, the MAFTs seem to have some issues with low airflow readings).

Oh, and no, unfortunately I don't do chips for 2Gs. I could never find anyone willing to test them for me, and I'm simply too busy to start playing with new code right now.

yes, maft, safc or safr will bring the chips fuel trim closer to what the actual airflow is cause the programer cant possably match the trim to the actual airflow.

this also works with just big injectors alone. I used to put 450cc injectors in a stock saturn and use the safr to lean it out and match the fuel trim to the airflow of the turbo in a na\turbo saturn. crude but works.

But again chips seem to be hard to get, so if he dosent want a comlicated link set-up, he should just go with a mild maf-t set-up and lower his boost.

Been reading all the comments guys have made. Everyone makes some good points. I am able to get an EPROM done for a good price from DSM link. But, with the EPROM, it isnt recommended to change chips too often. Chips have alot of great features in them, but finding a 2G chip will be difficult now.

Reliability right now was what I was looking for till I get better at tuning the car bit by bit. The chips will limit me as I upgrade.

I had thought about the MAF-t set-up, as it looks fairly simple aswell. I am getting a wideband and I have a safc.
I was going to with the 750 injectors but I think I will stay with the 680's and stay around 18-20psi right now.

I think DSM link is the cats ass, but I am not sure if I need it right now. Being up north here sucks for knowledable people for DSM's. DSM link will be the chioce in the future. If I go with the MAF-T setup, almost all that can be used with the link...except the maf-t.

I have a month or so to decide since it is too cold to work on it. In that time I will be reading up on it all and I welcome all advice or ideas that you may have.

If anyone knows of a place to get chips please let me know. Looks like Link or maf-t will be the options.

Some ECMLink setups can read the GM MAF without needing a translator in between.

If you don't mind sticking with the 680s for now, you can just use the S-AFC to tune, you don't really need the MAF-T.
Although the MAF-T could help in a couple of ways.. Better airflow plus you can dial in the injectors so you fine tune on the S-AFC starting at zero.
Go for it!

If you can find a chip to compensate for the injectors it's better, but whatever

I'll add in a third option which, depending on how enthusiastic you want to get (I know you mentioned you don't want to get a laptop to tune), is get a 98 or 99 ECU. All 99 and a majority of 98 ECUs come from the factory flashable using an Openport 2.0 cable. ECUs are probably 100$, cable is 75$, logging software is 15$, flashing program is free.

It is near as capable as v3, but not as user friendly, and not really as much support for our application (evo world though, many forums based on the flashing).

You can change pretty much everything in excel style tables and flash it to your ECU.

I would also like to add that this is definitely a more involved approach. It is fairly intimidating if you are not used to computer "programming", but is a nice cheap alternative to link (really cheap if you already have an ECU which could be flashed, but unfortunately, I don't think any 97 ECUs can be flashed. The good news is I don't believe you would have to change any wires like you would do with the 95...but I could be wrong)

Well, as Steve mentioned he doesn't do chips anymore, and doesn't do 2G chips at all. I have decided that unless someone has a socketed 2G ECM with a good chip in it sitting on thier coffee table ready to sell.....I will go with link. The chips are going to be hard to find. Although the DSM link guys said they have been thinking about doing chips but they have no idea when they will start.

I will get the laoptop and link and get some help with the tuning. Once I have it I will be good to go with whatever mods I do in the future.

Thanks for all the info guys, its appreciated!!!

Netbooks are dirt cheap now, Bestbuy and Future Shop have them on sale all the time.

Ya I just saw that yesterday. They had one on sale for $239

Get link!!

Hey Blayne;

I'm also going to advocate for ECMLink for several reasons.

Right now, you find yourself wanting to DD your car, not really do much with it. Investing in a chip right now may seem economical, however in the long run, ECMLink will be the way to go.

My first three mods to the AWDAuto:

AEM Digital Boost (5.2Bar Loggable MAP sensor)
AEM UEGO Wideband
ECMLink V3

From there you can do ANYTHING man. You can run huge injectors and still have fantastic street manners. The advantage is you are never limited by your ECU when it comes to any future modifications. V3 also comes with Native GM MAF support, so you can get the PSHHHTTT out of the BOV if you do so wish.

Another advantage is if your car is doing something completely fucked up, you can log it, and send it to a member to have a look at. You can also tune via Email if you really wanted to. The possibilities are endless.

If you can Blayne, save up the cash and invest in ECMLink. I don't say buy, I say invest, because when it comes to the DSM Platform, ECMLink is an investment that reaps only positive net gains.

If you are looking for an example, I run 1000cc injectors, W190, Meth (M3 + M7 Nozzles), 94 Octane, 30psi out of a S16G, clicking off low 12's in the 1/4 and it still starts and gets me to/from work every day. I don't ever worry about my car leaving me somewhere or running like a bag of sh!t.

Haha, well said Ryan. I will be getting link for sure. I have the wideband on the way. I guess I should start looking for an AEM digital boost. I am gonna keep an eye out for a netbook on sale.

You don't need an AEM digital boost controller, although very nice to have. Ryan got his for a very good price if I do remember correctly.. They are very pricey new..

I don't have a digital boost controller, I simply have the gauge. It's best to have a loggable boost sensor.

And I paid full price new for mine.

Best buy has a refurbed netbook on for 210 bucks this weekend, online deal only

Sorry to thread jack but I have read and reread the DSM link website and for the life of me I cant figure out if the V3Lite version will allow you to compensate for Meth or not? Anyone shed any light on this?

http://www.ecmtuning.com/wiki/prodcompare

Compensation for Meth can be done in the direct access tables. What some people do is use secondary AUX maps activated when either the EGR or FPS custom outputs are activated to compensate for Meth.

It basically allows you for a street/strip tune. Some guys don't like to run the same boost on the streets as they do at the track, understandable. Some of these setups are pretty insane.

Instead of a UEGO, get the NGK / NTK wideband, more accurate, and only about $20 more. The NTK sensor is more accurate and has a longer life span. They apparently last as long as oem narrowband ones do.

Does the DSM LINK have the ability to self tune to a safe point or is it always a log and then go in and do your own thing to it

To a certain extent, but fuel injector settings MUST be correct(deadtime and global settings). ECMlink V3 software has a wizard to help dial in the MAF compensation sliders. There are also features to help create a VE table based upon your MAF comp settings. It is very user friendly!

Ecmlink doesn't self tune for you. If you find yourself asking the question "what is better for tuning, chip or ecmlink?" , I would suggest just basic performance mods until you figure out how the ecu works and what ecmlink really does.

I've had a lot of guys ask me what is better, chip or ecmlink ? I think tuning is not for these guys, they are better off having their cars tuned conservatively by someone who knows what they are doing.

I've seen first posts from newbs on the ecmlink forums who just bought ecmlink and are clueless as to what to do with it. It definately helps to mod within your limits and knowledge too, otherwise your DSM turns into one of those 10 or 9 sec partouts that never even ran.

I ran a best of 10.7 on a dsmchip, but if your still wondering whats better ecmlink or chip, I would suggest you stay out of the boxing ring till you can figure it out

Agreed with the above. It helps to read the ECU Primer (google it), to understand the workings of the ECU.

You need to know why and how things work before you can understand what to change.

Old thread, but thought I'd bring it back.

Dilemma, I've read countless threads over at tuners and dsmtalk, etc., some sites I've never heard of.

I'm getting my car back up and hoping to pop in a 14B and run stock boost or a maximum of 15psi with an EVO8 fuel pump and nothing else.

Obviously thinking to save up for Link, but damn, gotta pay to play or is there a cheap, "okay", way to get a very basic tune?

NGK AFX is freakin' 250USD, then link and converting my non eprom ecu plus Link lite is 570USD.

Basically $1000 just to tune and log. HOLY SCHNIKE!

Anyone here still tune the old school way?

Logger and AFC?

I'm not planning to go very much past a 14B and 650cc injectors.

I know I'm going to get flamed for this stupid post, but I gotta ask you guys.

Yes there is a cheap way with a very basic tune. Its called a stock ECU with 450cc injectors! My wifes DSM is just as simple as that with a logger (which I don't even use for this car unless required) and small 16g @ 14psi. Fun and reliable.

Your just thinking too hard about it

That's the kind of answer I was looking for Reza, thanks!

I already have the 650 injectors.

I've read a little into it, but how feasible is it to have a modest tune on 650 injectors on an AFC that is good year round without having to mess with it all the time?

Assume I've already learned how to use it.

...I haven't, but I can learn.

Sell the 650's and buy some 450's for your goal, or a better goal is to get the car running first.

No point in trying to learn to tune a car that hasn't seen the road in a few years. I've seen cars slapped together that are supposedly "ready to tune", that I would not even bother driving for the matter. There is way more involved in getting a DSM to run mechanically proper and safely before you begin to tune. Tackle that first, get a car that runs and start actually driving the thing, before you start asking tuning questions. Get past the first challenge, don't take a back assward approach to it, haha.

I've seen way more HACKED DSM's now than ones that are actually ready to tune. Let's see you get a stockish DSM running in perfect mechanical shape, which you will find to be more of a fun task, than worrying about how to tune your 650's on a 14b car when it does eventually run... one day.....

These cars are cheap pieces of shitz. If you actually put your mind to it, you can have your car running in a matter of days. Way too many DSM's are just sitting in garages for years now, like the worthless piles of heap that they are, LOL. They are not Ferrari's, drive em!

My 2 cents

The 650s will work fine for a modest tune with a piggyback like an SAFC, MAF-T etc..

If you try to squeeze the most out of them at the track or dyno, it will be better to ditch the piggyback for ECMLink or whatever. That's an expensive proposition and there's no reason you can't have some fun while you build up those mods.

It's your choice to "mess with it all the time".. People with ECMLink still do that! It comes from gaining knowledge and having DSMer OCD, they just can't leave it well enough alone

I think it will be easier for him to find 450cc injectors and call it a day, than to try to make the 650's work with an AFC at like -40% across the board and wacky airflow/timing maps just to run a 14b at stockish boost levels.

This is like trying to reinvent the wheel with better angles

LOL

Well the way I am I guess I'm going to mess with it all the time, regardless of what I get.

I'm the type of fool that adjusts his seat EVERYTIME I get in a vehicle.

Depends on the thickness of clothing I'm wearing.

Really? So no point in me putting in the EVO8 fuel pump and 650 injectors for some 14B 18-20psi boost fun?

Well from 15psi max on a 14b in your first post to 20 psi now, yes you'll need something to tune with or tuning knowledge for the matter

You sure you don't plan on putting it up more, like 30 or 40 psi fun ?

I guess if you have decided to be tinkering with it all the time, you answered your own question

I must have missed that "15psi on a 14b".. Skip the 650s until you are ready with the fuel control for them. It could even be worthwhile to run a piggyback on the 450s (to learn tuning) and add a chip for the 650s later. Or by then maybe you'll have Link ready to go in.

You are thinking about it the wrong way.....

$1000 To have near full control and complete monitoring of your car's data/performance, be able to perform almost any modification to your car and take full control of it... That is a complete steal in the automotive world.

I would take that in a heart beat...
Trying to get a "tune" for my boosted volvo requires me to take a copy of my "tune"/ecu image then e-mail it away overseas where some nerd modifies it with THEIR software, emails it back then I flash the computer. No logging, no ability to do any tuning myself... all at the wonderful price of $1200-$1400. with a $75-$100 per hour for any other modifications that need to be done to it after that, (If I decide to add an intake, injectors, exhaust)

Us dsmers are lucky

you could always go with dsmap, it is a little more cost effective, but you will need to switch to sd (if i remember correctly)

Hrmm...understood.

Will have to start small.

BUT I want a 43252364 WHP daily driver that's as reliable as a Honda now! lol

Thanks guys, sound advice to ground my newbie ass.

If you want to be safe and have some more power without the headache, I also suggest a stock fuel system and 15 PSI on a 14B. You will notice a nice improvement over a T-25 at stock boost levels.

I would also suggest getting a wideband if you can. Right now, it will be a little useless in the fact that you can't adjust your tune to change the readings. However, you will get an idea of how things work better. And when it comes time to upgrade, it's one less thing you'll have to buy and install since you already have it

You do have an aftermarket boost gauge, right?

YessireeBob. I do.
I was looking at the Wideband that Reza/Kevin (it's like they're one entity, hehe) suggested by NGK.

The o2 sensors are supposed to last the longest.

I did however, for the first time, discover dsmtuners.com's marketplace.

LOTS of stuff on there. Maybe I could save a penny or two.

I have a narrowband from the previous user already on the car, but I am told it's useless.

Then again, my cousin says it's not COMPLETELY useless.

Gotta pay to play, I'll be picking up a wideband eventually.

It's not completely useless is true, it will tell you if your mix is perfect, around 14.1 I think(correct me if I am wrong). It does not accurately tell you how lean or how rich the mix is so it would be a nightmare to tune with.

It's only useful for closed-loop tuning, but even then a wideband is more accurate. You can use the narrowband to see what your ECU sees, and the only time the ECU uses that input is during closed-loop operation. As Ryan suggested: DSM ECU PRIMER!

Already on it.