Have been out of town for a bit and decided to go out for a drive last night to do some tuning.

Car is running great and I'm getting things dialed in. Looked at the clock, realized it was after midnight already and decided to call it a night.

As I'm on my way home I gave her a bit, everything is fine. Next time I go to step on it a bit it won't build boost and all I hear is a whirring sound.

Queue this afternoon - I tightened every IC hose/coupling and every other hose/coupling I could think of. I took off the intake and checked the compressor wheel - it spins nicely, no in & out play and only a touch of side-to-side play. The fins are undamaged and there is no signs of scraping, etc.

I reassembled everything and tightened her all up - went for a quick drive around the block and the same thing is still happening. Car drives/cruises fine, but will not build boost. It only 'whirs' as I give it gas and seems to 'whir' more the more gas I give it.

Any ideas?

I have not yet checked the hotside because that it is a task and a half and I don't have too many tools at school with me.




Also: I finished rebuilding the head and re-hg'ing the engine a few weeks ago. Put in all new gaskets for everything (hg, IM, EM, O2 Housing, etc.) and car has been running amazing - no knock and no overheating.

As well, the turbo is one I just picked up not long ago. Used but in good condition and had never seen over 18PSI before.

Is the turbo pushing any air at all? So, when you start getting into it, do you see more or less vacuum?

any cracks in the exhaust manifold.. I had a BAD leak on my manifold and couldn't build more then 3psi.

It's pushing air - as I step into it more I can get the vacuum close to 0 (based on my boost gauge - didn't do a log) but never into boost. It just 'whirs' more.

Also forgot to mention, I checked the WGA Arm and it is still on and the clip is still there. It is a stock 14b/16G style WGA/arm and the turbo is an authentic Mitsu E16G with a fully ported 2G O2 housing and fully ported 2G exhaust manifold.



I had the EM off a few weeks ago to port it and there were a few small surface cracks both inside and out, but none were large and I couldn't see any that went through - not to say that there are none.

Also, I noticed after taking off my heat shields that the head and EM hardware are completely black as if exhaust gas is getting out somewhere. This is with a brand new 4 layer MLS OEM exhaust gasket, and a freshly surfaced EM-to-head face. Like I said, all new gaskets everywhere and I resurfaced the EM and O2 housing gasket mounting faces using a mill, so they are 'perfectly' flat. This being said, before I pulled everything for a rebuild it was black as well and I never had issues building boost and didn't until last night.





To add to my first post as well - on the way home last night I hit it in first and car pulled hard, shift into 2nd and get back on it and all I hear is whirring; i.e. no more boost. That's how it's been since (although it's only had about 5-10 minutes of runtime since then).

Going to try safety-wiring/zip-tying the WG flapper shut later to see if it does anything. I don't currently have access to a compressed air source to test the WG itself. If it's bad, I'll throw on the one from my 14b and call it a day.

My first thought was maybe the WG stuck open.

Update.

Did a BLT today, everything looks clean. There was on leak at a nipple on the IM because the hose wasn't clamped/zip-tied tight enough and the only other leak is my TB Shaft Seal, which I will fix this coming weekend.

BOV does not leak and WG is in the closed position and DOES actuate open when air is applied. There was no regulator to see what PSI it opens at, though.

Compressor wheel *looks* fine and there's no in & out play with just a hair of side-to-side play. The fins are fine and there's no sign of scraping. It spins alright - doesn't spin and spin, but it'll do a few rotations before stopping.

I have NOT pulled the O2 housing to check the hotside.

The whirring sound gets quite loud when I step on it and the max logged boost I can get is 1.0 PSI.

Anyone have any ideas what it could be/probably is?

You said you just had the exhaust manifold off, are the nuts & bolts still tight? Do you smell exhaust?

Seems like you've checked everything except the flapper.

I did take off the heat shields and nothing looked (or felt-for whatever I could reach) backed off - I'll have to pull out a torque wrench and check but I torqued them down to shop-manual specs after tightening them in steps and a criss-crossing pattern so as to get even pressure distribution. I know there's a small exhaust leak as there's some black soot but I believe that's either manifold to turbo or hotside to O2 housing. It's definitely not a large leak and with the engine running you can't see or really even smell anything particularly out of the ordinary.

I'll go down to the car now and pull off the heat shield to re-check. Turbo bolts are still tight (new ARP turbo bolts with the stupidly expensive curved OEM lock washers), which was an issue I had with my 14b as they'd always back out.

Like I said..car was pulling hard and after a stop I gave her in first, pulled and when I shifted into second and stepped on it, no more boost. Something happened during that shift and I don't know what it is.

Any other ideas?

To add:

The WG arm is on and the clip is on - in fact, I just put a new clip on today as a precaution.
There are definitely no rags stuck in pipes as they would've shown themselves right from the get-go rather than at this point...that and I'm very careful to check everything before I put anything back together.
The intake and MAF are clean and solid - honeycombs are all fully intact and in position.
I do not have a cat (empty shell) and have not checked the flex pipe, but exhaust seems to come out freely and the car runs fine other than the fact that it does not build boost.

I did a log today and the max PSI I can get is 1.0 and Link basically shows it as holding it at 1 on a flatline as if I somehow had a 1psi spring and was running wastegate pressure. It does not spike over 1psi at all, not even for a split second.

I would do a boost leak test if I was you

Maybe take a look at the turbo and make sure the blades on both sides are still there, I know that sounds rediculous but it sounds like you have checked everything else

Looks like it time to pull the O2 housing.

Since our boost leak test only turned up those 2 leaks.

Is she still idling ok?

She's still idling okay.

I tried running with no hose on the WG and still no boost. I'm going to pick up the WG from my 14b tonight and maybe swap that in tomorrow to see if it does anything, otherwise the O2 housing will be coming off, unfortunately.

Talk about bad luck...it seems to be all I have with this thing.

Are you shure your not boosting? what are you and Link using as a source? your stock gauge.. mabye its not working. Or something is telling it to cut the boost, try
removing the stock boost solinoid?

No he is not boosting. I doesn't feel like fuel cut at all. His A/F's are good. I can't remember his exact numbers.

I think he needs to open his O2 housing and look at the flapper.

There is NO boost. I have an aftermarket boost gauge and a MAP sensor...believe me, even if I didn't have them to verify, this thing is a 2.slow right now. It can barely hold speed up a hill on the highway it's got so little 'go' right now.

All my numbers look/are good...just no boost.

Going to pull the O2 housing this weekend when I go back home. For now, back to driving the Mazda.

FYI its not uncommon for flapper arms to bend or warp from heat. I've seen a hand full in my day do it. But it doesn't fit with your description of how it happened almost instantaneously. These things usually warp over a little more time if things are running hotter than normal. Strange ......

For sure. I've seen bent arms or flappers that have slid a little off of the dump hole (i.e. shaft slides out a bit, leaving hole not fully covered) but it's odd how it just happened instantly.

Before I pull off the O2 housing this weekend I'm going to try switching to the WG off my 14b and see if that does anything. If not, then O2 housing comes off as it pretty much leaves turbo and/or flapper as the only causes.

Was the head job ok? No more over heating?

Yah...the head job was great. Car runs like a top and no more overheating! (Although she still runs a little warm on the highway).

Once I get my ducting done she should be good to go in that regard.

Honestly...other than this issue with the turbo and the boost leaks I found, the car has been running excellent. No knock issues, no overheating issues...it was actually fun to drive her for the first time ever....for about a week.

Any Boost yet?

Didn't touch the car on the long weekend (needed a break from the bs) and since Wed/Thurs I've been in Barrie for a Formula SAE competition, so, haven't attempted anything more in a few weeks.

It's either the wastegate or something on the turbo (hotside or flapper). That is all that's left.

After not being home and/or not having time (such is the life of a full-time student going away from home for school) I finally have time this weekend to get at 'er.

Tried changing the wastegate to a known working one and nothing - same issue.

I'm fairly confident that everything that can be checked has been checked except for the hot-side and/or flapper, as I really wanted to avoid taking off the O2 housing if possible.

Does anyone have any insight - is it likely that it's one of those? Is there something else I havent checked that I should?

This is frustrating, especially since this is a new (used) turbo from a reputed seller that was sold as being in 'amazing condition'. It worked great for a week or two. =/

My bet is flapper or dead squirrel in the turbine

Took off the O2 housing - found a touch of open/close play in the flapper (when wg arm was attached) - put a washer between the wg and the compressor housing and now the flapper is tight as a nun.

I wonder if this was my problem. Guess it's time to put 'er back together and find out!

I took a bunch of pictures of the flapper/hole, and hotside with my phone (hard to look at it eye-level when it's in the car and the wheel is undamaged and not touching the sides and the flapper/flapper hole look and feel fine - so I'm thinking it's that bit of play.

Will report back soon!

That did NOT fix the boost issues.

To add to this - before I re-assembled everything, the turbo was finally cool enough to stick my hand in and the hotside spun very smoothly and no play/signs of wear. The flapper was shut TIGHT once I added that washer and wouldn't budge.

At this point I'm at a complete loss of what it could be. I've don/tried/checked everything anyone has mentioned or could think of and I still have no boost. It just sounds like wind blowing/'whirring' sound.

This is getting frustrating which - after what I've already been through with this car - is saying a lot.

Anyone???

Try another run with no vacuum hose on the wastegate and see if she builds boost.

Tried it. No dice.

Rob also mentioned that sometimes that 'positioning ring' from the hotside-manifold can crumple, but I'm not using that piece, so no 'luck' there either.

This one's really a head-scratcher.

What gets me is that the car was running amazing and boosting fine and then all of a sudden it stopped boosting when I stepped on it after a shift and has never boosted since.

The car idles well and cruises well, but no boost. =/

So after you did the boost leak test and fixed the leaks the car would hold pressure?

Try using your j-pipe for the pressure source for your boost gauge and see if it seems anything. This is really weird.

Believe me...there is NO boost...changing the souce just makes the response time a little quicker, but when I hold it at 100% throttle from idle to redline in any gear (or off the two-step), it doesn't matter what source...it's not building boost. It is painfully slow.

And yes, other than a small leak at the throttle body shaft seal (gotta order new seals) there are no leaks and it holds pressure.

Are you running a flex section on the down pipe?

No leaks,
closed gate
turbo spins
no obstructions in the manifold/turbo mating area
Timing is good
car idles fine


Start looking for things past the gate..........flex section may have collapsed with fragments blocking flow, ive seen it before. Worth a shot. You said it happened instantly, look into it.

any other exhaust blockages can result in no boost as well.

Sure theres no squirrel in there?

Haha...I'm sure there's no squirrel.

A broken shaft has been suggested - but I've driven 400++ km with the car like this - a broken shaft would've grenaded the turbo by now, not to mention I would've felt it when I pulled on both the compressor and turbine wheels.

A wheel spinning separate from the shaft has also been proposed - but, there were no tell-tale signs of that (didn't try spinning both sides at once)and again, I believe the turbo would've grenaded by this point.

I do have a flex section in the downpipe....I'll have to put her up on blocks tomorrow and take a look in there to see if I can see it...if it's not raining. There's really nothing else past the O2 housing to cause any sort of blockage, as my cat is completely punched out.

The only thing that it might be is bearings gone bad (not bad enough to seize, but bad enough to not build boost/allow it to spin fast). I've read quite a few topics since this started happening that mention this, and everyone seems to report the same whirring sound.

One of many topics on the matter

Time for a bigger Snail if that is the case.

Ghislain

Haha...I had a running/working E16G for all of a few days/week or so...after coming from a shot 14b. If I could afford bigger, I'd love to go bigger - maybe a GTX3071R with DSM housing - but I'm a broke student... I can't even afford a rebuild on the E16G at this point.

I'm looking into options right now...waiting to hear back from the seller before I make a GG/BG post. Once I do (hear back), I'll go from there and decide what to do/get.

Too bad Jamie doesn't have that extra GT30R anymore!



P.S. I guess I should have mentioned this from the start - but the turbo was never able to hold over 16-17PSI steady and at most hit ~22 when it spiked up, so that right there would be indicative of bearing failure as well.

Ryan had the same problem with his car when he first started his build, it was a setting in link. Might not be your problem, but its worth a shot. Something might have accidently got checked or unchecked. If it turns out to not be the turbo, thats where id be checking next.

I've looked through Link and played around with anything I could. Thing is, the car was driving amazing and it stopped building boost while I was driving with no laptop connected, so it'd have to have been a freak occurrence. Do you know what the setting was? Like I said - I did check everything in Link, but with so many settings, it's entirely possible I missed something. (Although nothing had been changed).

To add to this - I tried different tunes I had saved on my computer...nothing changed whatsoever (in terms of boost).

Looking through Link, I noticed that during my drive yesterday there are 2 DTC codes showing now.

0013 - Intake Air Temperature Circuit Malfunction
0025 - Barometric Pressure Circuit Malfunction

Could this have anything to do with my problems? Any ideas what could be causing this?

(Both these are wired stock ATM...as I have not yet wired in my IAT and my MAP is wired to my EGR).

Blockage/damaged maf?

Maybe a dislodged honeycomb. That would certainly restrict flow and could have damaged the maf. Easy one to check off the list. Also easy to fix. Go SD.

Checked the MAF before I put the car away and the honeycombs were all intact and in place. Believe me, I went through *everything* trying to figure out this issue and nothing.

Also, I have the IAT in the TB elbow...I've just been too lazy to splice the wire from the MAF and hook it up.

Try locking the IAT temperature (setting in link) and using the MAP instead of your Baro sensor, I wouldn't drive around like this but you can at least check if the car builds pressure like this.

I would lock IAT as Bryan suggested, toss in a basic VE table, switch MAF to SD then pull the intake pipe off the compressor. Have someone open the throttle wide open so that you're on the 2-step and watch the turbo to see if it's spinning.
Just be absolutely sure there is nothing in front that could get sucked into the turbo.

I thought of this too when reading this. I think the firing order was inverted in Link or something? caused the same issues.

What about your Cat? I pulled mine off a couple weeks ago, it was demolished. and the downpipe dumped out a few 2"x2" pieces that were probably wedged sideways... caused stupid boosting issues.

His cat is a straight pipe essentially. Ryans version of link was used and pre programmed for a different set up. I think it was inverted CAS or something like that. If its not mechanical, it has to be electronic. I just thought of this because with ryans car we went through 4-5 turbos before we figured it out by accident really. WE never even suspected Link at first.

Interesting addition to make. Car has been sitting for the better part of a month and a half (have only touched it one weekend since I put it away) and she started up beautifully, but I noticed she is now burning oil. This was never an issue from the time I rebuilt her to when I put her away last, but now if I'm stopped I can give the car a little gas and white/gray smoke comes out and it STINKS like a car burning oil. It goddamn reeks.

Even sitting at a light just idling I can smell it and see some white smoke sometimes. Not sure how it all of a sudden started burning oil just from sitting but now I need to figure out what could be causing this and if there's any relation to my boost issues.

Gonna sleep and get up in a few hours to start tearing into her.

Journal bearings?

I was thinking that may very well be it, especially since a lot of people have had my issue (same sounds, etc.) and had it be the bearing.

If it would stop raining I could get 'er up on jackstands and pull the turbo and swap on my old 14b and see. The 14b burns oil, but it boosts.

Figured I'd update everyone. I've been running my old 14b with no issues ever since this happened.

A week or two ago I ordered an FP E16G CHRA, so I figured I would take the old one out of the compressor housing.

I was a little surprised when I saw this:



Clearly the chunk must have been missing before I ever got the turbo because:

1) I still have an engine left (that has had thousands of km put on since)
2) Have found no metal in my oil during oil changes
3) It would never build much boost (don't think I ever got it over 20, if even that high)
4) It whirred like a jet engine whenever it did spool up...for the day or two that it ran before blowing to sh!t

I've still yet to post a 'bad guy' post, but be weary of Danny Falardeau/HP Auto. Calling him a lying scumbag would be a compliment at this point.

thats not even as nice as my coffee table ornamient 14b.

Those fins are looking pretty bad. I guess you wouldn't be able to see that with the housing still on. What would cause something like that? I think it's usually the hot side that gets messed up.

It was probably the retarded amout of shaft play. Salomon just wiggled it in my driveway and it sounded like a bag of marbles. The compressor wheel probably hit the recess of the cartridge housing and broke off.

I think the missing chunk caused the play (due to it now being out of balance). When I got it it did have some play (not as much) but I chalked that up to be due to it sitting for a long time with no oil in it. Unbalanced turbo + play = BOOM pretty quickly, seemingly.

Bryan, the fins did look a little better before they got cozy with the compressor housing, but yah, there are some nicks and all that other crap.

While I've got the compressor housing off I figure I'll tap it for a boost nipple.

Salomon, I would DEFINITELY check the intercooler before anything. Chances are, with a chunk that size, it's stuck in the inlet of the intercooler and never made it to the engine. Can't hurt to look because if it's stuck there, can't be good for the future.

It would of had to hit to cause the missing chunk. Yes it would be very badly inbalanced now, but I bet you had more play then you think you did before you bolted that thing on.

That had to of been out of balance for quite some time to break a piece like that off... Well, at least you solved the mystery

Good point on the intercooler. Pull that bad boy off and flush it. I'd hate to see a "motor blew up, not sure why" thread because of a little piece of metal. Keep the wheel though, that's a trophy of frack ups.

I was thinking about the intercooler and how there's a chance it could be in there.

I don't think it's likely, but I'll check when I've got the car apart to install my 'new' turbo this weekend.

The car has probably at least 3500-4000km on it (if not more) since I took that turbo off, so it's even less likely for there to be a piece still sitting there, but again, I'll definitely check.

I didn't take a picture, but you can see on the inside of the compressor housing where the piece came off and scraped it.


Johnny, I'll be coming this whole CHRA as a little momento. Maybe I should hang it from my rear view mirror

shitty deal salomon 16g will be a nice upgrade though

I think this was meant for one of the FS threads with the Garrett turbos

That being said, anyone with an E16G should look into this:

http://store.forcedperformance.net/...uct_Code=FPCHRAEVO3&Category_Code=SP

$300 for a brand new E16G CHRA. Mitsu wheels & shaft combined with some FP hardware. If you have the compressor and turbine housings, you've got a brand new E16G for $300. Or just get your 14b compressor covered machined to fit the 16g and call it a day.






Hahaha...caught your mistake before you fixed it And, that WAS an Evo 3 16G...lasted me all of a few days...on a fresh rebuild (engine) too. Imagine if it would've taken the engine =/ I'd rather not think about it.

hahahahah ok you got me!!!


think i need to go to bed now, gotta work in the AM anyway

Just another tid-bit of info, I talked to Micheal from FP and he told me if you buy more than 10 they sell for 275$ a pop. Just in case you guys want to do a group buy. Extreme PSI also has a new batch of Evo 16gs (all, not just the CHRA) for 800 on tuners.

Too bad Ziggy is out of town. I could see it being something worthwhile for him.

If I hadn't already ordered one (it's waiting at the border for me to pick up), then I'd be down for a group buy. I'm sure there are plenty of people here who would be in on it, though.

That's still a great price for a new unit.