Lets start a thread dedicated to lapping days and guys tracking there cars on the road course. i'll keep you guys informed about lapping days i will be attending to hopefully get a group together (cough...Daren, Rob, cough)

No drag racing talk!

Lets start with hearing everyones road course experiences and tracks they've driven on.

My Cooper S has around 1000km of tracking at Shannonville, Mosport DDT and Cayuga over the last 3yrs. And maybe about 6 dozen off track experiences...lol

Its been nearly 7 years since Ive driven at Shannon-ville. Haven't ever lapped anywhere else.

Ive been spending the last year and a half tearing down and rebuilding a DSM for THIS VERY PURPOSE. To be able to take the abuse of 30 - 40 minutes of hard driving. Im not looking for high horse power goals. Rather reliability and handling are my main concerns.

The big question isnt will my car perform, but rather do I have the balls to use it like its built;) Im pretty confident in my build and will put my money on this car and a good driver any day.

Im a big GO, and personally think about my first track day in this car every day. "I cant wait" is a huge understatement.

I'm building towards this aswell. I want to drag my car a couple times to see my foundation and see where my car stacks up to others..The real test is in how it will perform and how reliable it will perform lapping.

I'm seriously considering swapping to a full coil over this season. I think it's a must.

This would be a first for me so I can't comment on previous experience other than a couple 1/4 mile passes with my SiR which ran 14's like no body's business LOL

Haven't actually had the Talon on a road course yet, but I have autox'ed it in addition to plenty of that nonsense straight line stuff.

In my Mazda (3 Sport) I've got a number of summers and quite a few events under my belt. Mainly Mosport DDT and Shannonville. Either SRTA lapping events or the ones Shannonville puts on independently as well as some other stuff.

I didn't get to hit the track (not a road course, anyway) at all last summer due to financial issues but in the 2 summers prior to that I probably put on about 1500+km on my Mazda at the aforementioned events/locations.




If you're too chicken to do it, I'll toss her around for you.

Im not opposed, to it, as long as Im in the passenger seat

I wouldnt say Im chicken though. Im a pretty aggressive driver, and confident I'll be one with my machine after some good one on one time.

What scares me is suspension tuning. Think engine tuning is hard to get your head around? Man oh man, thats noting compared to setting up a complete overhauled suspension. Every change and adjustment affects everything else. How do you begin!! ??

The more I read and research, the more I cringe!

Knowing the ins and outs of your car really is a huge part of it. A good driver will be able to take any car and put up a good (relative) time, but knowing all the nuances will truly allow you to focus on driving the track, and not driving the car.

If I were to drive her, I don't think I could rightly kick you out of your own car even if I wanted to (not that I would). Hahaha...I'm always good to go for sit-alongs as well to aid with pointers and what-not, although my abilities in the driver seat do not translate well to in-car coaching. Teaching is not my forte.



Suspension setup is INSANE. I want to learn the ins and outs of it and really set up a monster, but there is SO much to know and so much to test/adjust/etc. Given my student budget, I've never had a car with adjustable anything except sway bars, so I've never really had much to tinker around with. I do look forward to the day, though, as much as I dread it.

This is what Sam and I are using the WRX for. Hoping to get some tires for it this year and start to learn what the car can do in stock form around the circuit track.

Last summer was a right off for me also for lapping days because i was away so much for work. This year i will likely do more but the costs do get up there with tires, fuel and entrance fees.

I keep telling Rob his car will scare the crap out of him all year long till he builds up the confidence to drive it near its potential.

Riding shot gun makes me sick. I hate ride alongs.

It does add up. And in the Talon it's going to be WAY worse for gas. 94 and it'll drink it like no tomorrow. At least in my Mazda I can get probably ~150km driving at the limit. I'd probably get half that in the Talon. Gas+Food+Tracking Fees = $250 on the best of days.

I've been itching to try the Mosport Big Track...now that I actually have a car with some power I can finally justify it. Except Big Track lapping days are like $350-$500, usually, just for the lapping fees.



Before I get to mention it - HEEL-TOE. Everyone should teach themselves this and master it. Just make sure you're not accidentally pressing the brakes less (than you would if you were only braking) when you do it, as most people tend to do without realizing it.

To add to this. Copied from this post here: http://www.ca.dsm.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=394621&#Post394621

I've done some lapping at Shannonville and Mosport DDT, but never in a DSM. I've done Mosport DDT in a Formula 2000 Car for one of their driving course which was ridiculously fun. My leg was shaking from adrenaline for half an hour after. Otherwise mostly in my former Miata. Hoping to get out to some events in the Bimmer this year.

I agree with Saloman that you shouldn't feel the need to optimize anything before you go to an event. You can have a great time in a stock shitbox as long as you don't have too much ego about getting passed by a better driver in an even slower shitbox

FYI there are autox events on the Mosport DDT once or twice a year. That's a great way to ease into it without spending much money or abusing the car too much.

I want a Miata soo bad as a track car. Thats right, then I'll own a Mini and a Miata....

Ive been practicing this in my daily drivers while getting around town, and taking off ramps and such.

Well F me, this is the hardest thing Ive ever had to practice. I still suck after a year of trying it every other day.

Salomon,

May help out with the financials.

http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/111...rograms-for-canadian-motorsports-in-2013

SRTA plus Mazda

Also makes me think we should put my simulator back together and i'll bring my PS3 into Brightside. Productivity approaching zero......

I have a question. What are the guys with DSM's who track their cars doing for heat soak problems?

Im on the fence about putting vents in my hood. Even with ceramic coated exhaust components and blankets, Im worried Im gonna melt stuff.

Its not like drag racing when your done in a few seconds, beating your car up for 20 or more minutes at a time can get it pretty hot!

Pedal location is a BIG one. I find it hard to do reliably in my Talon but extremely easy in my Mazda. In my Talon I wear my workboots so I get a bit wider base to even be able to do it at all as the gas and brake are too far for me. I may have to weld on an extra piece or machine some sort of extension, because I had my foot slip off during a heel-toe while auto-xing and it almost got messy very quickly.

When I got my Mazda, I had never driven standard - my dad threw me the keys and said go for it. I knew the entire process, but only in theory. I told myself from day 1 I would ALWAYS rev-match, and I always have; never do I ever slip the clutch to downshift. That is the first step in being able to heel-toe. After that it was just getting used to braking and pressing gas at the same time and further to that, the right amount of brake/gas modulation.

I heel-toe/rev-match all my downshifts on a daily basis, the more you do it, the better you'll get it. It just takes practice, like any aspect of becoming a good driver. But like I said, make sure you can confidently and comfortably rev-match downshift before venturing into heel-toe. If someone has a GoPro they want to lend (2 would be even better), I can make a video showing it, although there are plenty out there. Or you're all welcome to come for a ride, although you won't be able to see much of my feet.



I saw that, but I'm going to be doing my best to make it there with my Talon this summer. The Mazda has seen better days and will need some coin dropped into it if I'm going to feel comfortable beating it as hard as I do. Coin that I'd sooner drop into the Talon.



This is why I haven't tracked her yet. My temps rise a lot even after a pass down the 1/4 mile. Doing the Auto-X at the SO this past summer was hard enough on my temps. I'm planning to do extensive ducting in/around/through the front bumper, but after that I don't know what else to do.

Also hoping to install some custom brake cooling ducts through my front fog light holes, since these cars are heavy and the brakes only so-so.


We need to ask Scott Mcintyre (SP?). I know he extensively tracks his 2G and has done a lot to make it reliable and trackworthy. Anyone talk to him?

You need some of that fancy gold heat reflective tape.

This guy came up with a wicked solution.

http://www.dsmlink.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54543&highlight=gurney

Had this in my saved threads - completely forgot about it, though. Going to be working on getting the air to/through the rad first, and then focus on what happens after that, as right now I feel like my FMIC is blocking WAY too much of the air flow to the rad.

GoPro could be made available.

about time we started talking about proper use of a dsm!

Rob, cooling- with a 14b at 18psi I could get away with no major problem, just an aluminum rad upgrade.

with an evo iii 16g at 20psi I get warm after about 20-25 minutes of chasing my buddies miata on a really hot day. I threw in a hood vent for fun and it makes a big difference, keeps the heat away from the fire wall so i stopped melting sh!t! just a touch of water injection would probably make a huge difference, I'll try that next, means i can run more boost. my old engine ran cooler, my new one has blow by which doesn't help temps.

other than that i wrapped all of my exhaust stuff and then made aluminum shields wrapped in heat wrap to replace the oem exhaust shrouds (especially important for the alternator, they melt quick with no protection).

oh, and make sure you remove your air cond radiator

Funny you mention that, cause my car runs hot with a 14b on the highway or after 1 pass down the drag strip, let alone after lapping. Autox-ing at the SO was the limit of what I could do. I've got an aluminum rad with shroud and dual slim fans. No ducting, currently, but in the works. Thinking of heat wrapping my downpipe in hopes of helping, but I can't imagine that's going to drop my temps down significantly.

Oh yah, no AC, no P/S cooler, etc.

But, got a VRSF FMIC which probably blocks most, if not all of my airflow to the rad, hence my push for ducting.

also best $ spent on dsm handling is fr/rr rmdsm sway bars. makes the car pretty neutral in most conditions and is a good base to work from.

from there camber/caster/toe oh wait you can't do that:) max caster you can get is $$$, makes huge difference but is difficult on oem dsms, especially since dsm's like the minimum front camber you can get away with (due probably to awd, maybe track width too?). I played around a lot and found any thing over 2 deg fr camber made for loss of front traction under power and nasty road manners to boot.

but for those of us with some extra caster laying around and improved camber curve...2 deg is more than enough (works well for autox, have't tried it on the track, may want a bit less). I'm still on stock shocks/dampers though so things could change a bit on stiffer springs

hmm, wrapping down pipe and ducting is important, also make sure no exhaust leaks up there.

Those slim fans are complete garbage, get OEM shrouded ones if you can.

If you are running that hot in a drag or autocross on a 14b (assuming you don't have it set way outside of its efficiency range) you've got a fundamental problem. The OEM system should have no problem with that.

Wrapping the downpipe will be done very soon, as will ducting.

I think I still have one of the OE fans (the car only had one on it when I got it) but not the other. I'd like to pick up some FAL or SPAL fans but they are pricey!

I think the biggest part of my problem is airflow, because even on the highway she runs pretty warm and I'm really not in boost that much, or not very much boost, although with a 14b it's usually just under 0 vacuum/boost when cruising in the 120's. I've got an E16G now, but that got put on right before the end of the season so haven't really seen any road/course time with it.

As for exhaust leaks, I think there may be a very slight one but until I can get a new manifold (and ideally turbine housing), it will never seal 100% perfectly.

Do you really think the oem shrouds pull better air then let's say a mishimoto shroud kit?

Like this one;


Also, when running a road coarse, wouldn't it be a good idea to run "fans full time" using link v3?

I sometimes do it on really hot days and it helps keep the temps in the 180*-190* mark.

I have a pretty much identical setup (aluminum shroud, dual slim fans) and my fans are always on (1Gs use a temp switch, but I wired mine to a toggle switch under my dash, so I keep them on all the time whenever it's hot - ie always).

If you're on a road course, definitely keep them on at all times (or using Link, set your temp threshold low, which will effectively keep them on at all times).

Wish my temps stayed in the 180-190 mark for anything longer than a split second!

Ok, and how "important" is an oil cooler would you say?

For Autox/drag racing/DD...not too important. For road course/lapping, I'd say very important on a turbocharged car. I know I won't be doing any lapping until I get my oil cooler installed.

I'd recommend it for any turbo car in general, but particularly those being driven hard.

I don't personally have numbers to back this up, but I'm pretty sure I've seen comparisons done with data and numbers on either Tuners and or ECM forums. Either way, a well placed oil cooler is going to help keep oil temperatures down quite a bit and indirectly (or directly, depending on what kind of OFH, turbo, etc. you have) keep coolant temps down as well. Not to mention, adding the cooler and lines to the system increases oil capacity therefore increasing overall heat capacity of the oil system.

Figured that aswell! Good info as usual Sal, thank you!

I know the perfect spot to mount one if I do buy and install one this coming season.

I think you have convinced me to grab an oil cooler, I was back and forth about it over the summer, but I think I will pull the trigger after the winter.

Oil coolers definitely make a big difference in temps. i'll be adding one to the Mini before next season. Oil capacity also helps with keeping temps down as Salomon says indirectly.

The stroker 4g63 I'm building will have a moroso extra capacity oil pan and an external oil cooler. Oil capacity should be approaching 9L.

I m the guy with a 600 dollar PS3 racing seat/wheel/clutch/shifter setup and likes to play alot of racing!
Taking the eclipse to do the cayuga road course was some of the best fun I ve had in life haha. I ve been heel toe shifting it as long as I can remember, and on PS3 too. It is actually easer to heel toe the eclipse than the simulator. I was pleasantly suprised how natural my first time on the track felt! Amazed the eclipse put up with it too, was already burning oil and smoking so I was like eff it and gave it sh!t. Did crazy downshifts and revved the hell out of it and it still trooped on. Makes me that much more excited and driven to keep going at my current build.
I too might be scared of my car when I am finished lmao!
All my best friends have every intention to race their cars. Rob gripper from here now has his RX8 in tear down after tracking with me, and we blew the engine on the highway. That thing will be nuts too. He wants to turbo it.
Between all that and driving supercars in vegas, it sure has been hella awesome graduating from the living room and gran turismo 5 haha.

I run a switch to my fans so I can keep them on all the time,easier then booting up link.

Oil coolers are good insurance but I don't think they are strictly necessary. Your oil and coolant temps are usually pretty close after 10 or 15 minutes. With a coolant to oil cooler your temps should stay in the butter zone as long as you have good coolant temps. Remember that low oil temps are JUST AS BAD as high oil temps, the entire oil system was built to run at 200-210F. A bit lower is OK, but below 190F (thermistat temp) I suspect things will be out of their design range. Ever notice you turbo whines a bit until the car is warm? That is oil viscosity changing with temp!

From what I've heard you are probably better off with a trans cooler (yes for manuals), though again, if your coolant temps are under control your trans temps will be not TOO bad (aluminum bell housing connected to engine means everything runs around the same temp after you get warm) but according to my research spraying cooler oil on the gears will help them not explode.

Another helpful thing to do is wrap your coolant pipe with something like this.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Thermo+Tec/893/14020/10002/-1

Interesting Tyler, Never thought of that.
I have however wrapped some of my charge pipe with DEI Cool Tape

I worry about adding the oil cooler to my Mini. Its my Daily during the winter and have the same thought of the oil staying too cold or extend warm up times. I have a thermostat that i would like to put inline for bypassing the oil cooler until required temperature is reached.

I've driven aggressivly around the mall parking lot several time, does that count?

My turning experience is limited to driving a legends race car around an oval track, 10+ years ago. Looking forward to finally getting out & turning some corners this year. I wanted to get out last summer, but didn't seem to find the time, hopefully this year will be better.

Though, I do think I likely now have too much turbo, for any of the tracks I would run on. I can say one thing for sure, I will not be running 35psi on the 82HTA first time on the track

You don't have too much power until you can spin the wheels from apex to apex. Then you just need more grip!