200 degrees is optimal temp for our cars and they run the BEST at this temp. I am not sure why people are dead set on running cooler temps and 165 degree thermostats. Getting engine oil temps to 200 degrees is optimal, and results in the less wear and tear on internal components.

You say your temp shoots into the 200's, but you don't say exactly what temp its going up to, so I guess it sounds normal to me. What is the exact highest temp you are seeing. 200's is pretty vague to me.

On a warm (20's) summer day, one 3rd gear pull will put me in the 21x range if not higher. Even in these low temperatures, a few closely-timed pulls will shoot me from the mid 170s to between 205-219 or so, especially with heat soak. Cruising on the 401 at 125-130 in single digit temps with a 165 thermostat and she's running around 200, +/- a few.

I agree, a 165 thermostat is not ideal and it's not what I'd like to be running, but she runs hot enough with it as it is.

Like I said, my end-goal is to road-race this car yet overtaking a car on the highway puts me into danger territory. It's a little ridiculous and incredibly frustrating.

"Hey guys, let's go for a drive...but, we can only hit boost once every 10 minutes or she'll overheat" <-- Pretty much sums it up as far as warm weather driving goes.

219 degrees is ok (hot but not damaging), I used to cruise around at 226 degrees one summer when I had single slim 12" fan. I agree these temps are hot and you should get them lower. As long as you have no air pockets in the head, going even higher, like in the 230's, is okay on the engine (as long as coolant is there)

They are by no means damaging to any components. Get another rad fan on and wire them to be on full time, full blast. Do some good ducting and it should solve your problem.

If you find your temps rapidly climbing over 230 and not coming back down no matter what, then there is a problem.

An update to this.

Since it looks like I'll be redoing my timing anyways, I'm going to pull the head.

Something that I've been thinking of and has been mentioned by a few others during discussion as well is the possibility that I'm pushing exhaust into the coolant under boost, which would explain why the car stays at temp idefinitely while idling but heats up *instantly* after even a bit of boost (especially a pull). I've also been seeing coolant dripping out the overflow hose lately, which also lends credence to that idea.

To clarify: When I say 'instantly' I mean the coolant temps are at ~180, if that, ambient temps are < 6C, and after ONE pull to mid 4th the coolant temps are mid-high 220's.

Although the engine had a new OEM head gasket when I bought it (or so I was told), I have no idea if copper spray was used or not or if the surfaces were properly prepped. This will be a pain in the ass but peace of mind is priceless. Nothing else left that anyone has mentioned or can think of that would cause my issues.

I'll have to pick up some copper spray and some ARP lube, and possibly a new headgasket pending inspection.

I don't know if this is the case for you but I hope there is way to diagnose it without removing the head. I heard we lift our heads on stock bolts under high boost. How much boost are you running?

Up to about 22psi (14b) with brand new ARPs (brand new as of August when all timing components and head gasket were new).

And yes, there probably are better ways to check but I have to do timing anyways so I may as well do it now. I have a feeling it (the hg) was never copper-sprayed.

Update #2: Since I'm away from home (i.e. the car) 5 1/2-6 days/week and have been working ridiculous hours and will continue doing so, I just don't have the time to take off the head (nor the desire - but who does).

Therefore, I'm going to retorque the ARPs, redo the timing and call it a day.

If I absolutely need to do the head gasket after that, then I will, but I will get 'er going again, see how she does and do a good ol' leakdown test (and another compression test).

So...timing turns out to still be perfect (see this thread for misfire issues) - coil pack is now suspected. That being said, turbo/exhaust manifold/IC piping/alt/PS pump/etc. are all out of the car - two bolts broke off in the turbo yesterday.

My question is now, do I pull the head or just retorque the head studs, and if I retorque should I loosen & retorque one at a time or loosen all and retorque all? Car won't be running for at least 2 weeks, probably - I'm going to be doing even more porting on my O2 housing/hot side/exhaust manifold/etc. during the next few weeks and also going to be getting a bung welded in my TB Elbow so I can run SD




Edit: If I pull the head and the HG looks fine, can I resuse it? Tuition is due next week and I'd really rather not spend any more than I have to.
Also, if the head gets pulled, I will (probably) be taking it to get checked at an engine/machine shop just to verify everything is good and no cracks/etc.

Its very easy to figure out if your headgasket it gone, do a little research.

Copper spray is sh!t IMO and not needed, lol. I'd say you figure out the problem first before pulling off parts.

Perhaps you'd like to offer a little insight, because everything I've tried/tested/checked has come up negative and no one else seems to be able to think of anything other than head gasket and/or the head.

I have done my research and have been doing it for quite a while and the only thing I haven't done (that I can find suggested) is a leakdown test as I don't have a leakdown tester and don't have access to one and can't afford to buy one right now.

I'm open to doing any tests/checks that will help figure out my problem, but telling me 'to do a little research' when I've spent many, many hours searching and reading (without finding much new or particularly useful, at this point) isn't really helping the matter. Believe me, the last thing I want to do is pull parts for the sake of pulling parts but I'm at a loss right now.

Edit: I should add - when I drained the coolant overflow bottle (which became/becomes full and overflowing from driving), there was a thick layer of 'black stuff' at the bottom (that wasn't there when installed on the car - after installing a brand new rad).

Also...one day I had the car running with the rad cap off and coolant system full, if I revved the engine (even a little bit), coolant was shooting out through the thermostat. Never had that happen before.

Decided to do some research for you, and most of what I am finding is people with issues with their headgasket. What brand of head gasket did you get and were the surfaces decked before putting them on? Did you put the head on perfectly or did you have to shift it once you got it on there?

Well is there oil in the coolant ?
Is there coolant in the oil ?
Is there exhaust gases getting into the cooling system ?
Compression #'s consistent across the cylinders ?

If it was running hot because there is a sealing issue and exhaust gases are getting into the system and pushing all you coolant out thus causing it to over heat, then it would be pretty obvious.

If your car is doing this, then you already know the head gasket is gone. If everything above checks out fine, I just don't think its the head gasket.

I bought the engine from another member and they had put on a new OEM (Mitsu) Composite HG and new ARPs. The head and block were not decked, but it is not necessary to do so for a composite gasket. The engine was never run after these items were installed and as mentioned, I retorqued the ARPs to spec with ARP Assembly Lube once the engine was in my posession. Loosening and the subsequent torquing of the nuts/head studs were done in proper order according to the shop manual.



Reza,

I do not see oil in the coolant and I did not see coolant in the oil when I changed it a few weeks ago.

As for exhaust gas in the coolant, I cannot say for certain. I know they have tests for that - but unless it works after the fact (i.e. after the cars been off for a few weeks/coolant is just sitting) then I can't tell as my coolant is in a pail right now.

The compression #'s I got a few weeks ago on a warm engine and with throttle closed (i.e. not a proper compression test) were:
1 - 149
2 - 145
3 - 146
4 - 142

Back in Fall before the SO I got these values on a hot engine with throttle open:
1-150
2-151
3-152
4-150

So, the compression test #'s seem to check out.

The only reason I suspect head gasket/head is because I don't know what else it could be. The rest of the cooling system is brand new and functioning well, not to mention the car only runs hot as hell under boost, and it does so instantly, even in freezing temperatures. Heck, I'd say other than under boost the cooling system works pretty well - after a pull when the temps skyrocket, the cooling system does a pretty good job at pulling them back down as long as I stay out of boost and just cruise gently.

Any ideas as to what else it could possibly be if not the HG/Head?

I am not sure were you got the info of a head not needing to be resurfaced,but that is incorrect if you ever want a headgasket to last. The head could be warped and no amout of retorquing will make it straight.

I have seen some people try a smooth the surface with sandpaper even worse idea DON'T DO IT.

If you are getting sludge in your overflow you have compression leakinh into your cooling system.

As to where it from... You will have to disassemble the head and look at the gasket sometime you can see the firing ring broken. if you can see any damage to the gasket get the head checked it will cost you a few bucks but at least you won't have to replace it again.

Thanks Stephen, the insight is much appreciated.

I was not informed that the head was decked (it may very well have been, but I don't know), so I'm assuming it wasn't. I was under the impression that for a composite gasket (and not MLS) that you didn't need to resurface.

As for resurfacing procedure...I would only ever do it/get it done the right way. It may cost more but I like to do things once and do them right...sand paper is just asking for trouble.

Compression in the coolant = head pulled.

Time to throw those coveralls back on, I guess.

Years ago the old Chrysler guys used to just lift the head and throw in a new gasket and hope for the best.But that was on old 2.2 and 2.5l engines those head wheren't straight even after you machined them.

Run the pistons threw their sweeped area are while the head is off and look for anything abnormal. Could be a crack in block aswell

I am going to have to disagree with this. If you check your surfaces and both are nice and level, even if there is a tiny bit of gap (and I mean tiny) running the stock head gasket is the best way to go, as stated on ziggy's website, it is the most forgiving. I would also like to state that I just finished doing a head swap and nothing got decked, just put in a nice new OEM HG and I am good to go, I have had no issues.

Smoothing the surface with sandpaper might not be the best idea, but the surface should be prepped before putting on the new gasket and using sandpaper is a good way to do it, I used a flap wheel which is nice!

The service limit is .008 inch for head warpage U need to measure that not just put a level on it.

Soloman's head gasket was done before he bought the car as he stated. Obviously not done properly.

I would agree that a stock gasket is the most unforgiving. A MLS gasket needs much better surface prep.

As stated if you want it to last do it right.

Wait till you hit your car a few times with over 20psi boost.(even the stock bolts dont always hold up)

You should of prep you block with a 3M roloc pad. Not sand paper.

Also Soloman is having over heating issues. He should be checking everything not half ass a head gasket job.

I have fixed so many backyard done head gaskets i can't count them anymore.

To update:

Ended up pulling the head on Sunday. No hugely obvious signs of HG damage but oil smelled terrible and found out my turbo seals on the hotside are blown (explains why I was slowly eating oil but IC pipes were clean). Found some other stuff that needed taking care of (one of my lower injector seals was completely split, CAS was missing a nut, main water pipe bolt was loose causing pipe to leak a bit where it connects to water pump, etc.)

Cylinder walls and pistons look great (no carbon buildup on piston, cylinder walls smooth).

Head is getting ultrasonic tanked, decked and possibly having the valves reseated.

Do you guys think it is critical for me to get the head pressure tested as well?

Also, for the block, I just plan to scrape all the crap off with some plastic scrapers (razors only as absolutely necessary) and then a solid scrubbing/wipedown with acetone. Is this enough? I'm only going to be using an OEM composite gasket. What techniques/materials do you use to prep a block if it's not getting decked?

I'll be using a composite OEM head gasket.

Opinions?

I would use the 3m roloc bad like stephen had mentioned to prep your block. I was going to make a comment on the pressure testing but I will leave that to someone with more experience (my thoughts are if the valves are seated correctly than you shouldn't need the pressure test assuming the shop does good work)

I would tell the machineshop your issue and see what they suggest. I would recomemnd a pressure test or whichever form of crack detection they use. See if they can give you the specs before and after they deck the head.

You could use the 3m roloc bristle pads (they are the cats ass on aluminum) but you need a diegrinder and adaptor.

One of those scotchbright pads(not too course) and some air intake cleaner or acetone. I use air intake cleaner because it more readily avialible to me.

Cast is a bit harder to damage with a scrape as long as your gentle you should be fine.

I always lay my flat edge across the block and do some measurements. I have yet to have a cast block out of spec. Not say they don't warp.


Can you post or sent me a pic of the HG. something good.

Solomon;

2 years ago I pulled my head to have valve seals replaced. I did a quick scrape/block sand of my block, cleaned my piston tops (already cleanish from the meth), the head was cleaned by the machine shop but neither milled nor pressure tested. I did a quick block sand with some 800 grit, sprayed my OEM Composite with some copper spray, slammed her on and torqued my ARPs to 90ft/lbs.

I ran 2 years at 25+psi on this with the Small 16G. I never lost a drop of oil nor pushed a drop of coolant. Car never overheated nor did it burn any fluids.

FFT. FWIW.

Well...to bring everyone up to date.

Head is completely disassembled and getting ultrasonic tanked and decked tomorrow. New (i.e. OEM but 'refreshened' to new condition) valves are going in, getting reseated and new valve stem seals are getting thrown on.

I will be running an OEM composite gasket

I will be cleaning the block with a plastic scraper, some solvent, some green 3M scouring pads (nothing that will do any damage, especially not by hand) and perhaps a low grit (1000?) sanding. All the holes are and will remain plugged until the block is clean.

I will be torquing my ARPs to 90ft/lb, maybe 95 (undecided), in 3 steps (30/60/90) using ARP Assembly Lube, following shop manual tightening order.

I don't think I will be using copper spray, although I do have a can of it.

If anyone has anything to add/suggest/object to/etc....please feel free to let me know. The sooner the better as she's getting put back together this weekend.


On a sidenot...IAT Bung is welded on. SD, here I come!

Some guys swear by it, other guys say it's useless. However, I've never heard any definitive stories where it's caused any harm. If you already have a can, I say have at 'er.

If your using a brand new gasket, especially composite, then you don't need copper spray (but wont hurt to use it). Copper spray is more useful if your going to reuse a metal gasket.

Refreshed? As in cleaned up and reused?

For the price of valves, Id get a brand new set. Along with new guides and seals. Maybe some upgrades springs, and revised lifters

I wouldn't sand the block, lots of junk will fall off the paper, use a wire brush attachment for a drill, polishes to a beauty surface finish.

I believe ARP recommends a higher torque then that, I think its on the instruction paper that comes with the head studs.

As for temps, my new aluminum rad keeps it real cool! Barely ever need the fans, yet its only been about 10C here. So thats something to look into as well.

I can't afford what I've bought as it is, so new valves/guides/springs/lifters/etc. were never even a consideration. New seals, clean valves and then all the stock stuff (plus my BC272s). Valves are being (re)seated.

I'm still on the fence about copper spray but after looking at the gasket I think I may just use some, as the gasket is not that smooth/flat of a surface, even though I know when it's crushed it will fill in more.

http://arpinstructions.com/index.php Search 207-4701. It's only higher than that if you're using 30wt motor oil.

I'm not putting any power tools near my block surface. It's just not happening. I have every hole plugged well and aren't too worried about crap falling in.

I also have a nice new aluminum rad. The cooling system itself works great and effectively. The exhaust in the coolant is not so great.